[NorCal]

I'm looking for answers to several questions, specifically by the more active SS posters, although anyone can obviously reply. The reason, is because I respect your opinions, based upon reading many of the SS threads.

I know you guys are not carbon copies, of each other, as I've seen some good debates among yourselves. I don't expect any proof, just your opinions on the question at hand.

First question.
Do you feel that there is any audible difference between a cheap CD player's output stage, (likely implemented with ic op-amps), and a high end player's discreet solid state output stage?

If most agree, I won't feel the need for that $1300 Oppo, I've been eyeing, and just be happy with my "budget" $500 Oppo.

This question came about after seeing a post where Bigshot said something about his $60 Walmart CD player sounding as good as his Oppo player.

 

[skwoodwiva]

I'm looking for answers to several questions, specifically by the more active SS posters, although anyone can obviously reply. The reason, is because I respect your opinions, based upon reading many of the SS threads.

I know you guys are not carbon copies, of each other, as I've seen some good debates among yourselves. I don't expect any proof, just your opinions on the question at hand.

First question.
Do you feel that there is any audible difference between a cheap CD player's output stage, (likely implemented with ic op-amps), and a high end player's discreet solid state output stage?

If most agree, I won't feel the need for that $1300 Oppo, I've been eyeing, and just be happy with my "budget" $500 Oppo.

This question came about after seeing a post where Bigshot said something about his $60 Walmart CD player sounding as good as his Oppo player.

absolutely different.

I used to get the best op amps as samlpes.
You just ask online solder in. It is a snap.

If you want ebay stuff I can advise

 

[NorCal]

absolutely different.

I used to get the best op amps as samlpes.
You just ask online solder in. It is a snap.

If you want ebay stuff I can advise

Thanks, but I'm not planning any DIYs, or mods. I know there are some really nice op-amps ... some very pricey too.

But if a $60 CD player's output, [likely with a $1 or less op-amp], can sound as good as an Oppo's output, this has major ramifications.

 

[skwoodwiva]

Thanks, but I'm not planning any DIYs, or mods. I know there are some really nice op-amps ... some very pricey too.

But if a $60 CD player's output, [likely with a $1 or less op-amp], can sound as good as an Oppo's output, this has major ramifications.

Indeed a good op amp is all it needs & short the output caps.
Boom you in another league

 

[castleofargh]

Indeed a good op amp is all it needs & short the output caps.
Boom you in another league

another of your certainties based on your opinion form uncontrolled experience?
you know that protection caps probably weren't added for the sole purpose of creating trouble. how dumb would a designer be if he could improve his gear by not adding caps at the output, but did it anyway for no reason?

Do you feel that there is any audible difference between a cheap CD player's output stage, (likely implemented with ic op-amps), and a high end player's discreet solid state output stage?

it's not like there can be one clear answer to this question. different gears are likely to show some differences somewhere, what make those differences relevant or not are IMO:
- the magnitude of the change compared to the fidelity of the rest of the playback chain
- if it's going to be audible, and if so, does it matter to you?
- is it a good way to use the money for you?

you have 2 specific devices in mind, so of course the best option would be to try them and measure them before making a final decision, but maybe you don't have such an option?

if you don't have big issues with your CD player, then personally that's not the first place I would look at to improve my playback chain. doesn't mean I wouldn't at some point, but that wouldn't be my first stop for sure.

 

[NorCal]

another of your certainties based on your opinion form uncontrolled experience?
you know that protection caps probably weren't added for the sole purpose of creating trouble. how dumb would a designer be if he could improve his gear by not adding caps at the output, but did it anyway for no reason?




it's not like there can be one clear answer to this question. different gears are likely to show some differences somewhere, what make those differences relevant or not are IMO:
- the magnitude of the change compared to the fidelity of the rest of the playback chain
- if it's going to be audible, and if so, does it matter to you?
- is it a good way to use the money for you?

you have 2 specific devices in mind, so of course the best option would be to try them and measure them before making a final decision, but maybe you don't have such an option?

if you don't have big issues with your CD player, then personally that's not the first place I would look at to improve my playback chain. doesn't mean I wouldn't at some point, but that wouldn't be my first stop for sure.

After reading a lot of posts on SS, i believe most of the posters believe that transducers are the most important upgrade. I'm really happy with my HD-650s, but I still want to add one additional set, to make sure I'm not missing something greater. Probably a planar, for a different perspective.

I'm also impressed with my inexpensive Magni 3, but see so many balanced, and or, tube options. However I've been convinced by some SS posts that balanced isn't important for most home setups. This is of major importance when picking components.

I can save major coin and have many more choices, thanks to the SS posts that I've seen. But I also get the impression that some top SS posters, think amps don't matter either, (which is related to my question on the CD players' output stage question i.e. op-amp vs. discreet).

Second Question
If you already had your dream transducers, would you upgrade your amp? And what would the maximum you would spend, assuming you had the cash to burn. In other words what do you SS guys think is a reasonable return on investment, for a HP amp?

 

[skwoodwiva]

After reading a lot of posts on SS, i believe most of the posters believe that transducers are the most important upgrade. I'm really happy with my HD-650s, but I still want to add one additional set, to make sure I'm not missing something greater. Probably a planar, for a different perspective.

I'm also impressed with my inexpensive Magni 3, but see so many balanced, and or, tube options. However I've been convinced by some SS posts that balanced isn't important for most home setups. This is of major importance when picking components.

I can save major coin and have many more choices, thanks to the SS posts that I've seen. But I also get the impression that some top SS posters, think amps don't matter either, (which is related to my question on the CD players' output stage question i.e. op-amp vs. discreet).

Second Question
If you already had your dream transducers, would you upgrade your amp? And what would the maximum you would spend, assuming you had the cash to burn. In other words what do you SS guys think is a reasonable return on investment, for a HP amp?

