Realistically, how much can upgrading the HP cable improve sq?

[mac336]

 I have seen many threads with people talking about how buying these expensive cables for their headphones (like hd650, 600 etc) improve their sound quality.  If a normal person (non audiophile) were to blind test the same headphone with the stock and upgraded cable, would he be able to notice any difference at all.  I can't see how upgrading the headphone cable would be anything more than a subtle improvement (at best). 

 

[Wingstrike]

To me, it's something noticeable if it's a different type of material used in the cable. For example, I can tell a difference if it's a copper or silver cable. I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't know how it makes a difference, but there definitely is, and my non-audiophile friends can tell a difference as well when I let them listen. They can't discern which cable is the better one, but they can hear a difference

 

[colgatetotal]

In most cases, there will be a larger difference upgrading the model of the headphone instead of upgrading the cable. This is why cable upgrading isn't recommended on any headphones that are less than top tier, though I did see a picture of someone putting a Blue Dragon on a KSC35: http://www.head-fi.org/t/171892/got-my-blue-dragon-recabled-ksc-35s
 

 

[Mad Max]

 
Quote:

 I have seen many threads with people talking about how buying these expensive cables for their headphones (like hd650, 600 etc) improve their sound quality.  If a normal person (non audiophile) were to blind test the same headphone with the stock and upgraded cable, would he be able to notice any difference at all.  I can't see how upgrading the headphone cable would be anything more than a subtle improvement (at best). 

So subtle that it cannot be proven to do anything to the sound at all.  ;D
 
Yet we roll cables anyway.  Good grief.

 

[mikeaj]

There's nothing going on with reasonably-constructed (not intentionally bad, pretty much) cables that would cause remotely significant differences in passing through audio frequency signals, generally.  Sometimes with very long runs of speaker cables (and noting that most speakers have a very low impedance like 4 or 8 ohms, and the impedance of the cable is proportional to the length), the impedance of the cable itself is not negligible, so you'll have some losses in the cables that can alter the sound.  In that situation, the output of the amplifier is being split to the cable and the speakers, which means the sound will be a little less loud and the damping factor will be lower.  With headphones having higher impedance and their cables being shorter, so impedance of the cable negligible compared to that of the headphones, that's not an issue.  Also for most models the effects of low damping factor are probably smaller than for most speakers installations.
 
Here are some test results showing the differences between some cables:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/405217/my-cable-test-enterprise
 
typical results being under 0.01 dB different at any frequency, which is extremely small, in the realm of experimental error.  There is a much larger than 0.01 dB difference in the sound from having the headphones placed on your head in a slightly different position or fashion, not to mention any number of different things.
 
 
Given the amount of expertise and R&D the big players like Sennheiser, Audio Technica, Beyerdynamic, etc. have done over the years, if there were significant audible differences between cables, don't you think they would have come up with great cables to match their great headphones?

 

[MalVeauX]

Heya,
 
If you blind test 100 of the same headphone, with a single one having a silver cable that costs $300+, off the same equipment, with the same listener, odds are you will not get a 100% correlation with discerning the difference. You're more likely to a hear a difference that is more likely correlated to minute differences of each separate headphone, even though they're the same model, due to manufacturing.
 
Cables, like many things, are snake oil.
 
If you're interested in the chemistry behind why Silver is used, and Copper, look at a periodic table of elements and pay attention to the characteristics of those transition metals in the group. You'll see a pattern. Now look at cost of said metals. Again, you'll see a pattern. In a world of 10~12 foot cables, tops, on your headphones, it's not reasonable to assume there will be a difference in the signal that results that is statistically significant. Which is why it's not easily measured in a repeatable way for you to read about. All you have for this are "audiophile ears" who some claim "it changes everything" to "I couldn't tell a difference." The fact that there's basically yes/no groups, means, there's likely no difference.
 
Very best,

 

[Silent One]

Not necessarily. Manufacturers, especially the big ones, ask themselves a different question entirely. "When is good, good enough to maximize profits?' 

 

[mikeaj]

Quote:

Not necessarily. Manufacturers, especially the big ones, ask themselves a different question entirely. "When is good, good enough to maximize profits?' 

 
This line of reasoning is correct.  If a "good" cable configuration were much more expensive in terms of materials or manufacturing, then they wouldn't do it.
 
 
However, the reality is that there's scant evidence of any kind of superior properties of certain cables (other than marketing pseudoscience from those who sell such things, which isn't really evidence), no branch of modern electrical theory that would suggest that those kinds of differences would exist at audio frequencies, no bench tests with the best instrumentation showing significant differences, and most importantly:  no controlled listening tests showing any audible differences.
 
Additionally, there are studies showing that even under well-controlled listening conditions where the listener doesn't know which is which, most people when given an identical samples A and B, will prefer one or the other--rather than have no preference.  See below link, particularly the first sentence.  Of course when people are listening and know which is which, then there are additional reasons why they may prefer one over the other even when there's no actual difference.
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=5539

 

[NinjaSquirt]

I'd say maybe in a few headphones? Personally I bought an used K702 with stock and a $150 bronze cable, never heard a lick of difference. Of course that' just one case and might not be true of all cables.

 

[catsup]

Quote:

I'd say maybe in a few headphones? Personally I bought an used K702 with stock and a $150 bronze cable, never heard a lick of difference. Of course that' just one case and might not be true of all cables.

Ouch. Could've bought another decent headphone with that money. That sucks.

 

[MarioImpemba]

Quote:

Cables, like many things, are snake oil.

QFT.

 

[idletime1213]

I usually upgrade for looks + ergonomics. If I hear a positive difference, well that's just a bonus. I usually just DIY my own cables though, saves a whole lot of money.

 

[johnwmclean]

Why do cables only make a difference with audio equipment related equipment? 

 
The military, research labs, hospitals etc all with sensitive equipment haven’t cottoned on yet..
 

 
 
 
 
 

 

[mikeaj]

Quote:

Why do cables only make a difference with audio equipment related equipment? 

 
The military, research labs, hospitals etc all with sensitive equipment haven’t cottoned on yet..
 

Cables do make a lot of difference for a lot of applications.  Depending on what you're trying to measure, oscilloscope probes need to have certain specific properties.  You don't use something random to hook up an antenna.  etc.  The properties of interest tend to be the usual R, L, and C, and maybe length, characteristic impedance, shielding, and so on, and not the exotic materials and construction of interest to audiophiles though, so maybe they're still missing out.  

 
Sending < 20 kHz signals for a couple meters is just not really an exacting process requiring anything special.

 

[catsup]

Quote:

Cables do make a lot of difference for a lot of applications. 

Now that you mention it, I remember the recent story that some physicists thought they found faster than light particles only to be debunked by a loose cable in the measurement machine. lol.