Receiver DAC Question

[dendrite]

 
Thank you! This is exactly what I was looking for--something to help cut through the fog regarding the lack of scientific data and complex scientific explanations justifying $30,000 DACs. Your reasoning for concentrating on cans and speakers makes perfect sense, too. I ended up with the HD600s because of a really good deal and I heard they were neutral, which I figured would be good as my first pair of quality cans.

Excellent. And you balance them (HD 600s) out with warm amplification from tubes.
I have the warmer HD 6xx's : HD650s so I can amp/dac them with my brighter Yamaha Receiver. Same goes for my Martin Logan towers (tuned warm) w/ bright amp/dac Yamaha.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Thanks for the info, PurpleAngel. You're right that the Yamaha has plenty of power for the HD600s. I hear the headphone output is also a cheap addition, a rumor much like the one regarding the DAC. This was originally why I was investigating headphone amps, but what really intrigued me was hearing tube amps produce slightly different audio. I've heard my laptop has an optical out via the headphone jack, but I've never tried it out. I figure if HDMI outputs the same quality audio, it's the easiest connection for me to currently use with my laptop, which also has an integrated HDMI port.
I'm a bit confused by a few of your statements:
If there's no hard evidence regarding the quality of the Yamaha DAC, yet there is some evidence suggesting differences in solid-state amps (my receiver) and tube amps (Valhalla 2), why would I consider forgetting an amp and getting a high-quality dedicated DAC instead?
Also, thanks for the Monoprice link. Any thoughts on how those cables compare to PYST? I saw in another thread you recommend Monoprice, and in my experience, Monoprice has never let me down--but the price difference leaves me concerned.

 
I'm not against you buying a Valhalla 2 (or other) tube headphone amplifier, just trying to figure out (best guess) what is the best improvement that go along with your current hardware, for a given amount of money.
You right, there is no hard evidence about the quality of DACs in the Yamaha receiver, Yamaha claims there burr-brown DAC chip, but will not state the model number of the DAC chips.
Yamaha claims the DAC chips are 24-bit/192K, which does not really mean a lot to me, one of the last Blu-ray movies disks I watch had audio tracks that were 16-bit/48K, so not much really takes advantage of 24-bit/192k anyway.
I'm just not big spending a lot of cash for cables, so Monoprice's "premium" cables is as much as I would spend for cables.

 

[PurpleAngel]

  I've spent hours trying to find a verdict on a question, but I think the only way to get a straight answer is to ask it here. Here's my current home equipment:
Sennheiser HD 600
Yamaha RX-V675
Macbook Pro running BitPerfect
Source material ranges, but I am currently importing ALAC from CDs and purchasing ALAC files from HD music sites.
I hope this wasn't too confusing--I know my head is spinning a bit. Thanks in advance for any feedback!

 
Audio-GD NFB-15, $270 + shipping ($45).
USB, optical & coaxial inputs.
Dual WM8741 DAC chips.
Headphone amplifier with plenty of power.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1532/NFB15.32EN.htm

 

[dendrite]

   
I'm not against you buying a Valhalla 2 (or other) tube headphone amplifier, just trying to figure out (best guess) what is the best improvement that go along with your current hardware, for a given amount of money.
You right, there is no hard evidence about the quality of DACs in the Yamaha receiver, Yamaha claims there burr-brown DAC chip, but will not state the model number of the DAC chips.
Yamaha claims the DAC chips are 24-bit/192K, which does not really mean a lot to me, one of the last Blu-ray movies disks I watch had audio tracks that were 16-bit/48K, so not much really takes advantage of 24-bit/192k anyway.
I'm just not big spending a lot of cash for cables, so Monoprice's "premium" cables is as much as I would spend for cables.

So you're essentially claiming Yamaha is lying about an IC that is perfectly identifiable by taking the top of the case of the Receiver off?
Something that could get them sued into oblivion over a $7 IC.
Essentially there is no logic or facts backing such an unfounded theory.

