[Jalo]

I would like to know the followings regarding silver cable:

By what standard do we use to judge what is a good silver cable. It seems like for copper, it's the 99.9999 oxygen free OCC copper. It is the same for silver? Or is it the purity of the silver, like 4n, 5n, 6n etc. I have been told many times that if one uses very pure, high end, silver cable, it will sound good. but no one has defined what is high end, or very pure means. Also, does solid core versus multiple cores affect the sound? If so how so. there are many headfiers here has a lot of experiences with cable like scooter, qusp etc. like to hear from them or anyone with special knowledge on the subject matter.

 

[MacedonianHero]

6N or 7N is where you want to be. There's also cable geometry, dielectric used and terminations to consider.
 
I know Moon Audio's Silver Dragons use 7N silver and are very well constructed.
 
I would avoid 4N (99.99%) silver.

 

[Jalo]

First of all, thanks, but after the debacle of the TWag v1, I am not even sure if we can test the purity beyond 4N.  Furthermore, I am seeing less and less claims regarding the number of Ns from cable manufactures/resellers other than "high qualtiy silver", "very pure silver" etc and some may even say it is proprietory for fear that they may not be able to back up their advertised claims.  
 
Second, I have never seen or read a single review that compare the difference between 4N, 5N, 6N, 7N etc if there is indeed a differences.  It is always assumed the more Ns the better.  Just like 99% oxygen free sounds better than 98% or 97% oxygen free.  It is an assumption, not that it can not be true, but I have never seen any review on that.  In addition, I have never seen this rule applies to gold.  When it comes to gold, it is always just gold or gold plated but never said it is 4N, 5N or 6N gold plated.  
 
Third, I was told by an engineer at Kimber cable that many times it is what is in that 0.01 or 0.001 or 0.0001 that makes up the difference.  Whatever that is that make up the nonsilver portion could be inhibiting or enhancing the performance of the cable.
 
As for the Silver Dragon cable, yes I have that also.  But we have to accept that Moon, ALO, APS, Whiplash, Kimber, DHC......and the rest of the cable resellers do not refine their own metal.  They buy them from a few producers.  And the purity was only told by their producers but never come with a certificate of proof.  And as we can see from the TWag event, most resellers do not test their resell cable, otherwise, you will see that certificate pasting all over their website.  And if the number of Ns is one factor that is so crucial to the sound of the silver cable, wouldn't you think we as customer needs to see more proofs?  When I buy a gold ring or bracelet from a jewelry store, the composition is guaranteed.  But some of these silver cables worth even more than a ring but it is not proved.

 

[scootermafia]

The metal is bought from a refinery, but I do get a yearly report.  

 

[Lenni]

Quote:

First of all, thanks, but after the debacle of the TWag v1, I am not even sure if we can test the purity beyond 4N.  Furthermore, I am seeing less and less claims regarding the number of Ns from cable manufactures/resellers other than "high qualtiy silver", "very pure silver" etc and some may even say it is proprietory for fear that they may not be able to back up their advertised claims.  
 
Second, I have never seen or read a single review that compare the difference between 4N, 5N, 6N, 7N etc if there is indeed a differences.  It is always assumed the more Ns the better.  Just like 99% oxygen free sounds better than 98% or 97% oxygen free.  It is an assumption, not that it can not be true, but I have never seen any review on that.  In addition, I have never seen this rule applies to gold.  When it comes to gold, it is always just gold or gold plated but never said it is 4N, 5N or 6N gold plated.  
 
Third, I was told by an engineer at Kimber cable that many times it is what is in that 0.01 or 0.001 or 0.0001 that makes up the difference.  Whatever that is that make up the nonsilver portion could be inhibiting or enhancing the performance of the cable.
 
As for the Silver Dragon cable, yes I have that also.  But we have to accept that Moon, ALO, APS, Whiplash, Kimber, DHC......and the rest of the cable resellers do not refine their own metal.  They buy them from a few producers.  And the purity was only told by their producers but never come with a certificate of proof.  And as we can see from the TWag event, most resellers do not test their resell cable, otherwise, you will see that certificate pasting all over their website.  And if the number of Ns is one factor that is so crucial to the sound of the silver cable, wouldn't you think we as customer needs to see more proofs?  When I buy a gold ring or bracelet from a jewelry store, the composition is guaranteed.  But some of these silver cables worth even more than a ring but it is not proved.

