[Slimm]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone Commercial entity's amps should actually be cheaper, not more expensive than DIY amps. Mass production should reduce the cost. Perhaps not "better" built, but at least on the same level. When it comes down to it, the only difference between parts used by Headroom amps and any other DIY amps is the casing they put around it... they might have thicker plates. When compared with builders like LaRocco or Ray Samuel, they are certainly not any better. The ugly "black box" look for their amps isn't something I appreciate aesthetically either.

Have you ever owned or run a commercial business?

Your logic is crazy. Mass production? Do you believe if an entity makes ten amps compared to a DIY making one, they're going to spend LESS money? Maybe "per part" but they're also ordering "en masse". It's my understanding that most of the DIY makers "build to order", so they don't need to stock the parts necessarily until the order is in, depending on their operation, much less have the amps sitting on the shelf waiting to be bought. A place like Headroom not only has to have the parts in stock, but amps ready to go on their inventory, plus maintain diversification of products, not to mention their overhead, payroll, and advertising costs (their primary consumer I would assume is not solely based at Head-Fi ), that adds up. They can't wait for a PM or phone call, order the parts and then build it.

And your "only difference in parts used is the casing" is equally silly, and somewhat irresponsible. While I don't build amps, even I know that's not the case.

If you don't prefer them, fine (I agree with your assessment of their products being "voiced with the 'Senn's"), but your reasoning to slag them off and in essence "badmouthing their product" in general are rediculous.

 

[insomniac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slimm Your logic is crazy. Mass production? Do you believe if an entity makes ten amps compared to a DIY making one, they're going to spend LESS money? Maybe "per part" but thet're also ordering "en masse". It's my understanding that most of the DIY makers "build to order", so they don't need to stock the parts necessarily until the order is in, depending on their operation, much less have the amps sitting on the shelf waiting to be bought. A place like Headroom not only has to have the parts in stock, but amps ready to go on their inventory, plus maintain diversification of products, not to mention their overhead, payroll, and advertising costs (their primary consumer I would assume is not solely based at Head-Fi ), that adds up. They can't wait for a PM or phone call, order the parts and then build it.

I think the point lindrone was making was that mass production does reduce the cost to manufacture an individual unit. By that I mean, 1,000 mass-produced units should cost less to build than 1,000 custom units.

That said, you are correct, Slimm, in that there are often many other costs associated with mass production. Such as overhead, payroll, marketing, brand premium, etc (everything you mentioned) which can drive the cost of each unit above the cost of a corresponding DIY unit.

But in an ideal world, a vendor should be able to deliver a comparable mass produced product at less the cost than a corresponding custom built product. Just look at Dell. Of course, not every business and every market is perfect, so this will not always happen. Some mass production processes are inefficient, some like to take a higher profit per unit, some overcharge for their brand and/or service, etc etc.

 

[Slimm]

I agree with you Insomniac, you make some great points. In an "ideal world", I would concur about a one item for one item comparison, but unfortunately it's not that way.

To me, Dell's a great example of "coming full circle". There was a time where you could build a computer for a lot less than what they sold them for (I'm sure it could still be done now), but their business success and market penetration has allowed them to bring down the pricing and almost "dominate their market".

Again, the fact that you can get similiar quality in sound from the XP-7, while also getting fabulous battery life, and what some would consider a better form factor to the Cosmic or other amps is a credit to the design and build of it. It's a great amp.

 

[markl]

I can't speak to the value of the PPA as I've never heard one, and as has been mentioned, there are virtually a limitless number of incarnations of the thing with all the various options.

I can say, though, that Ray has shared with me in private his cost for building an HR-2, the big brother of the XP-7. I will not divulge what those costs are of course, but I can observe that based on it's selling price, margin is VERY small (especially when compared to the typical mark-up on audio gear), he is never going to get rich selling these things. I assume that the XP-7 represents a similar value to the HR-2. Just look under the hood and observe the immaculate construction. Having spent a few weeks with an XP-7, for me, once I had put the AD797 op-amps in line, IMO, FWIW, you get one hell of an amp. If you consider that the XP-7 is mostly to be used with portable front-ends, one could almost argue that in that application, it's total overkill. But with the option of the dedicated power supply, you can also have a home-based amp that will compete very well indeed with other amps in it's price range. Portability can be merely a nice "plus".

It's entirely possible that the makers of PPAs have a similarly slim margin and that workmanship is on par with XP-7, again I can't say, I've never heard one.

 

[Canman]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindrone Commercial entity's amps should actually be cheaper, not more expensive than DIY amps. Mass production should reduce the cost.