The Yamaha receivers that have Burr-down (TI DACs) have burr-down DACs. 
(End of this story). If you want more detail, take the top case off, read off the model of the IC, go to TI's site and read the detailed spec sheet that details what makes it a high quality D/A IC and compare it to other industry D/A ICs

As for what takes advantage of 24-bit/192k, go browse the web for studio master tracks that are encoded at that bit-rate, put it on a usb stick, plug it into the USB port on the receiver and play it. Plug the HDMi-out port of the AVR into a TV, navigate to the data panel and confirm the output rate is 24-bit/192khz. Aside from that, FLAC releases are typically north of the standard bit-rate.

 
There is no science behind the ridiculous premium cables sold by most manufactures, it's spec'd gauge copper wrapped in plastic. It does nothing to change your audio characteristics short of how pure the copper is and how oxygen free the wrapping is. Proof? Google the many scientific tests done on so called 'premium' cables that show they are no different than other regular cables.

 

[dendrite]

   
Audio-GD NFB-15, $270 + shipping ($45).
USB, optical & coaxial inputs.
Dual WM8741 DAC chips.
Headphone amplifier with plenty of power.
http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/Headphoneamp/NFB1532/NFB15.32EN.htm

So you claim wildly illogical things about a proven and known brand and then promote some niche enthusiast amp/dac combo ..
A large volume trusted brand has quality control and departments that check for fraud in ICs. They stand to lose a lot more than a small shop selling boxes from China.
An example of the extent to which components can be fradulently concealed : 
https://www.sparkfun.com/news/350

This is a clear case of why you go with large volume proven names... They have whole departments that sniff out junk like this.
If some small shop claims they make a product that performs better than the big boys, they better be supplying charts/data and reasons why.
If my Yamaha RX-675 is good enough to drive my high-end Martin Logan speakers w/ 24bit/192Khz content at -2db and massage my ears, i'm sure it can handle driving some Sennheiser cans. 

This obsession w/ pricey stand-alone DACs/Amp combos in the age of AVR receivers baffles me everyday just like the snake-oil cables.
If someone claims X is better than an industry standard, they better prove it.
 
* Goes for final burn in of his HD-650s with Tool Salival @ -10DB on his Yamaha RX-675
 
P.S - If joe-bob made equipment that was so much better, they'd be the 'yamaha' of the industry. 

 

[PurpleAngel]

  So you're essentially claiming Yamaha is lying about an IC that is perfectly identifiable by taking the top of the case of the Receiver off?
Something that could get them sued into oblivion over a $7 IC.
Essentially there is no logic or facts backing such an unfounded theory.

The Yamaha receivers that have Burr-down (TI DACs) have burr-down DACs. 
(End of this story). If you want more detail, take the top case off, read off the model of the IC, go to TI's site and read the detailed spec sheet that details what makes it a high quality D/A IC and compare it to other industry D/A ICs

As for what takes advantage of 24-bit/192k, go browse the web for studio master tracks that are encoded at that bit-rate, put it on a usb stick, plug it into the USB port on the receiver and play it. Plug the HDMi-out port of the AVR into a TV, navigate to the data panel and confirm the output rate is 24-bit/192khz. Aside from that, FLAC releases are typically north of the standard bit-rate.

 
There is no science behind the ridiculous premium cables sold by most manufactures, it's spec'd gauge copper wrapped in plastic. It does nothing to change your audio characteristics short of how pure the copper is and how oxygen free the wrapping is. Proof? Google the many scientific tests done on so called 'premium' cables that show they are no different than other regular cables.

 
I never said Yamaha lied about anything, Yamaha claims they use Burr-Brown DAC that are 24-bit/192K, i would just like to know which model DAC chip is used in a which Yamaha receiver, Texas Instruments lists 60 DAC chips on their website.
And no one seems to have taken the time to open up all the difference Yamaha receivers and posted which of those 60 DAC chips is used in which receiver (assuming several difference models of DAC chips are used, depending on the price of the receiver).
So i can only speculate on what DAC chips are used in the receivers, if you wish to open up all the Yamaha receiver and list which DAC chips are used, please do so. i would very much like those facts, so please provide them.

