[Target1]

Our discussion thus far that was getting TERRIBLY off topic, but now is on topic. I claim that there are a level of gamers out there (I happen to know one) that are so far beyond the rest of us as to make them "professional gamers." I won't say exactly how we arrived at this point, but I claim that there are gamers out there (Let us take the set of people that play CS for the best teams in the world, and make a living doing it.) who would NEVER use cheap sony street cans in gaming (unless it was just goofing off). Further that these people are in their own league, and that no matter how good some 17 year old in his basement is playing with his cheap sony street cans (because he thinks they are just as good, or just doesn't no any better), the 17 year old just isn't as good as the pro. You can read the last 2 posts from the other thread, and hopefully I we can continue the discussion here and get some more opinions.


Our Discussion thus far


Quote:



Originally Posted by Target1

There is a big difference between a good player, and a player that has the option to go pro. A VERY big difference. Top end gamers are just like professional athletes. There are TONS of fantastic gamers out there, that are amazing when playing in their lan games, and on their favorite server on the net. However, against a true pro that plays several hours each day with team speak, with a team, its another level. You can say that there exists a some 17 year old playing in his basement with his cheap sonys thats better, but that's akin to saying that although Professional tennis players are good there's probably a couple guys around the world that just play for fun with their friends that are better. It just isn't true. Gaming is like a job to people like my friend. They train whether they feel like playing or not. He doesn't play online in regular servers anymore. It just isn't fun. Further, if you have watched some of the webcasts of amazing players and say "it doesn't look that hard," again the tennis analogy comes into play. When you watch a pro tennis match its easy to say "I could hit most of those back." However, when someone serves to you, and the ball is moving at 120 miles per hour good luck. I'm sorry, but whether you agree or not I'm pretty sure that ANYONE out there that has taken the time and put in the 1000's of hours to be at the level my friend is at will NOT be playing with cheap sonys. They will be another dedicated clan member to a top clan in the world that has the option of making a living playing CS.

Mark



Other guy,


Well that's just your OPINION. That is just what you think. Just like you are "pretty sure that ANYONE out there that has taken the time and put in the 1000's of hours to be at the level my friend is at will NOT be playing with cheap sonys. They will be another dedicated clan member to a top clan in the world that has the option of making a living playing CS.", I say that whether you agree or not I'm pretty sure there are amazing players that don't play for a living and can beat players that are at your acquaintance's level using cheap Sonys. There are probably people as good as the Pros that train every day but just have not been recruited by a clan because of different reasons, like for example: maybe they haven't been noticed, maybe people think they are just hacking, maybe they are not interested in being in a clan, etc. Just because a "True Pro", like you call them, plays with a team with team speak doesn't make him better, that only helps him when he's playing with his team. I'm talking about a single player. IMO the best player is the one that goes into any server with a bunch of people that never communicate and does not have pre-planned-team-strategies and still be the best. That "True Pro" that you talk about may be good when playing with his team, but doesn't mean he is the best when he is alone.
Now, about that Tennis player... Well there is no way to really know is there? There could be a non-pro Tennis player that trains every day that's at Pro level, who knows? But it is a LOT LESS likely that there is than a FPS player because of a lot of reasons, like: It's not as easy to get up in the morning and start training in Tennis as in FPS games, It's harder to learn to play Tennis well without a trainer than FPS games (no trainer needed), it's a lot harder to find people to train with in Tennis than in FPS games (especially people that are really good), in Tennis not only do you have to train every day you also have to stay in great physical shape, is a lot harder to get noticed as a great player in FPS games than Tennis (especially when there are hacks all around),etc., etc. The Tennis analogy just doesn't work. Like Ularewolf said: " it's not the sound, it's your determination in games. There can be deaf players that kick ass in CS or other FPS."