 
X2
 
I often wondered about the purity of the conductors myself. It would be nice if vendors would produce a certificate about the quality of metal used, especially for the more expensive ones. I find it strange that this has not been requested more by cable users, and is not a standard practice. There must be an explanation.  At the moment we have to trust the vendor, and hope for the best. I certainly would like to try cables made with various quality of silver, for example, to see if I can hear a difference without knowing which is which. that’d be interesting.
 
I think Antipodes makes their own cables from ingots.
 
 

 

[Pricklely Peete]

That other metal in the silver (5N's whatever) is what intrigued me about the Mundorf silver/gold alloy concept....specifically because of the fact that silver will corrode if not stabilized (either by a coating or an alloy mix). The idea behind the Mundorf S/G wire is to use the 1% gold content to stabilize the silver....it's also helpful that gold is a good conductor of electricity, every bit as good as silver, if not slightly better.
 
As for gold...the purity is measured by Karat...10K, 14K, 18K, 22K and 24K.
 
Peete.

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

it's also helpful that gold is a good conductor of electricity, every bit as good as silver, if not slightly better.

 
Huh? Gold's not even as good a conductor as copper let alone silver.
 
Quote:

As for gold...the purity is measured by Karat...10K, 14K, 18K, 22K and 24K.

 
Yeah, for jewelry. Otherwise its purity is measured as a percentage.
 
se
 

 

[DaveBSC]

The silver I like to see is either 5N+, or preferably something made using the Ohno Continuous Cast process. Silver got its bad reputation for very sterile, bleached, and antiseptic sound from poor quality silver. The good stuff can sound fantastic... but then so can copper. Kubala Sosna Elation and the top Jorma cables are some of the very best in the world, and they do not use a drop of silver.

Siltech uses a very small amount of gold in its silver wire in order to "fill in" the grain boundaries, so they say. The Mundorf wire is very similar. Gold is extraordinary at conducting heat, not electricity. Its easily beaten by copper, let alone silver or stuff like palladium. Gold is used for plating over copper because it does not oxidize, and it sounds much better than other types of non corrosive plating like nickel. Gold also has a tendency to soften and sweeten the sound slightly, which is evident in Siltech cables and the Mundorf wire. The sound is warmer, with a mellower top end than a pure silver cable would be. Gold plated connectors also have this effect when compared to connectors plated with rhodium or platinum/palladium.

By multiple cores, do you mean stranded? Stranded wire is nice because its very cheap to make, and you can make very large single conductors (10AWG+) that can remain flexible. The downside is the so called "strand interaction" issue, where the signal jumps from strand to strand at the cost of sound quality. Most, though not all, high-end cables are round or rectangular solid core, while a few such as Cardas and Nirvana use litz.

 

[nikp]

Quote:

6N or 7N is where you want to be. There's also cable geometry, dielectric used and terminations to consider.
 
I know Moon Audio's Silver Dragons use 7N silver and are very well constructed.
 
I would avoid 4N (99.99%) silver.

Hi, if 4N = 99.99% then what's 6N/7N?
 

 

[Steve Eddy]

Quote:

Hi, if 4N = 99.99% then what's 6N/7N?
 

 
0.9999991.

 
6N is 99.9999% and 7N is 99.99999%.
 
se
 

 

[nikp]

Quote:

 
0.9999991.

 
6N is 99.9999% and 7N is 99.99999%.
 
se
 

WOW! Thanks for the clarification Steve Eddy!
 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Quote:

 
0.9999991.

 
6N is 99.9999% and 7N is 99.99999%.
 
se
 

Thanks Steve.
 

