R2R/multibit vs Delta-Sigma - Is There A Measurable Scientific Difference That's Audible
Jan 25, 2016 at 10:37 AM Post #736 of 1,344
Although slightly off-topic (from R2R vs DS), I wonder why these DAC battles don't really carry over to the ADC world? Quality R2R options (like what Schiit offers) don't seem to exist and the DS options seem extremely limited (at reasonable prices). A recently popular ADC chip seems to be the Burr Brown PCM4220 for example. I'm currently bouncing between the Tascam UH-7000 (supposedly good mic and headphone preamps) and the Audient iD22 (better drivers/latency and a built-in JFET hi-z for electric guitar) both of which have the PCM4220.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 2:09 PM Post #739 of 1,344
   
So what's the human-detectable analog to hitting the wrong target out of the DAC?


A tuba sounds like a bassoon?
 
Toscanini sounds likes Fiedler?
 
Frank sounds like Sade?
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 5:22 PM Post #740 of 1,344
DS DACs, which due to their architecture contain no inherent nonmonotonicity, are incapable of accurately decoding a complete set of twos compliment codes per bit-width at any rate other than static, at best.
 
Quote:
I like your writing style. Is there s Schiit school of technical writing?
smily_headphones1.gif


I'm very interested in what you say - just trying to tease it out so I can understand it. Can you say more about the bit in bold, please - I don't really comprehend it's meaning? Sure I understand the inherent monotonicity of 1bit modulation but I guess most SD DACs now are hybrid devices with 5 or 6 bits & various segmentation schemes. I'm not disagreeing with your analysis, just wish to understand it better. Like you I use my auditory processing & not measurements as the criteria to judge the sonic qualities of a device & so far, in my limited experience, R2R has certain sonic qualities that seem to be related to less temporal smear but there may be other underlying causes.

If you could also give a link to the Analog Devices filtering that you mentioned, I would also appreciate it

It may have been more clear if I had included a definition of twos compliment, the coding scheme of every audio AD/DA converter I have ever seen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two%27s_complement
 
No missing codes:
https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/748
 
And how this relates to digital to analog converters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_nonlinearity
 
I really have included the above to be helpful with the above links for your own research as starting points.  You may try searching the Analog devices site for "no missing codes" to find what you seek.
 
 
Quote:
   
Okay, but I'm still not quite getting what you're measuring to tell the difference between the two.
 
If I gave you two black boxes, each with an analog out, what would you measure to determine which one was DS vs which one was multibit?

 
You need a voltage measuring precise to tens/hundreds of microvolts for 14-16 volt systems, and ones/tens of microvolts for 18-20 bit systems - The system is an A/D system with no missing codes and the D/A converter under test to see if the voltage measurements match.  If a code is missing, the difference will not be trivial.
 
   
So what's the human-detectable analog to hitting the wrong target out of the DAC?


A careful reading of the post would reveal that I was only answering a question - I never made any such assertion of an analog.  My human detectable assertions and opinions were made in post #713 above.
 
Schiit Audio Stay updated on Schiit Audio at their sponsor profile on Head-Fi.
 
https://www.facebook.com/Schiit/ http://www.schiit.com/
Jan 25, 2016 at 5:55 PM Post #741 of 1,344
I like your writing style. Is there s Schiit school of technical writing? :)


I'm very interested in what you say - just trying to tease it out so I can understand it. Can you say more about the bit in bold, please - I don't really comprehend it's meaning? Sure I understand the inherent monotonicity of 1bit modulation but I guess most SD DACs now are hybrid devices with 5 or 6 bits

It may have been more clear if I had included a definition of twos compliment, the coding scheme of every audio AD/DA converter I have ever seen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two%27s_complement

No missing codes:
https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/app-notes/index.mvp/id/748

And how this relates to digital to analog converters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_nonlinearity

I really have included the above to be helpful with the above links for your own research as starting points.  You may try searching the Analog devices site for "no missing codes" to find what you seek.