New Stuff by me again,

First off you are mistaken if you think there's some local boy that is completely unknown somewhere that could beat any pro, much less the top pros in the world (tennis). Natural talent of that sort just doesn't exist. Tennis, like most sports is bred. You live and breath it and become the best through hard work (though the best in the world have masses of natural talent). Your second mistake is thinking that gaming is any different. You are doing exactly what you have accused me of doing. You are assuming that anyone could be good without 1000's of hours of training. Have you ever played with a pro? I got this guy to play Enemy Territory with some friends and I (I would consider us quite good. If you have ever played ET it has a massive learning curve in learning the maps. I average between 1200 and 1500 xp per campaign. In almost every server I play, this is top). My friend DESTROYED us. We just could not kill him. Once he got down the basic combat differences between ET and CS he was amazing. Its not just the ability to cooridinate and use team speak. He has drilled and practiced and drilled some more until he can do everything with perfection. Time every gernade to detonate exactly when he wants it to. Nearly every shot is a head shot. I can say that most likely the best player you have EVER played against in a public server would be at most a 3 on a 10 point scale next to this type of player. They don't play public servers ever. Find a webcast for the next major CS tournament.

Mark

PS The analogy holds quite well. It isn't easy for a top gamer to find partners to train against. In fact I would say its more difficult than tennis. Or at least the same. Once you hit a certain level you just cant play public servers anymore to get better. Just like you can't go to your local club any more for tennis. You have to find elite clan servers. With Tennis you just find a coach that is better than your last, and pay him. For ET at least you hit a level where public servers are useless, but top guys still laugh at you and refuse to let you in their games. I've been there. Further, its no easier to play CS every morning than it is to train for Tennis. People who are at that Tennis level love it, and generally get up and play because they want to. Same with FPS. Your not giving top level gamers near enough credit for their ability. Go to TWL sometime, and put together a team in one of the ladders there. Now challenge one of the top clans in your game of choice. This will give you a bit of a taste of what I'm talking about. And these guys aren't even pros (though I'm not sure but their may be a couple of pro teams here. Haven't played in about 6 months due to studies).

 

[TooNice]

Personally, I don't doubt that the quality of the headphones/speakers won't make much difference to a great player. I won't make the distinction between the "pro" and "non-pro" since I actually find that irrelevant. I would be surprised if a player is so dependant on sound that switching between a cheap Sony and $200 cans would make that much difference, even when playing other players of the same level.

I wouldn't say its impossible, just unlikely... Different people have varying degree of sensitivity when it comes to the various factor that comes into play. Some people are more affected by high ping than others (personally, I am particularly tolerant because I used to play on US servers, from the UK, before I had broadband). Ditto for frame rates (some are happy with 40 FPS, others no less than 60 FPS, yet others would do no less than the maximum they can squeeze out of their system even though its over 100 FPS).

But for most part, I reckon that those who are so sensitive to sound that their skill varies greatly between cheap/expensive headphones would be a minority. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if most hardcore players (pro or not) would want the best for their gaming experience simply because its more pleasant, not because it would significantly affect their games. And I must say, going back to the original thread, I don't know of any players using 5.1 surround phones either.

Not sure whether this belongs here or the original thread

 

[zChan]

Ooo. Fellow ET Player. . . v54
um thats it..

 

[SumB]

If you've ever attended or looked at pictures of CPL or equivalent professional gaming events, you'd see that low quality headphones such as the Sony Street Styles are by far the most popular with competitors. I would wager these players would kick your friend's butt too.

The quality of the transducers has no effect on a persons gaming ability IMO. Even the cheapest throw away types have sufficient stereo separation and imaging so as not to be a hindrance.

 

[Target1]

My friend, in case you didn't read the other thread, is one of the top ranked players in Turkey. He effectively plays for the national team there, though I'm not sure what it is called. He is personally invited to major tournaments around the world. I actually wish he was more of a friend, but we are really aquaintences. I'm not saying good cans are necessary, or that they make a player, but when you are that good, and that dedicated you have good cans. Just to use teamspeak you need a good headset, and you don't play for the top clans without a really good headset because they won't let you.

Mark

 

[MakubexGB]

Terget... I rest my case. You're not even reading what I said. I never said a player that has not spent 1000+ hours playing can or can't beat a pro nor I said anything about natural talent.