My android phone, believe it or not is my amp/DAC I am sure if I spent a grand on better cans it would not be foolish.

Cans do not need a lot of amp.
Spend money on best you can AKG 701 or mine Sony mdr.
Then worry about driving it better if ever.

 

[NorCal]

My android phone, believe it or not is my amp/DAC I am sure if I spent a grand on better cans it would not be foolish.

Cans do not need a lot of amp.
Spend money on best you can AKG 701 or mine Sony mdr.
Then worry about driving it better if ever.

As mentioned, I do plan to get another set of headphones first.

Some planers, like the Mr. Speakers Aeon Flow, at ~16 ohms, would likely best be matched to something like the Schiit Lyr 3, that can drive 9 watts at 16 ohms.
Even my Magni 3 will do 3 watts into 16 ohms.

But I'm looking to also add an additional amp next Autumn, but more for a different sound characteristic, like something with tubes, i.e Lyr 3. Maybe tube magic is hype as well. IDK, but this is why I'm asking questions here.

 

[bigshot]

This question came about after seeing a post where Bigshot said something about his $60 Walmart CD player sounding as good as his Oppo player.

I should tell you why I have an Oppo and a $60 Walmart DVD player... I have the Oppo because I wanted to be able to play MKV files off of thumb drives, I wanted a simple region free hardware mod, I wanted Darbee, I needed the extra inputs and outputs, and I wanted the high quality video processing features in the Oppo. I have the Walmart player because all I need in the bedroom is a way to play episodes of old TV shows that I have on DVD.

The reason to buy a player is for features.

it's not like there can be one clear answer to this question. different gears are likely to show some differences somewhere

It can be answered. I've done a careful comparison test and my Oppo does sound identical to a cheap DVD player. Try it yourself. You'll find the same.

I've also compared the HA-1 as well and it sounds the same. I doubt that the high end Oppo blu-ray player would be any different than the HA-1.

By the way, I have the Oppo PM-1s and they sound fantastic and don't require amping. I plug them directly into my iPhone and they sound great. I don't use my HA-1 any more because I don't have any use for it.

 

[gregorio]

I'm looking for answers to several questions, specifically by the more active SS posters, although anyone can obviously reply....
[1] Do you feel that there is any audible difference between a cheap CD player's output stage, (likely implemented with ic op-amps), and a high end player's discreet solid state output stage?
[2] If you already had your dream transducers, would you upgrade your amp?

1. As a general rule, there would be no audible difference. However, this is a general rule, not a specific one. Without testing the particular unit we cannot be absolutely sure the CD player in question doesn't have some serious design flaw which precludes it from following the general rule.

2. It's a similar rule with amps, providing the amps have enough power/correct impedance to drive the cans, then in general, "no, I wouldn't", there'd be no difference. The exception with amps are those specifically NOT designed for high-fidelity. Some of those with tubes for example, which are designed to distort the signal.

G

 

[bigshot]

There are defective units out there. That's why it's good to run a controlled listening test to make sure something sounds and operates properly so you can return it during the return window (or warranty term). If something is defective, odds are it will be defective big so it won't be hard to spot.

I haven't run across anything with serious design flaws. If someone can point to an example of that, it would be helpful for other people to avoid it. I keep asking for that, but no one seems to know any. I really think you can go to Amazon and just randomly pick an amp or player and its line output is going to be well within audible transparency. Not an issue to worry about.

 

[NorCal]

Sounds like my future equipment purchases will not be as extravagant as I had planned. [Should make the wife happy too].

I had already formed the opinion on sticking with relatively inexpensive cables. Although in the past I figured maybe there might be some very, very slight improvement to SQ with super expensive cables. Later on, I figured if there were differences, the cheaper cable might sound better maybe half the cases, due to system differences.

So, I guess more can be budgeted on the headphones.
Thanks!

 

[castleofargh]

in an ideal world, or when it's practical, we would pick the headphone first, then find the amp to go with it. be it for fidelity, or taste. some specific thing related to impedance and how some amp design might roll off the low end of a low impedance headphone, but would work amazing with a high impedance one. or for reasons as simple as having a convenient device. people tend to associate good amp with massive gain. well so long as the result measures well it's fine, but when the gain is so high that you basically have 3° on the knob to go from too quiet to too loud, it's really not a lot of fun to use. I'd also consider the inputs/outputs I might wish to use, that alone can filter out a bunch of amps.
I personally have decided that I would not buy stuff anymore unless a reasonable amount of measurements was provided. so to me when an amp doesn't provide power output at 1%THD into at least 3 different loads, I reject it. if the power specs are so unclear I can't tell if it's max power or max power per channel or max power @1% THD. I reject it. if I can't find the impedance output, rejected. those are simple measurements that anybody can get, I assume that if a brand doesn't provide them, they have something to hide or are so unprofessional that they fail to write down a proper nomenclature on their website. both ideas make me want to stay away.
that said, in my experience, amp manufacturers tend to be a honest bunch. so sometimes when some information I want is missing, just sending them a mail will do the trick and get me a fair answer. OMG I just said I trusted some people, quick my skepticism pills!

 

[bigshot]

So, I guess more can be budgeted on the headphones.

That's the best place to put your money.

 

[ev13wt]

I have been AMAZED at the awesome sound of my new shiny DAC. For days. Until I figured out it wasn't even selected as source and I was still listening to onboard audio.
NOW it sounded different.
A week later I figured out why: the left and right was screwed up by the Chinese factory (3.5mm to RCA)
Then... it sounded just like the onboard (my onboard didn't do stupid stuff like make noises when moving the mouse etc)

This was quite a bit ago. These days I don't even care what DAC is in some device.