[xromanticistx]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but here goes:

I'm purchasing Pro Tools in the near future, and I'm curious what hardware I need. I notice on www.m-audio.com there is a list of compatible hardware, but I don't know which one is suitable for me.

I want to be able to hook a keyboard up to my computer for direct use with pro tools. I also want to record vocals.

I would be purchasing a keyboard specifically for this.

In your opinion, what hardware / keyboard would be most suitable for my use?

My purpose is to create songs with beats with classical touches (such as piano and violin) and vocals as well.

Thanks

 

[Joeywhat]

ANY keyboard with either MIDI or USB connects will work. If you do not have a sound card/interface with MIDI, get a MIDI interface. You can get simple ones for around $10-20, or elaborate ones for $100+, that can connect 8 or more devices.

As for audio hardware, Pro Tools will only allow you to use M-Audio or Digidesign products. The type of interface required depends on what it will be used for. The new 003 rack/factory is now out, and it's quite good. You can probably pick up an 002 for pretty cheap now as well. The new 003 has MIDI built in, I'm not sure about the 002.

The M-Audio Keystation line of controllers are decent. They are relatively cheap and do their job. A cheap interface would be the M-Box. If you only need one or two inputs at once, that might be more what you need.

 

[xromanticistx]

Since I'm just getting into this, I was thinking this would be a good place to start?

It has a midi controller built-in.

Would I need an M-Box in addition to it? Or is it an alternative?

If so, would the M-Box give more effects/sounds/control?

(basically.. what does the m-box do?! haha)

Thanks so much!!

P.S. what is available for recording vocals?

 

[Joeywhat]

The M-Audio keyboard you listed is only a midi controller. It has no internal sounds of it's own. It's pretty much useless unless hooked up to a synth or DAW program (like Pro Tools). I have the 61 key version, it's pretty good.

THe M-Box is purely an interface. It takes the incoming audio signals from mics/other sources and puts them into pro tools. It offers no additional procesing in the form of effects or anything of that sort. For that you'll need plugins. Pro Tools will come with some plug ins. IIRC, you won't get anything special with M powered or LE.

And what do you mean by what is available for recording vocals? DO you need mics? The keystation will take care of recording MIDI (assuming you have a program with some soft synths, as pro tools contains no synthesizers of it's own), and the mbox will take care of audio.

 

[Joeywhat]

If you need mics, go to guitar center and pick up the M-Audio package for $99. It includes an MXL 990, MXL 991, and a pre amp. None if it is great by any means, but for the price I don't think it can be beat. I've used both mics extensively, but haven't tried the pre.

The 990 is very well suited for vocals, and the 991 is good for instruments. They are condenser mics, so they will need phantom power.

 

[Pearlworld]

For endless possibilities, and the most expandable setup, i'd go:
- midi interface
- Midi controller aka keyboard, if uve got $$ u can pick up a second hand synth which'll have a midi out
-Ableton live and Cubase / Fruityloops, which you can use to produce / sequence, and have digital synths (that you might have to pay like 5$ for)

So uve got a a keyboard plugged into ur computer through a midi interface, then the keyboard is connected to some Software, which is where u can tweak the sounds, (enveloppes, LFO, effects, wave styles, infinite variataty).
This'll give you all the possibilities a good synth will give you, might be a tad less pratical, but u have more options with hundreds of software-synths to chose from for limited prices, infinite samples on the net, and easier to sequence ur music ( u can use the same program to write ur keyboard lines / chord progressions, create beats (from individual drum samples), then sequence the whole thing.)

If ur more into some beats, i can suggest Beat-Creator which u should be able to find for free (not sure about the legality of that) or for a couple bucks, which will let u chop up drum samples, harvest ur own samples from music, and cut up vocal work.
Its late, hope this made sense, PM me if u need any extra help, goodluck

 

[Tantra]

The Digidesign Mbox 2 would be a decent start. It includes the Pro Tools LE and some nice software and plug-ins.

 

[xromanticistx]

Hm.. So.. The only way for me to hook up a MIDI controller / Keyboard is through a MIDI interface? I find it hard to believe that the M-Box2 merely connects the midi controller / kb to my computer with no effects.. unless I misinterpreted what you guys said, which is very possible haha.

I do use Fruity Loops, and the general consensus seems to be that if I go the Pro Tools route I'd have to drop some heavy cash for it to really be worth it.

Do any of you have specific suggestions for the following components?:

Equipment for recording vocals (mic/preamp/whatever is needed)

A keyboard

A way to hook up the keyboard (midi interface I s'pose)


I'll be using Fruity Loops Producer Edition for now.

Are there any cheap(ish) keyboards that have a decent amount of built-in sounds that I can edit in FruityLoops?