 

[chia-pet]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumB If you've ever attended or looked at pictures of CPL or equivalent professional gaming events, you'd see that low quality headphones such as the Sony Street Styles are by far the most popular with competitors. I would wager these players would kick your friend's butt too.

the cpl isn't really the defining standard for being professional, bc really anyone can go qualify for the cpl and play. some pretty damning empirical evidence though is most of the top cs teams using high quality headphone equipment. and also, it's these very top teams that are usually regarded as the professionals: teams that can sustain themselves financially purely from gaming. amateurs attending cpl and winning $100 is hardly worthy of the title of professional.

 

[Reck45]

edit nm not getting involved.

 

[mattpwill]

How many top gamers have tried all the possibilities of getting sound, from HRTF (which most have probably tried) to all the different makes of surround sound headphone (which probably almost nobody has done)?

IMO, for games specifically HRTF or plain stereo with headphones is the best way to go. I think that surround sound headphones are best suited to movies. The reason is that with HRTF, the sound can be placed literally anywhere around your head, but with the surround headphones there are a few specific positions that can be made.

HRTF has a potentially better future for all-round, but I'm unhappy with the current performance.

Surround sound headphones, IMO (I always go by theory) are only suitable for a source which uses that few source points eg DD5.1. In theory HRTF could do this just as well if not better than surround headphones, but from experience with different algorithms eg Dolby Headphone et al, they lose sound quality by trying to push the fronts forward, and I'd choose surround headphones for this purpose

Please do buy the surround headphones, because I believe that they will hopefully sound very good for games too if you use an Audigy with the modded drivers, and please be sure to report back

Matt

 

[majjack]

on this topic of gaming and the type of headphones they use. well for professional gaming most of these gamers ( the ones I've seen and played with) most of them don't care about the type of headphone which they are using. It wont make much a difference since games like (counterstrike and painkiller) are based more on accuracy and skill. Though sound does help it wont make much a difference. also from personal experience if you want to go pro in gaming it will take alot of dedication and practice for even Fatal1ty admits he wouldn't have been able to do what he did with out practicing 8 hours and day(sometimes for 2 weeks before tournys).. They are atheleates too and I hope in the future we can see the media start to, show them a bit more support then what they are getting today *end rant..


-majjacK

 

[mattpwill]

I don't think that "athletes" is the approriate word

Athlete - A person possessing the natural or acquired traits, such as strength, agility, and endurance, that are necessary for physical exercise or sports, especially those performed in competitive contexts.

Hmm, a few mismatches lol. My brother must be in the top 1-2% in the world with Medal Of Honor, and he uses a crappy Creative headset

 

[Ularewolf]

Like I said before, you can be deaf and still be a great player. Yes, it's nice to hear where bullets are coming from, well kinda anyways. But it doesn't matter if he had $2 dollar headphones or $200. If you're good, you're good no matter what. Precise aiming and reflexes is what makes a pro FPS player. Sound has only about 1% change, if that. And, just like mattpwill said, they're not athletes. Athletes are when they're in good physical shape. Not saying every game player is out of shape, but 99% are.

 

[eastside504]

CS was my favorite game for over two years. I played against/with some CAL-I players and a few of my former clan member became cal-i (c9-enemy down: nexus, icecream and JohnnyGM, ExS-yeung). These guys dont use expensive headphones, and when they play in a pub they dominate. Sound is very important in CS however any headphone that has good spartial seperation will do. Expensive headphones are not a must for CS, only practice and teamwork will get you better.

 

[Aman]

I am a strong believer that to a degree it's a skill-based game.

However, when it becomes so close that you only beat the opponent by a few seconds or a few measely points, I think the gear makes a difference.

The amount of energy you have, the mousepad, the mouse, the keyboard, the monitor, the hardware, and, of course, the headphones.

 

[blip]

Better headphones do help for positioning, but they are never going to equalize the playing field between a good player, a great player, and a pro.

For CS I'd say that more important is the mic you use (assuming you are using voice communications).

As for the athlete thing. I think it is a silly distinction to make. If they want to be called athletes then I say we should let them, they are fairly similar if arguably not quite the same.

I mean, when you get down to it, they need most of the same things an athlete needs: natural reflexes, stamina, good vision, dedication to training, spatial reasoning, team building skills etc. As I understand it, they even need to stay in pretty good shape to really compete. (Could be wrong on that, but I've heard it from a few people.)