[msflsim]

Hi, just my opinion after couple of weeks with shure's E5..
When i first got them (coming from er6i) the first thing that i noticed was that the treble was 'rolled' off quite a bit..

Now, i wondered why the hell would Shure do that in the first place..everything else seems to be ok, the bass response and midrange (soundwise).

I now think i know why they did that..read on.

The reason for their robust body and cable is b/c E5's were designed in mind for on stage performers, which is fine..BUT..everybody was probably on a stage performing or just listening and thats when it hit me..
The E5's are very powerfull IEM's (u dont realise that until u actually turn the volume up quite a bit and listen like that for a while)
The 'thump' and 'oompf' that these provide at higher volume levels is incredible..
For musicians the bassline or the drum kick response is the only thing that will ensure they will stay in rhytm with the band.

So if u have your E5's loud enough so that u can hear that thump and kick(which e5's deliver without any problems) if the treble wasnt 'rolled off' you would go deaf (after a prolonged time of course times rehearsals and live concerts)

Treble doesnt equal detail, but shrill and crisp treble is very dangerous if used at louder volume levels (personal experience)

Now i 'understand' the E5's and im glad its like that..just my two pence..
of course i could be wrong and its only my opinion.

 

[PTheD]

The rolled off treble is the first thing, if what you assert about the design of the 5 series is correct, that I would have thought that Shure would have changed about the E5C from the E5, but I belive they are identical. This leads me to be puzzled, why would they design something specificly for musicians and then keep that same design property in the consumer version?

 

[msflsim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTheD The rolled off treble is the first thing, if what you assert about the design of the 5 series is correct, that I would have thought that Shure would have changed about the E5C from the E5, but I belive they are identical. This leads me to be puzzled, why would they design something specificly for musicians and then keep that same design property in the consumer version?

Exatcly that..i think they didnt plan for E5 series to sell that well..
And also we are expecting far more that they are able to produce, in terms of quality and build.

And it makes sense b/c before i came to head-fi i was quite happy (not to say im not happier now) with a $10 headphones etc.
I found it (then) to be 'extreme' for someone to cary around a $1000 or more $ sound system in their pocket (in terms of portability)

I think that current IEM manufacturers IMHO are not keeping up with the demand (quality/price/build).
And our (head-fi society) demand is very high, so all the things that we think should be different about a IEM from any company, we will probably see products like that but not now.

Also another big part of that whole industry is marketing.
Choosing a new pair of headphones/IEM's is very hard b/c of all those factors.

If they made a 'perfect' (in lack of beter term) consumer product, that would be it for them..no room for upgrades or updating or expanding the currect line.

So im not suprised that products (sound signatures) are that different between compeeting companies.

But then again its like that with any 'consumer' type of product..

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msflsim I found it (then) to be 'extreme' for someone to cary around a $1000 or more $ sound system in their pocket (in terms of portability)

I still find it extreem to cary around a $1000 portable audio system, I like to think that I have kept proper perspective on the value of hi-fi audio while spending thousands of dollars on it.

All in all I think it is something of a waste of resources to be spending anything over $200 on a portable hi-fi setup, you know consider how much can be done with said money if given to charity or invested in ones own monetary growth. But yet I still spend hundreds of dollars more than $200 per month on the stuff, can anyone say addiction.

Wait, let me take a peak at Microsoft Money, well its telling me I only spent $118.17 on head-fi last month, but I just started entering information in it about a week ago and it doesn't have accurate information for much previous to that. I'm doing good so far this month, as of the timestamp of this post I haven't spent anything in the month of July [2005] on the head-fi hobby.

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msflsim I think that current IEM manufacturers IMHO are not keeping up with the demand (quality/price/build). And our (head-fi society) demand is very high, so all the things that we think should be different about a IEM from any company, we will probably see products like that but not now.

I think that the Shure E4C has proven to be a good quality/price/build for the short period of time it has been out. I don't have first hand experience but with the second hand experience I have with the E4C I find it an excellent entry into the Head-Fi market. That is at the street price of less than $200 I mean, not for the MSRP of $299.

