[jmb]

I have a question for the all the veteran Head-fiers out there who have had the opportunity to test and use a variety equipment.

I am a portable listener and do not have a major home set-up or any high end headphones. I do listen to good portable headphones and use a last generation Xin Supermini.

In my experience with soundstages I always get the sense (particularly with live recordings) that the band is behind me. Almost like I am facing the crowd, or the virtual crowd for studio albums.

Sometimes I fell like I am actually on the stage with the band or in the crowd facing away for the stage. It doesn't matter how upfront or laidback the particular headphones I am using are, the "stage" always feels behind me or if I am "on stage" it feels like I'm facing the crowd.

Now, when I use the crossfeeder on the Supermini, the feelings I just described do noticeably diminish, but not completely. Unfortunately, I prefer the sound of most of my music without the crossfeeder, unless I am listening to an album that was produced with overly extreme stereo seperation (e.g. The Beatles White Album).

Is this how a soundstage is supposed to be presented, or do I just need better headphones/amps/sources?

Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[tradja]

I know this question was directed to veteran head-fier's, and I am but a noob, but here are my experiences:

Close your eyes. No kidding.

I first noticed this when listening to the famous matches binaural recording, where the box of matches seemed to cross back and forth behind my head, instead of circling my head. There is a good discussion of this phenomemon here.

EDIT: (You have email and PM disabled) Hey, where in Oregon are you?

 

[Blasyrkh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb I have a question for the all the veteran Head-fiers out there who have had the opportunity to test and use a variety equipment. I am a portable listener and do not have a major home set-up or any high end headphones. I do listen to good portable headphones and use a last generation Xin Supermini. In my experience with soundstages I always get the sense (particularly with live recordings) that the band is behind me. Almost like I am facing the crowd, or the virtual crowd for studio albums. Sometimes I fell like I am actually on the stage with the band or in the crowd facing away for the stage. It doesn't matter how upfront or laidback the particular headphones I am using are, the "stage" always feels behind me or if I am "on stage" it feels like I'm facing the crowd. Now, when I use the crossfeeder on the Supermini, the feelings I just described do noticeably diminish, but not completely. Unfortunately, I prefer the sound of most of my music without the crossfeeder, unless I am listening to an album that was produced with overly extreme stereo seperation (e.g. The Beatles White Album). Is this how a soundstage is supposed to be presented, or do I just need better headphones/amps/sources? Your comments would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

well, i think it's your perception.
however you'll never get the feeling you have with speakers. in fact with cans you'll always be near and surrounded by the musicians, instead of being in front of them at some metres of distance. it's strange that you feel like turned fro the music, it's strange, and i don't think it's a amp or cans problems, i think it's you perception

 

[Kirosia]

source and cans. Amp seems fine.

I have the kosses, and although they have some hint of soundstage; they're nothing compared to my senns. My home cd deck plays a huge factor in perceived SS. Granted, you can't really emulate speaker SS, but you'll have enough to keep in from being inside your head.

EDIT: The supermini may be a limiter as well, but I'd try to replace the other two first, then upgrade the amp if it's still a ss bottleneck. I had a supermini, but never really got a chance to use it with a good home source, so I'm not sure.

 

[BillC]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmb In my experience with soundstages I always get the sense (particularly with live recordings) that the band is behind me. Almost like I am facing the crowd, or the virtual crowd for studio albums.

Only somewhat facetiously, have you tried putting the right phone in the left ear and vice-versa in order to "turn yourself around"?

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tradja I know this question was directed to veteran head-fier's, and I am but a noob, but here are my experiences: Close your eyes. No kidding. I first noticed this when listening to the famous matches binaural recording, where the box of matches seemed to cross back and forth behind my head, instead of circling my head. There is a good discussion of this phenomemon here. EDIT: (You have email and PM disabled) Hey, where in Oregon are you?

Tried closing my eyes, in a quiet room and focusing on reversing the soundstage but it just doesn;t work.

Reminds me of when I had to used to work with stereo pairs during my archaeology days. They are aerial photographs that, when aligned properly under a streoscope, give a 3-D topographic image. There are geogrphers that can do what is called "free stereo." Meaning they can manipulate their eyes to see the image without the scope. Not the same as those 3-D posters, but similiar.

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirosia source and cans. Amp seems fine. I have the kosses, and although they have some hint of soundstage; they're nothing compared to my senns. My home cd deck plays a huge factor in perceived SS. Granted, you can't really emulate speaker SS, but you'll have enough to keep in from being inside your head. EDIT: The supermini may be a limiter as well, but I'd try to replace the other two first, then upgrade the amp if it's still a ss bottleneck. I had a supermini, but never really got a chance to use it with a good home source, so I'm not sure.

Higher grade equipment with tilted drivers might help, I think. Probably not a problem for AKG K1000 owners I bet.

Maybe even just a closed circumaural headphone?

 

[jmb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BillC Only somewhat facetiously, have you tried putting the right phone in the left ear and vice-versa in order to "turn yourself around"?

LOL

Tried that actually.

 

[overlunge]

Hi jmb,

A soundstage should represent a three dimentional image, wideth, height and depth. A closed headphone doesn't necessarily mean a small/closed soundstage, and the same applies to the open headphone. Amplification always helps to bring more depth to the image/soundstage.


Overlunge

p.s. I'm no expert but a Woodie fanboy...

 

[jmb]

I've been thinking about this seriously since I posted this thread and I think that the first problems is the music itself.

1. Studio albums are generally made with each member playing their part seperately, either spatially (sound isolation or barriers between members) and/or temporally (at different times). Thus, a true soundstage feel should be minimal in these cases and limited/affected by how the producer/engineer mixed the channels.

2. Many of the live albums I listen to are CD's remastered from soundboard reels. Thus, you should feel "onstage" or in the midst of the band, since they are recording from onstage mics/feeds that isolate each vocal and instrument.

For these types of recordings an upgrade to more accurate and transparent equipment, would provide a more emersive, enveloping, and fully surrounded feeling??

I also realized that...

The live shows I listen to that were recorded by stereo mics set-up in the audience, give the feeling of actually facing the band in the crowd. Even when the mics are shotgons on high stands.

Thus, I am starting to think that the recording itself is paramount when it comes to replication of a "soundstage."

With studio and soundboard recordings, if I turn on the crossfeed and push the headphones a little farther forward on my ears I can get the stage in front of me a bit. But...

The only problem is that you lose detail when doing this and I am a big lover of detail in my listening experience. It's what got me hooked on the need for halfway decent cans and infected me with the upgraditus bug, that is only kept in check by the meager size of my available funds.

Comments?

My next headphone purchase will be HD555's. They will be used at home with the Karma Dock's RCA line out and the Supermini (Xin's last version) powered to 13.5 Volts. I am hoping the soundstages will open up some more with this set-up.

Comments?

 

[Nandro]

I had this same type of experience with my Grado's. Whenever I would lie down with my RA-1 and my SR-60's it semed like the band was on or behind me, where when I use my X-Cans and HD-00's I feel slightly lower and in front of the band. I jokingly blamed it on lying down that the band fell to the back of my head, but it was deffinitly there. I have noticed that it does change the soundstage when I swap out opa with the 2227 being somewhat more compressed than the stock RA-1 and they actuallf feel like they are all sitting around me. My Senns deffinitly have a more open and forward presentation so you my get this from the 555's. In my case I am comparing Grado's lowest can with a top line senn with cardas cable so its not really fair. I wil try the Grado's with the tube amp and see if that has a big effect in a short while and let you know.