[Carnifex]

Strange issue here, wondering if there's an explanation for it ---
 
Just today hooked up a modi 2 U + magni 2 U to my SBZ using SPDIF/out from the sound card. I kept "speakers" as my default playback, and checked the "Play stereo mix to digital output" box in the "Advanced" tab of the sound blaster control panel (if this box isn't checked, no sound comes through the headphones). When I tested the HD 650's with the schiit stack vs directly into the sound card, I noticed the sound has more punch to it straight from the SBZ. Using the schiit stack almost seems to tone down the bass and homogenize the sound to a more even level.
 
Is this just a property of the schiit stack or is something wrong here? I'd expect it to sound 10x better.

 

[Me x3]

  Strange issue here, wondering if there's an explanation for it ---
 
Just today hooked up a modi 2 U + magni 2 U to my SBZ using SPDIF/out from the sound card. I kept "speakers" as my default playback, and checked the "Play stereo mix to digital output" box in the "Advanced" tab of the sound blaster control panel (if this box isn't checked, no sound comes through the headphones). When I tested the HD 650's with the schiit stack vs directly into the sound card, I noticed the sound has more punch to it straight from the SBZ. Using the schiit stack almost seems to tone down the bass and homogenize the sound to a more even level.
 
Is this just a property of the schiit stack or is something wrong here? I'd expect it to sound 10x better.

Schiit MM2U combo is a neutralish setup, more volume and just a tad more refinement is what you get.
I don't think you'll find something that's 10x better than HD650 + SBZ no matter how much you spend on headphone/amp/dac setup.
 
First time I tried the Magni (some years ago) I was very used to a classic FiiO E10 (not the newer E10K).
Magni was slightly clearer in the treble and slightly lighter in the bass relative to the E10.
Not night and day differences, since both are neutral setups, but yeah, the FiiO was slightly warmer overall.
 
If you want something more laid back than the Magni 2U get a Vali 2 instead.

 

[Carnifex]

Ah I figured. Thanks!
 
On a side note, I realized I mistakenly had the amp set to LO. It actually made quite a difference lol.

 

[gerryS]

Hey Carnifex,
 
Interested in your thoughts on how the schiit combo compares to the soundblaster. Is it a huge difference? I also have a pair of 650's and a soundblaster z card in my desktop. I ordered the schiit stack mainly for my laptop which has terrible audio, but I'm curious to see how it compares with the soundblaster as well. This is my first external DAC/Amp I have purchased and had to go off of reviews since there really isn't anywhere nearby where I can try out audio equipment, so I'm not really sure what to expect. Should be arriving sometime this week. 

 

[Carnifex]

Sounds like we have pretty similar situations, gerry. I've only been using the schiit stack 2 U since earlier today. But there is a notable difference. SBZ directly to the 650s has more rumbling bass, the kind that you feel vibrate in your head. However, it pushes out some of the detail of songs. The schiit stack has a more refined and toned-back bass that allows all of the detail of the song to come forward -- I noticed a lot of tiny things revealed in songs I hadn't noticed before. It overall makes each "component" of a song sound very clear and audible, as opposed to being blended together. 
 
I hope this makes sense so far.
 
Bottom line, I'll be keeping my 650's plugged into the schiit stack. If I desire more bass, I'll just swap out the 650s for my Fidelio X2s, which btw are also notably improved by the schiit stack (certainly better than plugged into the SBZ).
 
 
EDIT: I'll add that I actually used an optic cable to plug the schiit stack into the SBZ. There's no real benefit to this (as far as I'm aware) other than you can use the EQ and the 5.1 surround, which to me was worth it since I play with the EQ all the time.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnifex /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Just today hooked up a modi 2 U + magni 2 U to my SBZ using SPDIF/out from the sound card. I kept "speakers" as my default playback, and checked the "Play stereo mix to digital output" box in the "Advanced" tab of the sound blaster control panel (if this box isn't checked, no sound comes through the headphones).

 

Well, of course it won't have any sound - checking that box is telling the soundcard to output a digital signal to the Modi2U. If you didn't check that box then its default output is its own analogue headphone output.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnifex /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

When I tested the HD 650's with the schiit stack vs directly into the sound card, I noticed the sound has more punch to it straight from the SBZ. Using the schiit stack almost seems to tone down the bass and homogenize the sound to a more even level.

 

Is this just a property of the schiit stack or is something wrong here?

 

Well, for starters, which one has measurements online and which one has a DSP? Schiit gear are designed to add as little distortion and noise as possible. What you're going to hear out of them is closer to what the recording is supposed to sound like barring using whatever monitors were used when it was recorded, mixed, and mastered.