 

[Fabula84]

   
I'm not against you buying a Valhalla 2 (or other) tube headphone amplifier, just trying to figure out (best guess) what is the best improvement that go along with your current hardware, for a given amount of money.
You right, there is no hard evidence about the quality of DACs in the Yamaha receiver, Yamaha claims there burr-brown DAC chip, but will not state the model number of the DAC chips.
Yamaha claims the DAC chips are 24-bit/192K, which does not really mean a lot to me, one of the last Blu-ray movies disks I watch had audio tracks that were 16-bit/48K, so not much really takes advantage of 24-bit/192k anyway.
I'm just not big spending a lot of cash for cables, so Monoprice's "premium" cables is as much as I would spend for cables.

I gotcha. Thank you for your feedback. I have a few 24/192 files, but most of my stuff maxes out at 24/96. Processing 24/192 files isn't necessary for me, but it would be nice. Its more important than DSD compatibility, which I haven't even started to contemplate yet. I figure, as I piece this together, I can post a few of my impressions here. Thanks again!

 

[dendrite]

   
I never said Yamaha lied about anything, Yamaha claims they use Burr-Brown DAC that are 24-bit/192K, i would just like to know which model DAC chip is used in a which Yamaha receiver, Texas Instruments lists 60 DAC chips on their website.
And no one seems to have taken the time to open up all the difference Yamaha receivers and posted which of those 60 DAC chips is used in which receiver (assuming several difference models of DAC chips are used, depending on the price of the receiver).
So i can only speculate on what DAC chips are used in the receivers, if you wish to open up all the Yamaha receiver and list which DAC chips are used, please do so. i would very much like those facts, so please provide them.

Here's one of the chips that was visible through the grill (of note is the BB symbol) highlighting that it's a burr brown chip : 
http://www.ti.com/product/PCM9211/technicaldocuments
Here's how it fits into an architecture : 

 
Edit : Spotted the DACs : (BB PCM5101) 
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/pcm5101.pdf
Go Figure, it's over-spec'd 
 
PCM5101 32-bit 384kHz 106dB

Hope this gives you the info you needed
Head-fi Discussion : http://www.head-fi.org/t/519142/pcm1792a-vs-wm8741-which-is-better
Even learned something myself. Thanks for inspiring a deeper dig into this area.

Given the considerable complexity and variance of the DAC circuitry, I am even more content having gone with a large volume manufacturer with a senior audio engineering staff, quality control, and long history in audio who tune the various parameters to make their 'signature sound' which I love. 
 
At the end of the day, your ears don't lie. Go with what sounds best to you.
Having cranked this receiver to -3db in 'Pure Direct mode' to Tool Salival driving 4 Ohm Martin Logan towers, I am more than happy with it's sound quality at extremely high volumes. 
 
Sound stage is out of this world .. Or maybe I was that night
*Cheers Purp
 

 

[alitomr]

I was going to start a thread to shout out how lousy the headphone amp in my otherwise beloved Yamaha RX-V675. It is not lousy. It is hideous!!  I don't know how yamaha puts something of so low quality in a such a nice piece of audio equipment. WOW. 
 
Last night I bought a HD600 and have been reading like crazy about amps and dac for it. I am considering many options, mostly around Schiit product line. But just a couple hours ago I realized I have a Behringer Xexyx Q502USB that I bought to host karaokes and as an input device to calibrate my sound system. So I decided to check both the USB DAC with my laptop and the headphone amplifier connecting my AVR pre-outs to the 2track inputs of the behringer mixer. 
 
First thing I noticed, this mixer headphone out is massive. It must have damaged a bit my hearing when I first plugged it, because my HD595 were extremely, extremely loud. When I checked the volume knob for the headphones it was barely passed 12 (half power). WOW.  
 