You are most certainly correct when you say that Head-Fi member's demands are high, we demand a lot from a headphone to call it a good buy and a good can. I would say that the E4C is a good glimps of what is posible if companys were to tailor a canalphone for headphiles. It probably isn't as cheap as it could be but all in all I think it is an excellent offering and good enough for now anyway (If you didn't figure it out already I am not terably demanding myself, I think that what we have now is pretty much good enough and stressing over getting companys to do better and give us more is a stress that is largely wasted, but with an attitude like that nothing will get done, so if you (not just msflsim but everyone else to) are convinced that more can be offered, by all means speak up and let your thoughts be known, I'll let you do the stressin' and hopefully collect on the rewards myself.

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msflsim Also another big part of that whole industry is marketing. Choosing a new pair of headphones/IEM's is very hard b/c of all those factors.

I think this is correct outside of the influance of Head-Fi. Within Head-Fi I think the world has the best resource for product evaluation that is available, the opinions of those who own and who have first hand experience with said products, it doesn't get much better than that.

Outside of the Head-Fi community I don't think anything is determinable from what the companys that sell the products say. Headphones are very unique that way, you simply must hear them yourself to know what they sound like and the writing on the box might as well be Japanese. We all know that even the opinions of those that own said product vary quite a bit, but having the opinions of owners is infinetly better than just having to guess based on product price and placement in a series of products.

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msflsim If they made a 'perfect' (in lack of beter term) consumer product, that would be it for them..no room for upgrades or updating or expanding the currect line. But then again its like that with any 'consumer' type of product..

This makes it sound like they are holding off making the perfect headphone just because it would kill the market. I honestly have no insight into the headphone industy, but that makes very little logical sense to me. I know that all the industrys that I do have an insight into, don't have the capability to produce a perfect product, if they did it would cost way to much for all but the richest of concumers to buy and wouldn't have much of a market as a result. Isn't that basicly the way it works? Just the reserach needed to produce a headphone that is perfectly comfortable would probably push the price of the thing up $50, then there are whatever exotic materials and cushionings they would need...on and on...but I could be wrong. What do you think?

 

[warpdriver]

Shure's characteristic treble roll off comes as a shock for us used to brighter sounding headphones and IEM's. Personally, I'd give up some bass in order to keep the treble, but not the other way around.

 

[Imyourzero]

Quote:

Originally Posted by warpdriver Shure's characteristic treble roll off comes as a shock for us used to brighter sounding headphones and IEM's.

Yep. I bought some UM2s a few months ago after spending some time with my ER-4Ps and wanting a canalphone with more bass. After listening to the UM2s, my first reaction was "Dang, that's some bass!

" followed by "Where's the treble?" EQing helped to bring out the highs, but it is quite a shock to go from bright-sounding phones to ones with a rolled-off high end (and vice versa).

Quote:

Originally Posted by warpdriver Personally, I'd give up some bass in order to keep the treble, but not the other way around.

Me too--that's why I ordered the E4s. I hope I made the right decision!

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTheD Wait, let me take a peak at Microsoft Money, well its telling me I only spent $118.17 on head-fi last month, but I just started entering information in it about a week ago and it doesn't have accurate information for much previous to that. I'm doing good so far this month, as of the timestamp of this post I haven't spent anything in the month of July [2005] on the head-fi hobby.

I just updated some of the information in Microsoft Money for last month, its now displaying a total spendature of $504.94 for head-fi related purchases.

 

[RickG]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTheD I just updated some of the information in Microsoft Money for last month, its now displaying a total spendature of $504.94 for head-fi related purchases.

...and this has what to do with the Shure E5 treble roll off?

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickG ...and this has what to do with the Shure E5 treble roll off?

Not a terably large amount that is for sure. I thought that you could read the progression of the discussion yourself but I suppose it was more of a jab than an actuall question huh?

My point was mearly this, I to share the feeling that a large amount of money being spent on hi-fi equipment is something that takes getting used to, and as an example gave the ammount I spent on hi-fi equipment in the last month, even though I myself consider there to be better venues for said moneys to be spent. This is just a case study of the many that could be done on the availability of moneys from consumers that companys, like Shure could tap into, and that relates to msflsim's point that there is a high demand from Head-Fi members on companys like Shure, in quality/price & build quality.