Headroom and Ray Samuels don't quite "mass produce" their amplifiers. They are small production handmade (for the most part) products. You can't compare them to mass producers like Dell who run assembly lines and purchase inventory in mass quantities.

Plus, in a DIY design, you are not paying for design time and R&D costs. You are only paying for parts. That is why a commercial amplifier especially from a small manufacturer (like Headroom) will cost you more. Don't forget you are also buying service and support with your money when you buy a commercial amplifier.

I wasn't my intention to compare the value of the XP-7 to DIY projects, although the reality is that high end manufacturers (especially for headphone amps) do have to compete with DIY designs.

The XP-7 is not a good value for me because I do not think it sounds good enough for the price. I think the parts cost to retail cost ratio is low compared to other headphone amp manufacturers, expecially when you don't get a power supply included in the $500 price. I respect that Ray runs a small business and he can charge what he wants. It is actually probably a good thing for him that he doesn't charge less because that would steer people away from his more expensive solid state amplifier, the HR-2.

 

[lindrone]

Slimm, you make good points... but the only thing I can agree on is as possible costly overhead are perhaps the staffing, or the advertising cost.

If you're staffing more people, that means you're selling more products than a DIY builder that's making these amps out of their garage. The staffing itself means that you're already generating more revenue. That doesn't justify the higher pricing of the amps to begin with.

As far as stocking parts, we're not dealing with the computer market where the value on parts depreciate dramatically in a short amount of time. In fact, parts for amps is a market where prices almost never change. You're not going to see resistors drop down to half its current value in 6 months. So keeping a large inventory is not a problem of depreciation, only a problem of having the room to do so.

Advertising and marketing costs are real, but those sort of cost generates much more revenue (if the advertisement are aimed towards the right market, and dollars are well spent, of course) for Headroom than any DIY builders could on their own.

FYI, I currently work at a start-up company... and in my college years I worked at a small computer shop building custom computers... I have a pretty good idea of how bottoms lines are met. I'm no econ major... but I've been through my shares of lay-offs, successes and failures, and piles and piles of charts outlining company status.

 

[Slimm]

Lindrone

Those costs are real, and cost that the DIY'er don't necessarily have to encur, depending on the level of their operation. In this niche of the electronic market, amps (we're not necessarily taking about computers), the fact that it's SUCH a niche market (as is headphones in general) preclude those in the business from having their revenue increase "that" dramatically that they could "pass the savings" to their consumer in a short amount of time. Plus you're also talking about an outfit (Headroom) that may or may not have the capital behind them to incur these costs at least partially in order to price their products so they could bring them "to the masses".

I don't know that for a fact or have any inkling as to whether that's the case or not with Headroom, it's just an assumption of a possibile scenario.

While I agree that those parts won't depreciate, you still have to pay people, you still have to invest in R & D, and you still have to advertise and "expand your market", pay for the building, etc.; regardless of whether you sell an amp or not that day. The costs just aren't THAT linear to the product being sold, unlike with some DIY'ers.

EDIT: GOOD LUCK to you and your endeavors, I hope it all works out for you and that you'll be quite successful.

 

[john_jcb]

One other consideration when you are comparing commercial and DIY amps from a cost standpoint is the PC board. The builders of the META and PPA amps for example have had the boards designed, documented and built for them by some very dedicated Head-Fi members. All you really need to do is buy a few parts and assemble the kit. The cost if you are doing all of the design work for yourself is not insignificant in either time or money. I wonder how good a deal the PPA would be if you had to come up with a basic design, test it, refine it then have a board built. Now buy your parts and put it together. I think the cost would be significantly different.

 

[lindrone]

Again, great points Slimm... very well stated. Especially that non-linear cost in R&D and staffing that recurs regardless of how sales are going at any given month. I guess to establish the "critical mass" in this niche market is a challege in itself as well.

I just never felt that Headroom's pricing on their products were very competitive, but pricing in this niche market is two-fold. Part of that pricing comes from a function of cost & profitability, but just as much of that pricing come from the perceived value of the amp themselves. If someone who just really loves the way Headroom MOH or Blockhead sounds, even if there's another competitive (but different sounding) amp at half the price... it wouldn't matter to the purchaser.

Thinking about it some more, what justified my Emmeline HR-2 purchase? It isn't that much cheaper than the Headroom MOH, but I just liked the sound signature of it so much more. It didn't matter to me that the HR-2 is $875, and it wouldn't have mattered even if another amp can get me to 80% of HR-2 at half the cost. I wanted the 100%. Which is also why I didn't get the XP-7.

Anyway, not like we have Headroom's financial statement in front of our face... only Headroom knows how much sales and profits they are making, and if passing the saving (or even, producing the savings to be passed on) onto the consumer is a possibility at all given their current business structure.