Ah, yes, A DNL error of <±1LSB guarantees no missing codes - I just hadn't seen it expressed in that way but it's obvious. Sorry for being so dumb.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 6:37 PM Post #742 of 1,344
  You need a voltage measuring precise to tens/hundreds of microvolts for 14-16 volt systems, and ones/tens of microvolts for 18-20 bit systems - The system is an A/D system with no missing codes and the D/A converter under test to see if the voltage measurements match.  If a code is missing, the difference will not be trivial.
 

A careful reading of the post would reveal that I was only answering a question - I never made any such assertion of an analog.  My human detectable assertions and opinions were made in post #713 above.

 
I didn't claim you made an assertion, I was asking what in fact the analog might be. That is, when do these missing codes become an audible issue, not just a measurement issue.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 8:59 PM Post #743 of 1,344
 
No missing codes is a huge no-no for weapons technology.  The missile must hit the weapons dump as opposed to the nunnery.  The the makers of AD5791BRUZ and AD5781BRUZ D/A chips of which we use one per phase on our two top converters provide an evaluation board which is designed to be used with a pc and precise voltage measuring system to input all 20 bits and 18 bits worth of code, respectively.  This no missing codes problem is due in part to the fact that all of the original samples are discarded and then later successively approximated in the filters inherent to SD and DS technology.  Thus my extreme mistrust of SD and DS tech.
 
Well it's certainly true that ΔΣ technology is based on transforming a PCM input signal into a different domain as PDM. But I can't see why this would be a crucial problem. There are plenty of R2R-PCM DAC chips that also transform their input signals in order to leverage circuit designs that allow greater linearity. The venerable PCM63, for instance, was based on a colinear design composed of two DACs sharing an R2R ladder so they could convert the twos-complement input into unsigned values. It was also, of course, designed to be fed by an 8x oversampling filter which grossly transformed the 16bit inputs from CD. The AD5791 you mention handles the upper 6 MSBs through 63 dedicated resistor switches and the rest of the signal by an R2R ladder, a transformation that underlines the fact that some bits are more equal than others and reflects a logical allocation of resources.
 
Now, it's certainly true that it's simpler to trace the transformation in the last two cases, and it's easy to see the correspondence between input and output, even though it's not precisely 1-to-1. Any oversampling of the input will introduce integration, but it's still fairly easy to understand. ΔΣ transforms, on the other hand, are a lot more complex, consist of multiple stages, have multiple possible topologies, and if you really want to understand them you need to consult some textbooks. But they're still fundamentally deterministic. The output reflects the input without any 'approximation' taking place beyond the constraints imposed by the noise inherent in all physical instantiations of circuitry, and ΔΣ designs are centered around pushing that noise out to places where it doesn't matter and can be removed with ease.
 
I'm not quite sure why you're so concerned about the 'no missing codes' criterion, since that applies to ADCs and not DACs: it basically refers to an ADC's ability to sweep through the entire range of output values without missing any as the input sweeps through its full range. It's certainly desireable, but any decent modern ΔΣ ADC can fulfill that requirement.
 
 The DS advantage is cost

 
And that's really the take-home message, isn't it? Let's not beat about the bush, a modern high-precision PCM DAC like the AD5791 is obscenely expensive, almost ten times the price of a ΔΣ DAC of comparable quality. Since this is BOM cost, it gets transmitted and multiplied all the way up the chain and the cost to the consumer balloons.
 
Now, I can't blame Analog Devices for selling expensive chips, or manufacturers like Schiit for implementing them: if people want this stuff and they're willing to pay for it, then you'd be stupid not to provide products to tap that section of the market. The home audio market has a significant carriage trade component, and only a fool would turn down the margins provided by luxury goods.
 
But this is a consumer forum, and we're trying to be rational here: if we see one product that costs ten times as much as another we need to ask why we would possibly consider it. You can make perfectly good DACs using ΔΣ technology, and you can make equally good DACs using PCM technology, but the latter will cost considerably more for comparable performance. I can't see any reason to choose the straight PCM option apart from the false equivalence of cost = value.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 9:16 PM Post #744 of 1,344
It's not "comparable performance".
 
