R2R RIP or Resurrection?

[Diet Kokaine]

The "trust your ears" group gets very upset when you tell them to trust their ears instead of their eyes for once even though doing a proper listening test is what is really about trusting the ears.

That's not the argument here.
People who are used to listening with visiual cues are now being asked to do something, which to them is very unnatural. It creates **stress and disorientation**, especially in a testing environment.
Making any scientific analysis null and void.

Do you disagree?

I can spot different DACs in my system, while being hung upside down with a midget singing "Happy Birthday" directly into my ears. My ears are trained in this regard. But we're not talking about me.

ADD: If we're talking about differences between a $70,000 DAC and a $100 DAC, you can throw in a screaming chimpanzee to the mix, no problem. Throw in a stampeding Elephant as well.

 

[71 dB]

People who are used to listening with visionary cues are now being asked to do something, which to them is very unnatural. It creates **stress and disorientation**, especially in a testing environment.
Making any scientific analysis null and void.

Yes, blind listening tests definitely feel unnatural, I agree, but if you don't remove placebo effect, confirmation bias, etc. your test results are worthless garbage. If you can't do blind tests then you don't have a way to reliably know how devices sound. Your only option is to leave the blind testing to people who actually can do them without whining how unnatural it is. That is if you actually want to know the truth instead of living in your own beliefs.

I can spot different DACs in my system, while being hung upside down with a midget singing "Happy Birthday" directly into my ears. My ears are trained in this regard. But we're not talking about me.

The blind tests I have done in my life have humbled me about my ability to reliably hear things unless the differences are large enough to be actually audible. If you don't like being humbled, having excuses to not do blind listening tests certainly do protect your ego...

 

[bigshot]

I hear the sound signatures of dead people.

It isn’t rude to correct misconceptions. It’s rude to stubbornly ignore corrections and continue on with false arguments.

The core of this argument is applying creativity to the laws of electrical engineering instead of the “rigid” way that digital audio actually works.

 

[71 dB]

I hear the sound signatures of dead people.

The seventh sense?

It isn’t rude to correct misconceptions. It’s rude to stubbornly ignore corrections and continue on with false arguments.

People ignore corrections, because they believe they are correct themselves and think other people who try to correct them are wrong.

 

[old tech]

Dismissing subjectivity as delusion. A Stradivari isn’t “better” than another because of its specs—it’s the *uncapturable* interplay of resin, wood grain/density and centuries of human hands.
DACs? Same fight. Science will catch up… or it won’t. Either way, your ears aren’t waiting for permission.

Even here you are proven wrong...
https://www.science.org/content/article/million-dollar-strads-fall-modern-violins-blind-sound-check
https://www.thestrad.com/lutherie/b...s-violins-from-modern-instruments/994.article

 

[AxelCloris]

As a reminder, Head-Fi does not allow personal comments or profanity in any capacity here on the forums. Some posts have been removed for not meeting these guidelines. Similar posts in the future may result in permanent thread bans for those who cannot keep the discussion civil and within our Posting Guidelines. Thank you to everyone who kept things on track, we appreciate it. Now, back to the R2R discussion.

 

[theveterans]

Again, how can you ascertain anything about a “sonic signature” with your eyes and biases? You talk about “that sonic signature” but you show no reliable evidence of what that sonic signature is, or even that it’s anything other than flat within the audible range

Sonic signature is my own unique interpretation of the total sound of the system as I listen to it like a normal human being would. Others can perceive my own system differently due to different physical traits like HRTF, age, etc. So even performing blind test not every one can hear the same sound interpreted the same way. A flat sound to me might not be flat sound to others sighted or blind

 

[old tech]

Sonic signature is my own unique interpretation of the total sound of the system as I listen to it like a normal human being would. Others can perceive my own system differently due to different physical traits like HRTF, age, etc. So even performing blind test not every one can hear the same sound interpreted the same way. A flat sound to me might not be flat sound to others sighted or blind

By definition, a system with a sonic signature is not high definition and certainly not transparent. I would much prefer true high fidelity and then adjust frequency bands to suit my tastes and be able to tweak it for different music and mastering choices rather than being stuck with a stereo with a sonic signature.

 

[theveterans]

By definition, a system with a sonic signature is not high definition and certainly not transparent. I would much prefer true high fidelity and then adjust frequency bands to suit my tastes and be able to tweak it for different music and mastering choices rather than being stuck with a stereo with a sonic signature.

Yes. That's called preference

 

[gregorio]

[1] That's not the argument here.
[2] People who are used to listening with visiual cues are now being asked to do something, which to them is very unnatural. It creates **stress and disorientation**, especially in a testing environment.
[3] Making any scientific analysis null and void.

1. That is exactly the argument!
2. So you admit you are lying! Unless you pick up visual cues with your ears, then you do not “trust your ears” as you claim, you are using your eyes and indeed, you bizarrely find it apparently “very unnatural” not to use your eyes. I personally find it entirely natural to listen when it’s dark, with my eyes closed or when I have no “visual cues” of what’s playing, say when listening to an audio only recording of an orchestra and listening to such an audio recording does not cause me “stress and disorientation”.
3. So by extension, you’re asserting that all audiograms/hearing tests are “null and void” as they are also a “testing environment” without “visual cues”. Why is it not surprising that you don’t know how scientific analysis works, what the requirements of DBTs are, and therefore that your assertion is false. But don’t let that stop you coming to a science discussion forum and posting false assertions!

I make my own power cables— they’re a very unconventional design, but they still nail that crisp silver sound most audiophiles love.

A power cable transfers power, not sound. Hence why it’s called a “power cable” and not a “sound cable”! And, silver doesn’t have a sound.

Sonic signature is my own unique interpretation of the total sound of the system as I listen to it like a normal human being would.

No it is NOT! “Signature” - the characteristic or set of characteristics that show what a particular chemical, biological structure, or medical condition is (Cambridge dictionary). “Sonic” - denoting, relating to, or of the nature of sound or sound waves (Google/Oxford dictionary). “Sonic signature” is therefore - The characteristics of the sound/sound waves. So, nothing whatsoever to do with your “own unique interpretation”!

You have not addressed the request for reliable evidence of the claimed “sonic signature”, all you’ve done is demonstrated that you don’t know the difference between the characteristics of sound waves and your perception/interpretation!

Others can perceive my own system differently due to different physical traits like HRTF, age, etc. So even performing blind test not every one can hear the same sound interpreted the same way. A flat sound to me might not be flat sound to others sighted or blind …

Which is completely irrelevant because your claim was about the sonic signature of DACs, not your or anyone else’s perception!

Yes. That's called preference

DACs do not have any preference!

G