Thanks for all your help guys, you have no idea how much I appreciate it =)

 

[Joeywhat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xromanticistx /img/forum/go_quote.gif Hm.. So.. The only way for me to hook up a MIDI controller / Keyboard is through a MIDI interface? I find it hard to believe that the M-Box2 merely connects the midi controller / kb to my computer with no effects.. unless I misinterpreted what you guys said, which is very possible haha. I do use Fruity Loops, and the general consensus seems to be that if I go the Pro Tools route I'd have to drop some heavy cash for it to really be worth it. Do any of you have specific suggestions for the following components?: Equipment for recording vocals (mic/preamp/whatever is needed) A keyboard A way to hook up the keyboard (midi interface I s'pose) I'll be using Fruity Loops Producer Edition for now. Are there any cheap(ish) keyboards that have a decent amount of built-in sounds that I can edit in FruityLoops? Thanks for all your help guys, you have no idea how much I appreciate it =)

If you're on a budget, stay FAR away from Pro Tools. With other DAW programs you can use ANY audio interface you wish, not just digi or m-audio products. That is why I prefer Sonar 6/7.

This is what you need:

-MIDI Keyboard, or a controller. They are two different things. A keyboard can play sounds (from here on I will call it a synth). Controllers contain no sounds, they trigger sounds on another instrument/computer. Controllers are MUCH cheaper then synths, and are more versatile since they work with literally any device that has a MIDI in port, or a computer.

-The M-Audio package I listed earlier is great for beginners. $100 gets you two mics (one is great for vocals, other for instruments) AND a pre amp, should you not have one. It's not the greatest gear, but for the price it's damn fine.

-Hooking up the "keyboard" depends on what you get. If using a controller, most now have USB connections, thus eliminating the need for an interface. Should it not have one, a MIDI interface is what's needed. There are also MIDI -> USB cables out there, which are essentially a cheap interface for only one controller. If you pick a synth, you may not even need MIDI. You can just connect it to the audio interface via instrument cables. You would also connect the MIDI cable if you wanted to record the synth as a MIDI file, and not as digital audio.

IMO, get a controller and some good soft synths. They sound great, and the possibilities are endless. When buying a synth, you are (somewhat) limited to the sound you can get. With synths it's much harder to edit and save sounds, although it certainly can be done. If you really want a hardware synth, get a sound module (which is a synth minus the keyboard) which will house hundreds (if not thousands) of sounds to use, and can be rack mounted. This makes running cables much easier. It also makes more sense to spend $100 ona bunch of great soft synths and another hundo on a controller then at least $500 for a decent synthesizer.

Also, a MIDI interface (or direct connection via USB) will offer NO "sound effects" for the MIDI voices. The only "real" way to add effects is to record the MIDI data into digital audio once you are done sequencing. Once in the digital domain, you can add effects via plugins, just as you would any other audio track. The only time I ever add effects to MIDI is when the project is staying as MIDI (which is VERY rare). If you produce a great song with lots of MIDI using some great soft synths, and someone else plays back that file on their computer, it will sound NOTHING like what yu were hearing. This is because MIDI is played back using the "general MIDI" set of sounds on the sound card. This is a standard set of instruments that each have a dedicated number (1 is piano, 2 is guitar, etc.). So if you set channel 2 as a trance hit, to everyone else it will sound like a guitar (and a crappy one, depending on the sounds the user has).

That is why you typically record everything to digital audio once you are done.

 

[Joeywhat]

Also, is there any reason you are dedicated to having a synthesizer (i.e. a keyboard that can produce it's own sounds)? Perhaps I am just missing something that you would need that for.

I ask because for most purposes, a keyboard controller will suffice. Especially for those on a budget. You can get a 61 key keyboard for around $150, and if you're creative enough, you can get the soft synths for free...*cough*cough*.

I think you are also a little confused about how to take an idea in your head and turn it into something professional. When you are creating with MIDI, it only stays as MIDI for half it's journey (from your head to CD). First you take your keyboard and find the sounds you like for each track. I typically use soft synths. There are tons out there, many DAW programs have some included. You find the right instrument and settings so it sounds just the way you want it. Then you start sequencing. This means you are recording MIDI data (note there is NO digital audio being recorded at this time) to your hard disk. When the data is played back, it is triggering the sounds from your synths, which are being outputted through the sound card or audio interface. Once the ENTIRE song is complete in terms of getting the notes recorded, you are done with MIDI.

Now you will record each MIDI track to it's own audio track, thus creating a digital audio file of what was being outputted before. When you have the digital audio, you can start adding plugins like EQ, compression, phasers, delay, all that good stuff. This is also when you can start playing around with levels and automation and reverb and all that other good stuff.