 

The soundcard on the other hand has a DSP which, given marketing demands on top of other things, would be more likely to utilize that DSP to enhance the sound to what the target market deems "better." Even the output impedance of the SBZ is too high, likely since they're gambling that on some lower impedance cans, it can result in the loss of damping factor enhancing the bass rather than trimming it.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carnifex /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I'd expect it to sound 10x better.

 

You might just be more of the target market of the SBZ than Schiit. Look at it in headphone terms - the HE400i and HD600 have a relatively smoother curve, but there are people who swear that the jagged response curve of Grados is 100x better. I personally would sit back in an empty living room or hotel room with a Grado RS1 if I could afford it (still hoping I'd get lucky enough to snag a used one relatively cheap, because I'm not paying $700 for less accuracy), but if I'm sitting to symphonic metal and classical on my home rig, I'm more likely to replace my HD600 with an HE400i. For my money I just err on the side of higher accuracy since as long as I don't over do it I can EQ the upper bass to mimic the percussion on Grados, at least until I can get an RS1 (or my dream headphone for casual listening, the Headphile Vixxen, a Beyer chassis reconfigured with RS1 drivers).

 

In this case though to others the Schiit stack would be better. I wouldn't say "10x better" either, but it's more likely to be the one that isn't modifying the signal, and thus closer to the original sound, which is what "hi-fi," ie, "high fidelity," is about.

 

Apart from going back to the SBZ, you could ditch the amplifier and DAC and just hook up the soundcard to a warmifying boombasticator instead of an amplifier. Try the Little Dot MkII (don't get the slightly more neutral MkIII, much less the Valhalla2 and Vali2), then check the MkII tube rolling thread for whatever tubes can really make for enhanced bass slam and vocals that seem symptomatic of a blocked sinus. Get a Van Den Hul 3.5mm to RCA cable to hook up the SBZ to the MkII if you can afford it, but chances are it can cost as much as the MkII.

 

 

 
ifference. SBZ directly to the 650s has more rumbling bass, the kind that you feel vibrate in your head. However, it pushes out some of the detail of songs. 

 

This is again likely some kind of EQ boost, or since it doesn't apply to the digital output, either it's disabled via digital output, or it's distortion in the amplifier stage of the SBZ. I'm going to guess it's more likely the latter.

 

It's also an example of how more isn't always better, and in some ways, is a lot like how people can have a different set up in HT and 2ch HiFi. In the latter, which is a lot more like the Schiit stack, people would rather accept a bass roll off as long as it's audible enough and everything else is clear, especially the midrange. When a sub is used it's typically just filling in the roll off on the speakers, typically with a gentle crossover curve set low, just catching the -3dB of the speakers. In HT, which is more like what the SBZ is for - ie, HT receivers like soundcards have DSP, one clearly for games the other for movies, etc - the subwoofer isn't just to fill in the sound but to create as much rumble as possible.

 

The same setting that people use to shake their house all throughout a Michael Bay movie - higher crossover cut-off, higher gain, etc - is typically a horrible setting for audio as it will be like playing jazz with fast double bass plucking in a ghetto Cadillac with 4x12in Audiobahn subz blasting bass all over da hood challenging the other gangs to come out for their holiday kris kringle of hot lead. Kind of like a Michael Bay movie, actually. "Bad boys, bad boys, whatcha gon' do...whatcha gon' do when they come for ya?" Yeah, as you might guess, I'm amped for Bad Boys III; sadly I can't say the same for Transformers IV: Because Michael Bay Doesn't Understand Galvatron.
 

 
The schiit stack has a more refined and toned-back bass that allows all of the detail of the song to come forward -- I noticed a lot of tiny things revealed in songs I hadn't noticed before. It overall makes each "component" of a song sound very clear and audible, as opposed to being blended together. 

 

You increase the response in some stretch of the range and it will start making the other sections less audible. In the same manner the very low bass might be difficult to hear on many dynamic headphones due to the plateau in the upper bass, but on some planars, the low bass is very audible due to a flat response. Some people will prefer the slam on the percussion in the dynamic headphone, some will prefer the more balanced presentation on the planar.

 

What I've done which prevented me from buying the HE400 and HE400i is to apply a low shelf boost at 35hz on the HD600, then a wide but low gain trim centered at 150hz. In geological/engineering terms, it's like eroding a mountain range so as to fill in the valley to the other side, so you end up with a plateau that's easier to get to the top of.

 

 

 
Bottom line, I'll be keeping my 650's plugged into the schiit stack. If I desire more bass, I'll just swap out the 650s for my Fidelio X2s, which btw are also notably improved by the schiit stack (certainly better than plugged into the SBZ).