I was a bit rash to think that Headroom should lower the price automatically just because they are the market leader. This discussion certain helped me think about it more deeply and consider other reasons more than just the typical "big versus small company" sentiments that can easily be dominant in one's liberalistic mind

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slimm EDIT: GOOD LUCK to you and your endeavors, I hope it all works out for you and that you'll be quite successful.

Thanks.. I hope so too.. lay-offs suck.. don't think I can survive through another one of those unscathed

We're doing pretty well for now though... I just hope I don't get fired for spending too much time at Head-Fi while I'm at work... LOL.

 

[Slimm]

Hey man, whether it's the HR-2 or whatever you listen to. I always felt it didn't matter how much it cost if I REALLY enjoyed the product.

The only rationalization I need is if I have a curiosity to see what something else sounds like. I don't care who makes it or what it costs necessarily. "Commercial" products have some inherant advantages, but rarely has price or whether its "commercial or DIY" become an issue for me as far as whether I'd buy something or not (with the Blockhead setup I bought being an exception).

You don't need to justify your puchase or tastes to me or anyone else. I would hope you'd make a choice based on YOUR sound preferences. But I do appreciate your impressions on what you and everyone else buys and owns, even if I don't agree.

)


I was fortunate enough to land a new position that'll give me a nice bump in pay myself(not a lot of money to begin with, but I'm happy). Layoffs suck and IMO are unnecessary. All the success to you my friend. If the passion you show here is any indication as to your persona, you'll definitely be a huge success.

 

[Sugano-san]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hottyson The LaRocco Pocket Reference looks very promising. PPL has included many of the technologies used in the PPA and optimized it to run off of two rechargeable nine volt batteries. The fact that you can recharge its internal batteries truly does give it another one up on the Emmeline XP-7. It is only a smidgen larger. I also like the fact that the power switch of the LaRocco Pocket Reference is on the front. This might not seem too important but when you have your gear in a portable bag it makes a world of difference. You can not go wrong with anything that has the LaRocco name on it.

True. I own the maxed-out Pocket Reference. I compared the PR to the XP-7, and I clearly prefer the PR.

 

[hottyson]

Quote:

Originally Posted by elrod-tom The XP-7 is built like a tank...I'm convinced that I could jump up and down on mine without damaging it. It has the Emmeline "House Sound" (which tends to be forward without being too bright...actually somewhat warm), which I liked a lot.

The build quality just floors me too. As for the forward sound, perhaps that is why I like it so well with my source and headphones. I have the Beyerdynamic DT-880, which is also forward. I guess I prefer a forward sound. Some complain about the highs of this headphone but with my warm sounding Denon cd player and the Emmeline XP-7 the synergy is quite good enough for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by john_jcb I got over 40 hrs. on a pair of 9V batteries with the XP-7. How long will the LaRocco go without a charge?

With my Emmeline XP-7 I got two months of light use off of my first set of 9-volt batteries. I bought a two batteries package for $1 at a dollar store. Now that I have rechargeable batteries I find that taking the batteries out to recharge is a very simple chore with the clever Bulgin battery holders. I guess the benefit here is I can carry another set of rechargeables in my pocket or buy a set at an airport if I forget to recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ipodstudio Just my ramblings whilst reading this thread...

Good points, also your experiences similarly describe my experience to a tee.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markl once I had put the AD797 op-amps in line, IMO, FWIW, you get one hell of an amp. If you consider that the XP-7 is mostly to be used with portable front-ends, one could almost argue that in that application, it's total overkill.

You know it is funny that you mention that. Part of my purchasing decision was based on the portability of the Emmeline XP-7. The funny thing is that I have only used it portably with my portable cd player twice. My main problem is that I feel like I am doing something naughty when I hook up such a meager source to such a splendid amp. Now I am in need of a notebook computer to have high quality source for portability. I don’t know if I really need it but I have the urge to complete a high quality portable system whether I need it or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Canman expecially when you don't get a power supply included in the $500 price. I respect that Ray runs a small business and he can charge what he wants.

I too cannot get myself to pay $200 for the power supply. I have checked around though and from what I gather from correspondance with other Head-fiers is that Ray’s $200 asking price is reasonable for a hand made, dual voltage power supply housed in a high-quality enclosure.


Quote:

Originally Posted by john_jcb The builders of the META and PPA amps for example have had the boards designed, documented and built for them by some very dedicated Head-Fi members.

Too me this just blows me away that these people have contributed so much to our community. I list just a few of them in my signature but the list could go on and on. I have to thank them for building the foundation of today’s worldwide headphone enthusiasm.

Thanks you guys!

I think of you every time I log on to Head-fi or when my headphones bring a smile to my face.