I hope that clears things up a little bit, and explains why there should not be any effects included with a MIDI interface or anything of the sort.

If I hadn't already mentioned, the M-Audio Keystation line of keyboards is good. Pretty cheap, they do their job...both MIDI and USB connections. Features a signal fader and octave buttons. I like it.

 

[xromanticistx]

The process you describe (recording in midi format with all notes - > then converting to digi audio) I am not familiar with. In Fruity Loops, I plan out the notes on the individual soft synths (in piano roll), then arrange them in the playlist and mix them. I've also even begun creating my own samples.. I've only had Fruity loops for two days lol but have been using it non-stop =P.

How would I know if a certain midi controller is compatible with Fruity Loops? Does Fruity Loops have a feature where you can record notes through the MIDI controller, then place them in the different synths accordingly? (that would rock lol)

I'll definitely be picking up that mic deal, sounds great =).

 

[Joeywhat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xromanticistx /img/forum/go_quote.gif How would I know if a certain midi controller is compatible with Fruity Loops? Does Fruity Loops have a feature where you can record notes through the MIDI controller, then place them in the different synths accordingly? (that would rock lol)

OK...I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this, but I think I understand...I'll try and go through the sequencing process for MIDI from the start. I won't include any specifics as to how to set the track I/O or anything, as I've never used FL.

First, Record your drums (you don't have to do this first, but I do, it's an example). Select which ever MIDI track you have available (lets say track one). You will have already had the MIDI controller hooked up, and it will be all ready to go (more on that later). You should set the input to "omni", which means anything on any channel will trigger the sound (only one MIDI controller, so it's safe to set it that way). The output should be whichever synth you choose, presumably a drum machine. A popular drum machine is called "Battery". Lets say you're using this. You open up that synth, and make sure it's set as the output. This means when you press a key on the controller, the MIDI data is sent into the computer, to the drum machine where it interprets that data as "play note c4". c4 is mapped to be the kick drum, so it plays the kick drum sound, which is sent to the output of your audio interface. You hear the sound, people rejoice.

The process is the same for all the other tracks you need. Set the correct I/O, open up the snyth and edit the sound so it's to your liking. Now the fun part. Now you record the MIDI data to the hard disk. This shows up as bars when viewing the piano roll. Lets say you've recorded all the tracks. Now you can go in and edit the position of those bars, which will change the pitch and timing of all the notes. It's certainly easier to do this while still dealing with MIDI, then if it were digital audio. SO you have all the tracks recorded as MIDI, and it's all sounding just peachy in terms of correct notes and timings. Note that when you hit the play button in FL, the sound you hear is still coming from the soft synths. It's basically like you have a musician playing each one of those synths live, no actually sound is recorded.

So you're ready to deal with digital audio now. First you will mute all but one of the MIDI tracks (say it's the drum track again). You will now create an audio track, and set the input of that track to the output of the soft synth you want to record. So if the soft synth is outputting it's sound via output 1 of the audio interface, set that as your input. Output should be the main out of the interface. Now play back the drum track alone to set a level for recording. Adjust the level of the MIDI track so that it peaks at no more then 90%. You don't have to play the whole song to find out exactly where the peak is, just make sure it doesn't clip.

So you're all set to go, now all you have to do is record enable the audio track, make sure the MIDI track being recorded is the ONLY track that can be heard (i.e. the others are muted), and cue up to where you want to start. Then just hit the record button. The MIDI data will tell the soft synth to play whichever notes you recorded. It will output digital audio directly to the track you're recording. When it's done, you have a brand new digital audio file ready to be processed. Repeat for all the other MIDI tracks. Make sure that each MIDI track gets it's own audio track. It's technically best that each drum instrument (like the kick, snare, hi hat, etc) get it's own track. If you don't want to take the time to do that it's alright, although it will sound better.

So, you've recorded all the MIDI tracks to audio. Now you can mute all the MIDI tracks as they do not need to be used anymore. You can also disable all the soft synths as they are also not being used. When you play the song you are now hearing the audio coming straight from your hard disk, and not from the instruments. Disabling the synths will leave for more processing power for the plugins.

At this point, I think you know what to do. Start adding equalization, reverb, effects...whatever you want. You can also now mess around with levels and do automation.

So, to answer you original question minus the novella, yes, you can record notes to the different synths. By "placing the notes in the synth" you are recording notes to a specific track. Only the notes for one particular synth will be on that track, so they all more or less belong to that synth. From what you said, it seems that you have the process a little backwards. Instead of recording whatever you have then placing all the notes into the synth of your choice, you will set up the synth before any recording takes place, then record directly onto that specific track.