 

If the bass is also a lot tighter on the Fidelio X2 then chances are it's also more likely amplifier distortion on the SBZ, as this one has a very low impedance load to the AFAIK 30ohm output impedance of that soundcard.
 

 
EDIT: I'll add that I actually used an optic cable to plug the schiit stack into the SBZ. There's no real benefit to this (as far as I'm aware) other than you can use the EQ and the 5.1 surround, which to me was worth it since I play with the EQ all the time.

 

That is the real benefit to it - you get to use a cleaner amp (the Magni), a DAC with likely cleaner signal to the amp (the Modi2, but chances are that's the output stage and the shorter analogue path than the DAC chip), all while retaining the use of the DSP of the SBZ.

 

[Carnifex]

 

 

Apart from going back to the SBZ, you could ditch the amplifier and DAC and just hook up the soundcard to a warmifying boombasticator instead of an amplifier.

 
Nah, I was more curious than anything if my equipment was working correctly. You mentioned the valhalla, though. At some point in the future I did want to pick up a tube amp, and the valhalla seems reasonably priced. I'm assuming you have this amp since you mentioned it. How would you compare it to the magni 2 U?

 

[gerryS]

If your looking for tube amp, the DarkVoice 336SE showed up on massdrop for $199. I'm new to audiophile equipment so I couldn't tell you if its any good, but I think it's a fairly popular amp and seems like a good deal. Might be something to look into. I might have considered it if I hadn't just dropped a bunch of money on the schiit stack.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Originally Posted by Carnifex /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Nah, I was more curious than anything if my equipment was working correctly. You mentioned the valhalla, though. At some point in the future I did want to pick up a tube amp, and the valhalla seems reasonably priced. I'm assuming you have this amp since you mentioned it. How would you compare it to the magni 2 U?

 

I got to try the original Valhalla (plus the Lyr and Asgard) in a meet before, then some time later the Magni (not the v2). The Valhalla has slightly more "oomph" to the low end than the Magni and Asgard, very likely due to the high voltage output that favors 300ohms, so it's slightly more effortless (note that I didn't totally equalize them at 1000hz with a mic, only by ear), and cymbal strikes are slightly less grating on the Valhalla, slightly pushed back a little bit but the overall tone isn't really affected. Very subtle difference. If you're sure to use only high impedance cans then the Valhalla is worth it; otherwise the versatility and lower price of the Magni2 make the Valhalla tough to justify.

 

[MindsMirror]

If I recall correctly, my (now broken) SBZ had a neutral headphone output just like my Schiit stack. The ~32 ohm output impedance won't do anything significant to the ~300 Ohm HD650, and the SBZ amp should have plenty of power for it without distorting the bass response.
 
Do you have any EQ, bass boost, SBX, or any other enhancements enabled in the SoundBlaster control panel? I'm not sure which of these are applied to the mix which it sends to the digital output, but I suspect this may be the cause of the difference you hear. These settings may even be dependent on the volume setting, so if you set it to 100% when you hook up the Schiit stack, it may be processed differently than when you lower it for the SBZ headphone output.
 
Given that you said the gain switch made quite a difference (it shouldn't), you may also not be matching the volume well enough.

 

[gerryS]

OK, so I did some comparisons between the schiit stack I ordered and the soundblaster. I have an A/B switch that lets me switch between two different sources. Used my laptop hooked up to the schiit stack as one source and my PC with the soundblaster as the other, made sure no EQ or effects were on, started both at the same time and adjusted to get a seemless transition from one source to the other. I cannot tell any difference at all between the schiit stack and the soundblaster. However, if I take the magni out of the equation and just use the DAC and compare, the bass drops off considerably. This leads me to believe that the amp and dac on the soundblaster z is doing a pretty good job powering these headphones and that someone looking to buy the 650's does at least need an amp as it made a pretty huge difference. 
 
Interestingly, I also did an A/B comparison between the schiit stack and just my iphone 5 plugged in and also noticed no difference at all, which I found strange because everything I read about these headphones told me that they would sound like crap if I just plugged them into an iphone. So apparently the iphone 5 has some sort of built in amp and can drive these just fine, or at least as good as $250 of schiit. Or maybe my hearing just sucks...

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  However, if I take the magni out of the equation and just use the DAC and compare, the bass drops off considerably.

 

How did you "take the Magni out of the equation"? You just hooked up the headphone to the Modi?