 

[Chris_Himself]

The Mundorf is some good sounding stuff, but in terms of purity, it's nothing special sadly. It's the brightness of silver and the 1% gold does add a little warmth. The problem is that it's solid core and comes in this 24AWG size only limited it's usage to only headphone cables for people tolerant of a slightly stiffer cable, or some RCA's. Also it only comes in white or yellow dielectric, or the bare version that you'd have to PTFE yourself.
 
I think that the increasing number of 9's in the purity of wire is just scientific advancement, it doesn't necessarily represent an absolute gain in sound quality. I am firm in believing that the technique and quality to which a DIY cable is built has more to do with SQ than if you were to use 6 or 7N OCC silver or copper. The braiding, insulation, solder used, and actual soldering, are probably what make a difference, but if you can use the absolute most pure wire that you can for not that much more, why not?
 
As for gold vs copper/silver, gold is used on PCB and plug contacts due to their corrosion resistance, copper exposed to air over time will corrode and degrade, where gold won't.

 

[DaveBSC]

The Mundorf is some good sounding stuff, but in terms of purity, it's nothing special sadly. It's the brightness of silver and the 1% gold does add a little warmth. The problem is that it's solid core and comes in this 24AWG size only limited it's usage to only headphone cables for people tolerant of a slightly stiffer cable, or some RCA's. Also it only comes in white or yellow dielectric, or the bare version that you'd have to PTFE yourself.
 
I think that the increasing number of 9's in the purity of wire is just scientific advancement, it doesn't necessarily represent an absolute gain in sound quality. I am firm in believing that the technique and quality to which a DIY cable is built has more to do with SQ than if you were to use 6 or 7N OCC silver or copper. The braiding, insulation, solder used, and actual soldering, are probably what make a difference, but if you can use the absolute most pure wire that you can for not that much more, why not?
 
As for gold vs copper/silver, gold is used on PCB and plug contacts due to their corrosion resistance, copper exposed to air over time will corrode and degrade, where gold won't.

Yeah the quality of the silver that Mundorf is using is good, but not great. You can get it in other sizes though, they offer an 18AWG version for $25/ft, and a 15.5AWG version for $50/ft. Solid core wire that size though presents its own problems. For hook up wire, I really like the copper and silver that VH audio sells in their Airlok dielectric. It's what I'm using to internally wire my KGSSHV.

I agree that wire geometry is really important. You can use the exact same wire arranged different ways, and make dramatic changes to the capacitance and inductance of the cable. Soldering just comes down to old fashioned workmanship. A high quality soldering job will definitely sound better. The type of solder used also makes a difference. I've seen as high as 5.2% silver solder, but that stuff aint cheap. For connectors, I like Furutech rhodium.

 

[Chris_Himself]

Quote:

Yeah the quality of the silver that Mundorf is using is good, but not great. You can get it in other sizes though, they offer an 18AWG version for $25/ft, and a 15.5AWG version for $50/ft. Solid core wire that size though presents its own problems. For hook up wire, I really like the copper and silver that VH audio sells in their Airlok dielectric. It's what I'm using to internally wire my KGSSHV.
I agree that wire geometry is really important. You can use the exact same wire arranged different ways, and make dramatic changes to the capacitance and inductance of the cable. Soldering just comes down to old fashioned workmanship. A high quality soldering job will definitely sound better. The type of solder used also makes a difference. I've seen as high as 5.2% silver solder, but that stuff aint cheap. For connectors, I like Furutech rhodium.

Haha you're definitely in the know when it comes to this stuff, you can be my wingman in the cable-fi crusade anytime!
 
VH audio's stuff is great, but the prices that silver commands is a little too much for the average consumer to DIY himself. As for internal wiring, I still use copper for all my projects just for it's cost, plus I want to build the amp true to it's design so I want to avoid any internal coloration for the time being... I do truthfully use Homegrown Audio OCC copper because it's fairly cheap (like 0.75/ft), it's high quality, and the people behind the brand are good people who are supporting people on a budget.

It's a real shame that Mr. Lee from Cryoparts passed, there was some great gear passing through those doors, and for some of the things that place produced, you really are not going to be able to find alternatives for. Their carbon fiber 3.5mm's were to die for!