Question about crossfeed

[Spareribs]

This thing is that I am a lover of those old jazz stereo cds where the seperation is blatant.

 

[muckshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spareribs This thing is that I am a lover of those old jazz stereo cds where the seperation is blatant.

Decent crossfeed will make it so the separation is still evident (it's not meant to create a mono sound) but it won't sound like you have isolated speakers strapped to each ear pumping out totally different sounds. On speakers both your ears are picking up both signals simulataneously, whereas headphones isolate each ear making that separation much more evident, and therefore fatiguing. Perhaps you should download a software based crossfeed and test out a few of those Jazz CDs you have on HPs. Might help you decide if you want an amp with the feature built in.

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by muckshot Decent crossfeed will make it so the separation is still evident (it's not meant to create a mono sound) but it won't sound like you have isolated speakers strapped to each ear pumping out totally different sounds. On speakers both your ears are picking up both signals simulataneously, whereas headphones isolate each ear making that separation much more evident, and therefore fatiguing. Perhaps you should download a software based crossfeed and test out a few of those Jazz CDs you have on HPs. Might help you decide if you want an amp with the feature built in.

I have yet to hear a software crossfeed that remotely compares in quality to the HR crossfeed (I've tried them all). I'm not really sure that it gives you an accurate idea of the suitability of crossfeed for music in general, and is usually only appropriate for movies.

 

[muckshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth I have yet to hear a software crossfeed that remotely compares in quality to the HR crossfeed (I've tried them all). I'm not really sure that it gives you an accurate idea of the suitability of crossfeed for music in general, and is usually only appropriate for movies.

I figured that'd be the follow up

I suggested it so he has an idea of what he's in for before he's actually in it

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by muckshot I figured that'd be the follow up I suggested it so he has an idea of what he's in for before he's actually in it

But it's true! Though, WinDVD and the Dolby Headphone plugin is an excellent solution for movies, so I suppose that does demonstrate the concept somewhat.

I'm always a believer in getting an amp with crossfeed, simply because you aren't losing anything by having it. It's off when you don't want it, and even if you only want it for 1 in 100 recordings, it's worth it for that rare situtation. That's just my point of view, and my appreciation of crossfeed is of course one of the reasons I love HeadRoom amps so much, but it's certainly a valid feature.

 

[darkless]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth I have yet to hear a software crossfeed that remotely compares in quality to the HR crossfeed (I've tried them all). I'm not really sure that it gives you an accurate idea of the suitability of crossfeed for music in general, and is usually only appropriate for movies.

Which software crossfeed implementations have you tried? There are night & day differences between many of them.

Also, what are your preferences when it comes to amount of crossfeed and application?

For me, very subtle crossfeed won't do it on early stereo Beatles albums like "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" because it's still too hard-panned. I need a pretty strong (as in obvious) crossfeed for such hard-panned music, otherwise it greatly detracts from my enjoyment.

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkless Which software crossfeed implementations have you tried? There are night & day differences between many of them. Also, what are your preferences when it comes to amount of crossfeed and application? For me, very subtle crossfeed won't do it on early stereo Beatles albums like "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" because it's still too hard-panned. I need a pretty strong (as in obvious) crossfeed for such hard-panned music, otherwise it greatly detracts from my enjoyment.

My issue with software crossfeed is that it makes something that can be made quite simple extremely complicated. The most interesting implimentations present the user with many variables which they are usually not qualified to vary, usually resulting in a totally inaccurate result which the user often tunes more as an EQ than as a crossfeed. I have done some research into crossfeed, and despite everything I could glean was unable to find the 'correct' settings for my ears - yet somehow, flipping that one switch on the front of my HR amp seems to do the job...

 

[iancraig10]

I use the Meier Audio Cord Cross and Jan's little Porta Corda with crossfeed. The thing that I have found using it is that I often don't hear much difference (except with the Corda Cross - the volume is attenuated slighty)

However, If I turn it off when I think that something is extreme left or right, as soon as I turn it off, it becomes very apparent that the units do help enormously to smooth out the sound for two separate ears.