 

That's like taking a Mazda Skyactive-equipped vehicle, removing the 185hp gasoline engine and then saying it's super slow with the 10hp electric motor (which was only designed to help it through the most ineffficient part of driving with fossil fuel engines, ie, moving from a stop). It's a DAC, not an amplifier. There's a reason why you have a Digital to Analogue Converter than needs to work with an amplifier. The Modi interprets what the rest of us not in The Matrix cannot understand, from 100101001000100101000 to an electrical signal, which will then be amplified into a stronger signal with higher voltage and more current, which is why DAC outputs are measured in 1.0v to 2.2v while amps are measured in watts (or fractions thereof), peak to peak voltage swing, etc.
 

  This leads me to believe that the amp and dac on the soundblaster z is doing a pretty good job powering these headphones and that someone looking to buy the 650's does at least need an amp as it made a pretty huge difference. 

 

Again, the DAC on the SBZ is not "powering" the headphone. The best effect a DAC has on powering a headphone or speaker is how strong its line signal going to the amp is.
 
 

 
Interestingly, I also did an A/B comparison between the schiit stack ... So apparently the iphone 5 has some sort of built in amp...

 

First off, of course the iPhone has an amp. It's just that on mainstream devices what you get is an integrated audio chip with a DAC and amplifier chip inside it, as opposed to a full amplifier circuit that has a huge power supply or battery along with a capacitor bank, a full preamp circuit (for controlling its own amp stage, not necessarily a preamp output to another amp, like for speakers), etc. Voltage obviously is highly limited due to the battery itself but more on everything else that is hooked up to the battery (CPU, screen, etc). Think of that integrated audio chip like an APU, like how a Core M7 CPU chip has an HD530 graphics chip in the same die.
 

 
...also noticed no difference at all, which I found strange because everything I read about these headphones told me that they would sound like crap if I just plugged them into an iphone...can drive these just fine, or at least as good as $250 of schiit. Or maybe my hearing just sucks...

 

There are many factors involved here.Technically, anything that outputs power has "enough" power to get some or a lot of sound in terms of absolute volume output. That said, while you need a voltage driven amplifier to drive high impedance headphones, and even if these Sennheisers aren't as efficient as, say, Beyer's T5P and Grados, it still doesn't need a heck of a lot of voltage to produce a loud enough sound.

 

Basically you might be listening at a low enough volume that noise and distortion on the iPhone aren't audible enough to you. That last part is crucial, because it might be audible to others, but nevertheless it can still be at a point that these undesirable changes are still low enough. My iPad does a fine job with my HD600 when the power's out for example, but that's considering also that I don't really have much of a choice even if it has to struggle with a higher noise floor (neighbors are more likely on their yard chairs fanning themselves and drinking beer than inside with their wall, a lot of empty space, plus my wall blocking the sound off their conversations or their TVs). Still, note that there's a limit to all that - there comes a point where the extra clean power provided by the amp is just totally not used at all, even by those who listen loudly, because you still will hit the point where even such people will start hearing their ears ringing. A decent amp can help, some amps do a little bit more for not much more money, and then past that it isn't even diminishing returns anymore because the added performance isn't practically usable. And then there are people who just hear placebo.

 

At the same time what the rest of us consider to be "significant' differences doesn't necessarily mean "night and day outright." The iPhone has low enough distortion to be tonally similar to a neutral amp, but raise the volume and even if you make sure they're at the same level, at some point for example the slam of the percussion is going to be a more solid and more audible series of "thuds!" on the amp. This isn't just a matter of distortion or running out of power outright. A blacker background, either at the outset or it just piles on less noise as you squeeze more power out of the amp, can mean those thuds are simply more audible. Noise isn't always easily audible apart from setting the volume higher with nothing playing, but what noise you hear there does get in the way of how audible certain sounds are.

 

And then there's the music you're listening to. From my own music though audiophile recordings suffer less from compression into MP3 as well as variances in amplification quality than metal. This isn't because of better recording quality either, and has a lot more to do with how two acoustic guitars or a double bass with barely any drums plus vocals are an easier load on the system than two electric guitars, bass guitar, a main vocalist, a choir, plus a string quartet if not a full symphony. Amp measurements after all are done with a relatively static load - a sine sweep just plays one frequency at a time as it goes from 20hz to 20000hz. Actual music has a lot more notes encompassing a very wide range of frequencies at each second. If your music is closer to the first sort of music then you have less of a need for a more complex amplifier circuit to bring all that out of a headphone.

 

Again though it isn't necessarily just what you can't hear, but you're not driving it hard enough for the iPhone to pile on audible distortion. If everything is clear enough to you and you can enjoy that (ex if your listening area has a very low noise floor - even my room at 11pm with no distinct noise sources apart from the A/C can have as high as 18dB), then that's great.