 

[msflsim]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTheD I think this is correct outside of the influance of Head-Fi. Within Head-Fi I think the world has the best resource for product evaluation that is available, the opinions of those who own and who have first hand experience with said products, it doesn't get much better than that. Outside of the Head-Fi community I don't think anything is determinable from what the companys that sell the products say. Headphones are very unique that way, you simply must hear them yourself to know what they sound like and the writing on the box might as well be Japanese. We all know that even the opinions of those that own said product vary quite a bit, but having the opinions of owners is infinetly better than just having to guess based on product price and placement in a series of products.

I might get flamed for this but my opinion is that the Shure E5's is at least double priced for what it actually gives. (dont know what is the actual manufacturing price)

Great IEM designed for a 'specific group' of audiophiles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTheD This makes it sound like they are holding off making the perfect headphone just because it would kill the market. I honestly have no insight into the headphone industy, but that makes very little logical sense to me. I know that all the industrys that I do have an insight into, don't have the capability to produce a perfect product, if they did it would cost way to much for all but the richest of concumers to buy and wouldn't have much of a market as a result. Isn't that basicly the way it works? Just the reserach needed to produce a headphone that is perfectly comfortable would probably push the price of the thing up $50, then there are whatever exotic materials and cushionings they would need...on and on...but I could be wrong. What do you think?

Thats exatcly why we have so many different sound signatures, they do vary and what is 'popular' and 'nice' doesnt have to sound 'best'.

Having said that it brings me to another thing that u mentioned and that is other Head-fi members opinions and reviews.
It does help greatly to listen (read) other members 'experiences' (i say experiences b/c everybodys ears are different, so the preferences and opinions on sound and quality while be as different)


I agree with you on the IEM part, but i dont know about headphones, surely that industry makes more money and needs more funds to research the market to provide us with a good value vs. quality product.

It would only make sence that IEM manufacturers are monitoring sites like these taking down all the remarks and possible upgrades.

The Head-Fi comunity is doing a really brilliant work in making it easier for IEM manufacturers to make a good audiophile product.
Thats why i think IEM manufacturers are holding back to ensure that we are not getting too 'much' (again value/quallity) or too little.
Just enough to keep us on the edge and eager

So with all that in mind, no wonder that most of the companies are offering a money back guarantie for their products.
That way we can explore our ears and the sound that suites us most..
And we should also take that advantage for reviewing and deciding on which IEM is the best for everyone of us.

$500 is a lot of money and if you can audition any product before you buy then do it, without that choice unfortunately there is a chance we might get dissapointed.

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msflsim It would only make sence that IEM manufacturers are monitoring sites like these taking down all the remarks and possible upgrades.

You are right, it would only make sence because Head-Fi is a wonderful opertunity for the manufacturer to get feedback from the customer, however I fear that something so terably obvious to the consumer is frequenty beyond the understanding or most likely interest of many companys, sure it would help them out, but many of them just don't want to put the effort into listening to their customers, they are much more focused on meeting bottom lines and putting out products that reserach teams or individuals within the company think will sell well. Another example of a seeming logical end not being reached by many people grouped togeather, the wisdom of the masses is not the wisdom of each person as an individual.

I don't mean to through your point out though, I am sure there are several companys that do make a vist to this forum frequently, Sugarfried of Shure is one example and I know there are more, its just that the bigest amount of industry related community members is clearly the resellers with Todd & Tyll and Keith etc. Maybe there are a bunch of companys reading these forums, but I have the feeling that the large majority aren't and that only the lucky few get to expereience what the Head-Fi community does with their product once it leaves their builidng.

 

[PTheD]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msflsim Thats why i think IEM manufacturers are holding back to ensure that we are not getting too 'much' (again value/quallity) or too little. Just enough to keep us on the edge and eager

Hehe, I know you know what I think about that. I guess I'm just not as much of a conspiracy theorist as you on that one.