Funnily enough, the Porta Corda seems more subtle than the Corda Cross and you mostly think that it does absolutely nothing, until a crucial point. Turn it off and you notice.

For my ears, it makes things a great deal more comfortable on those extreme left and right recordings.

Ian

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancraig10 I use the Meier Audio Cord Cross and Jan's little Porta Corda with crossfeed. The thing that I have found using it is that I often don't hear much difference (except with the Corda Cross - the volume is attenuated slighty) However, If I turn it off when I think that something is extreme left or right, as soon as I turn it off, it becomes very apparent that the units do help enormously to smooth out the sound for two separate ears. Funnily enough, the Porta Corda seems more subtle than the Corda Cross and you mostly think that it does absolutely nothing, until a crucial point. Turn it off and you notice. For my ears, it makes things a great deal more comfortable on those extreme left and right recordings. Ian

A good example of a well implimented crossfeed. It should be something that you don't notice until you turn it off, and then think 'where did everything go?'. If you turn it on and suddenly everything changes drastically, it's not working.

 

[iancraig10]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth A good example of a well implimented crossfeed. It should be something that you don't notice until you turn it off, and then think 'where did everything go?'. If you turn it on and suddenly everything changes drastically, it's not working.

That's exactly it ..... I only notice on turn off at crucial parts. Normally, when most sounds are centred, I feel that it does nothing.

Having said that, a plug in for crossfeed that I use with Windown Media Player makes the music sound as though it's coming from a stadium when it's switched in. It is awful and not useable so I use the Porta Corda coming from the computer with its less noticeable crossfeed.

Ian

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancraig10 That's exactly it ..... I only notice on turn off at crucial parts. Normally, when most sounds are centred, I feel that it does nothing.

That's because in the Meier implimentation, it really is doing nothing! He calls it a 'natural crossfeed', which isn't quite a crossfeed in the way I understand it.

 

[iancraig10]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth That's because in the Meier implimentation, it really is doing nothing! He calls it a 'natural crossfeed', which isn't quite a crossfeed in the way I understand it.

It does have an effect on stereo. Do you think that it is better to remove it?

Ian

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancraig10 It does have an effect on stereo. Do you think that it is better to remove it? Ian

Jan has a very nice explanation of exactly what his crossfeed does on his website, which you might want to read. The amount of crossfeed applied varies depending on how far from centre the instrument is panned, with more applied the further away you go and less the nearer you are to the centre. While this does produce a very natural result, it is not reproducing the HTRF that one might experience from a speaker setup. As far as I am concerned, when I talk about crossfeed I am talking about reproducing speaker imaging, not naturalising headphone imaging.

 

[iancraig10]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth it is not reproducing the HTRF that one might experience from a speaker setup. As far as I am concerned, when I talk about crossfeed I am talking about reproducing speaker imaging, not naturalising headphone imaging.

I didn't think that this would be possible on headphones. Is this what you say the HR implemetation does then?

Ian

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iancraig10 I didn't think that this would be possible on headphones. Is this what you say the HR implemetation does then? Ian

This is what the HR implimentation attempts to do. No crossfeed is perfect, and even if it did have a perfect HTRF for your head (which would need to be measured extremely accurately, and then done in the digital domain to avoid distortion), it still wouldn't be correct in that one way we determine the location of a sound is by slightly moving our head from side to side and subconciously noting the change in relationship between the sound coming into each ear. That obviously wouldn't happen with headphones even with a perfect HTRF, so you'd need some kind of sensor that adjusted the positioning of the centre of the two speakers as you moved your head from side to side for a perfect crossfeed.

So, all in all, crossfeed isn't a perfect reproduction of speaker imaging, and the presentation of unadulterated headphones isn't perfect unless the recorded material is binaural. To my ears, with the majority of my classical recordings, HeadRoom Max '06 Modules and a pair of HD-650, crossfeed is more accurate and a lesser evil than the missing acoustical information from standard headphone listening. YMMV, and almost certainly will!