The sound coming using the USB DAC and this HD595 was very strong, and in your face. I noticed a strong emphasis on the mids, as vocals were very present, even overpowered. the EQ options in the mixer doesnt seem to work when using the USB, so there was nothing I could do and couldnt try the EQ and effects to see how they sound. I decided to connect the V675 to the inputs of the Q502USB mixer. This was important to me because I have been asking myself the same question of OP: Does Yamaha really make a lesser DAC in their mainstream receivers than what, for instance, Schiit and JDS do???  They might, but I am inclined to think it is unlikely. Sooo, when I plugged the AVR- preouts to the mixer, the sound was very very nice. Probably more balanced than the what the internal USB dac produces. I did noticed a very very weak bass, but more than it being absolutely weak, I think it's more FLAT, and I am now used to running the subs (in main audio system- speakers) about 3-4dB hot. So the sound was nice. Good. 
 
I then wen to the headphone output. JESUSCHRIST. BASSAHOLIiC PARADISE. WOW. The sound is soo bad I don't know how to describe it, other than say that the bass spills all over, making the headphones sound as if they have a wall in front. Absolutely terrible.
 
My HD600 should be here soon (friday). I am now ordering a pair of 1/4" to RCA cables to be able to connect the preouts of the receiver to the inputs of the mixer, and tweak the sound a bit using the mixer and its effects (I just want to add a little more bass, maybe). 
 
The other test I will be doing is comparing the internal DAC of the RX-V675 and the DAC of the Behringer Xenyx Q502USB, because I haven't concluded anything from barely an hour of testing. 
 
Just stay away from the headphone output of the Yamaha RX-V675. Now i understand why all of the sudden I stopped listening to music with my HD595. The yamaha is just terrible handling headphones. Being so bad at it should be illegal, ***!!!.
 
To end in  a more positive note, the Behringer mixer has SOOOOO much power on its headphone output it's crazy. Funny so many features for only 60USD in amazon. 
 
Equipment I am considering testing:
 
Schiit Modi 2 Uber
Schiit Magni 2 Uber
Schiit Valhalla 2
Schiit Asgard 2. 
NuForce HA-200
Audioengine D1
 
I just have doubts the DAC could provide a real improvement, but we'll see soon. 

 

[alitomr]

BTW, Someone said you have to be using analog sources in order to use the preouts in the RX-v675. That is false. I am using mine as I type this with Spotify and the PS4. 
 
EDIT: NO, APPARENTLY I WAS USING THE PS3 WITH THE ANALOG CONNECTION AND THE RECEIVER'S SPOTIFY CONNECT, WHICH OUTPUTS A SIGNAL TO THE AV-PREOUTS. THE RX-V675 DOES NOT OUTPUT TO THE PREOUTS WHEN THE INPUT IS FROM HDMI. I HAVENT TESTED THE REST OF THE DIGITAL INPUTS.

 

[The Singularious]

BTW, Someone said you have to be using analog sources in order to use the preouts in the RX-v675. That is false. I am using mine as I type this with Spotify and the PS4.

EDIT: NO, APPARENTLY I WAS USING THE PS3 WITH THE ANALOG CONNECTION AND THE RECEIVER'S SPOTIFY CONNECT, WHICH OUTPUTS A SIGNAL TO THE AV-PREOUTS. THE RX-V675 DOES NOT OUTPUT TO THE PREOUTS WHEN THE INPUT IS FROM HDMI. I HAVENT TESTED THE REST OF THE DIGITAL INPUTS.

Sorry to raise this thread from the dead, but I am pondering the exact thing with my RX-1050, with Zone 2 output.

Just so I understand, assuming it behaves the same way as the 675, I will *not* be able to run a small tube amplifier (<- this is my goal to be able to use the Yamaha DAC and keep all my inputs, but have a different/better sound on my headphones) out of Zone 2 if any of my input sources are digital. Is that correct? And if so, why would Yamaha design that in such a way that only analog inputs would output to Zone 2? Bizarre.