However the performance of the multibit DAC may be unneeded and unnecessary for 99% of listeners, just as 99% of people are not targeting weapons or performing MRIs.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 9:23 PM Post #745 of 1,344
  It's not "comparable performance".
 
However the performance of the multibit DAC may be unneeded and unnecessary for 99% of listeners, just as 99% of people are not targeting weapons or performing MRIs.

No No No NO.
 
If you want to claim a difference in performance you're going to have to prove it. And anecdotes from sighted listening don't cut the mustard, laddy.
 
By every rational measure both ΔΣ and high-performance multibit DACs perform well beyond the discernable threshold relevant to home audio.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 9:28 PM Post #746 of 1,344
 
  It's not "comparable performance".
 
However the performance of the multibit DAC may be unneeded and unnecessary for 99% of listeners, just as 99% of people are not targeting weapons or performing MRIs.

No No No NO.
 
If you want to claim a difference in performance you're going to have to prove it. And anecdotes from sighted listening don't cut the mustard, laddy.
 
By every rational measure both ΔΣ and high-performance multibit DACs perform well beyond the discernable threshold relevant to home audio.


No, I am sorry, but fools have let this argument slide for years.
 
If I am judging a BBQ Chicken competition, I do not have to provide a spectrograph measurement proving that one is better than the other.  The venue of food tasting is subjective, by defintion.
 
The venue of music listening is by definition, subjective.
 
If you want to claim that a set of measurements perfectly reflects all aspects of subjective sound quality, then the burden of proof is on you.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 9:50 PM Post #748 of 1,344
 
No, I am sorry, but fools have let this argument slide for years.
 
If I am judging a BBQ Chicken competition, I do not have to provide a spectrograph measurement proving that one is better than the other.  The venue of foot tasting is subjective, by defintion.
 
The venue of music listening is by definition, subjective.
 
If you want to claim that a set of measurements perfectly reflects all aspects of subjective sound quality, then the burden of proof is on you.

If you're judging a BBQ Chicken competition then everyone's just having a bit of fun and whoever wins doesn't really matter. Are you saying home audio is just a BBQ contest? Well, ok, but there are some people out there paying serious money for their chicken, maybe you should let them know.
 
Look, why don't you just admit that you don't have any rational foundation to claim that multibit is better? Please, do us all a favour. If you want to come here and say you believe something, then fine, you've got a perfect right to do that. But so what, do you really expect to change someone's mind by just making a bald assertion? (Sadly, it is true that just repeating the same thing over and over again can change people's minds, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you aren't the sort of vile miscreant that would adopt such a tactic on purpose.)
 
Yes, listening to music is a subjective experience, but subjective experiences can be measured with the right experiments. It's a pretty tricky part of neuropsychology and it often needs a lot of refinement and expertise to get the experimental conditions right, but it can be done. So go and do it, then come back and tell us what you found.
 
What, you aren't going to? ... Thought so. As I've said before, the people who make these subjective claims don't go and do (or fund) the relevant experiments because they're not actually interested in the results.
 
Jan 25, 2016 at 9:56 PM Post #750 of 1,344
 
 
No, I am sorry, but fools have let this argument slide for years.
 
If I am judging a BBQ Chicken competition, I do not have to provide a spectrograph measurement proving that one is better than the other.  The venue of foot tasting is subjective, by defintion.
 
The venue of music listening is by definition, subjective.
 
If you want to claim that a set of measurements perfectly reflects all aspects of subjective sound quality, then the burden of proof is on you.

If you're judging a BBQ Chicken competition then everyone's just having a bit of fun and whoever wins doesn't really matter. Are you saying home audio is just a BBQ contest? Well, ok, but there are some people out there paying serious money for their chicken, maybe you should let them know.

So far there is a 100% score of audio "objectivists" commenting on cost (I have counted several dozen).
 
Oscilloscopes do not know the price of a piece of equipment that it is measuring.
 
Cost is an emotional issue, it is all about the emotional reaction to a $10,000 cable.
 
So, it is not science, it is "you better have measurements if you are going to charge $10,000 ".
 
If two manufacturers are both making $200 amps, and one sounds like crap, you don't require anyone to submit measurements before choosing the other $200 amp.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top