 

[Joeywhat]

Quote:

Originally Posted by xromanticistx /img/forum/go_quote.gif How would I know if a certain midi controller is compatible with Fruity Loops? Does Fruity Loops have a feature where you can record notes through the MIDI controller, then place them in the different synths accordingly? (that would rock lol)

I forgot to mention, no it does not matter which controller you use. MIDI is a universal standard. Any product, from any manufacturer that uses MIDI is completely compatible with any other device that uses MIDI.

 

[xromanticistx]

Alright, so I was also thinking I wanted to create samples with my Gibson SG + amp.. would I need a separate midi interface for that? If so, which would be the best for the $?

Reason I'm doing this is because I can't find any decent electric guitar samples.. and it's very difficult slicing up the individual notes without killing the quality.

Also, I'm not really sure if I have it backwards or not. What I do is I create a series of notes until I like the sound of it (using a random sample) then apply the sample I feel works best for it.

Is using MIDI kind of like that, except you are using no sample -- neutral sound?

 

[Joeywhat]

Well, MIDI can trigger a lot of things. It can trigger a sample, and many synths use samples as the basis for their sound. Other synths use oscillators mainly. I'm not sure what you mean by neutral sound. You can use the MIDI data to trigger any type of digital audio, be it through samples, oscillators, or anything else, really.

As for creating samples with your guitar, that is not what MIDI does. MIDI is PURELY data. It is literally a long stream of 1's and 0's that must be interpreted by a computer of some sort. The computer then sends that data to the synthesizer, and tells it what tones to play and how long. For creating samples with your guitar you would either plug directly into the audio interface, or use a mic to record from your amp. Record that as a digital audio file, then cut/edit/process it to your desire. That note can then be mapped to a MIDI controller and played back. There are a number of synths that allow you to import your own wave samples. You can also use a plain old sampler with a MIDI controller.

Electric guitar is VERY hard to replicate via MIDI. When you think about it, playing a guitar is much different then a piano. THe notes are hit at the same time, like with a piano. Plus the chord structures are different. This means that when recording guitar sounds with a piano, different techniques must be used. Sampling is a good way of getting better sounding files, but it won't solve the problem of it sounding unnatural. I would suggest just playing the guitar yourself (sans controller), unless whatever idea you had in mind calls for something that cannot be replicated on a guitar.

And for you doing it "backwards", you can structure your session however you like, as that's how you will work the best. I was referring purely to how you recorded the MIDI data without having an instrument picked out, then basically drag and dropped it all into whichever instrument you found the most fitting. It's not necessarily wrong, just a bass-ackwards way of doing things.

When I'm first starting a new song (as in I only have a few ideas for it) I start by creating a track and inserting a soft synth on it. I then pick out a few presets that I think would fit. I then fool around on the keyboard for a while playing some of the ideas I had. I try and find the preset that best fits what I want. Then I go in a tweak it a bit so it's almost where it needs to be. Then I start recording that track. I usually get through 20-50 measures at this point, pretty much just an intro, chorus, maybe verse. Then I move on to the next instrument. That works best for me since that's how I think. I work in chunks, so the first 30 seconds of the song is very well structured before I move on. You can do it anyway you like.

So to recap about MIDI:

-It's not digital audio
-It's purely data (1's and 0's)
-It can trigger any number of actions, such as triggering a sample, or an oscillator, or a filter on a synth.
-When recording MIDI data, the sound you hear is not the MIDI itself, but rather what the MIDI is telling the instruments to play. The data can be thought of as musicians. By themselves, the musicians cannot play any music. They know the music, and where all the notes need to be played, the correct pitch and volume, but they have no instruments. Give them instruments (the synths), and suddenly you have something.

So remember that in terms of your creative process, there is no backwards. You can do everything in whichever order you like. What you should do, however, is try and experiment with how you do things. You might find that other ways are better for your creative process. And it all depends on how you get your ideas. I know that I get mine in the form of either chord progressions or drum beats. Usually progressions...and what I'll do is just play the progressions through a bunch of different synths and settings and find what I like best, but I don't record yet. Sometimes I find that a different synth sounds great, and I'll make a mistake somewhere and find that making one chord minor and adding in another makes it sound so much better. Had I recorded it I might not have found the better progression.

But that's just an example. You do whatever is easiest for you.

What I suggest you do is read up a bit on MIDI, digital audio, and the digital domain. I can suggest a few good books for you if you wish, although just going to the book store will yield similar results. There's not a ton of books out there. In fact, I do believe there are books that deal directly with FL. Just pick up something that is an overview of digital audio, for instance. If you can, take some classes for it. That's how I learned everything. I managed to learn most the ins and outs of recording (both MIDI and digital audio) in only 2 years, so it's certainly not a hard process.

I will most certainly help you out more if you'd like, although I'm not a teacher by any means. I may know the material, but getting people to understand it is not my strong point.