[PanzerIV]

Hello! I have a question which for some reason the answer appears to be extremely hard to find and I can hardly believe that I'd be the only person wondering this... I have a (Fiio X5 III and II) which is ALREADY suppose to have a very good DAC inside as it's in the main reason to buy such device as otherwise I would be using any cellphone with crappy internal rather than a real DAP.

Since I'm suppose to have a high-end DAC already in the X5, I bought a while ago a (Fiio A5) to replace the (E12) I had. I haven't noticed a sound quality difference between both version of X5 but I did between the E12 and A5. I would have a hard time believing the amplifier section from the (Fiio Q5) would be any better than the A5 if the whole unit is about the same size, yet they had to use more space for the battery and also to fit a DAC somewhere inside of it.

Question #1: A) Therefore the logic would be that the only reason you'd be paying twice more for the Q5 would be for the DAC rather than a "better amp" and since I use a X5 III rather than a cellphone to listen at music, using the DAC from the Q5 instead of the one from the X5 would be like changing 4x25¢ for 1$ right? B) Also, is there actually an easily noticeable SQ difference of using an even better DAC if you mostly listen to 16bit 44Khz 320 MP3 and sometime to Flac? I find there is a much bigger difference into good versus bad recording at the studio, than the amount of bitrate a file can have.

Question #2: I'm trying to find an even better portable amp than the A5 with a major improvement so I don't feel like throwing money out the window by paying twice more for a slight improvement. I now have the (Audeze LCD3) and they recommended me something that can push 500mW at 110Ohm which according to my searches, doesn't even seem to exist at all if you look into pocket sized amp. Yet, even in a bigger "portable" device such as the (Woo WA8) that cost as much as my (Woo WA6-SE), it is still very far from outputting such power so What with Audeze recommending that much power? Is it really necessary or even at 200mW @110Ohm I can still get 85-90% of my headphone potential? Here's below the specs of the Fiio A5 for example. I've checked also the 3 amp the VP of sales from Audeze suggested (Sony PHA-3, Sony PHA-2, Chord Mojo & Hugo 2) yet none of them has rating anywhere close to their suggested 500mW.
＞800 mW (32 Ω/THD＜1%)
≥ 150mW（300Ω/THD＜1%）

Question #3: That whole rating about the amount of mW an amplifier can push, what is it all about exactly? Is it only the volume output, how loud it can play or an amp with a higher mW is usually always gonna sound better at the same dB because it will pack more punch in the bass and have more detailed highs? I'm wondering cause maybe Audeze is making me waste time and money finding a unicorn when I ain't really gonna notice much of a difference if any. However I can clearly say there is a major difference between my tiny portable A5 and the huge & heavy Woo tube amplifier on my desk and I don't think that it's only cause it can output much more wattage.

Thanks in advance for the help guys.

 

[myusernameislove]

Cloud Nine, 1.28W into 32 ohm, 1W into 50 ohm, 250mW into 300 ohm, 120mW into 600 ohm

 

[quisxx]

Ifi micro idsd.

 

[gemNeye]

Hello! I have a question which for some reason the answer appears to be extremely hard to find and I can hardly believe that I'd be the only person wondering this... I have a (Fiio X5 III and II) which is ALREADY suppose to have a very good DAC inside as it's in the main reason to buy such device as otherwise I would be using any cellphone with crappy internal rather than a real DAP.

Since I'm suppose to have a high-end DAC already in the X5, I bought a while ago a (Fiio A5) to replace the (E12) I had. I haven't noticed a sound quality difference between both version of X5 but I did between the E12 and A5. I would have a hard time believing the amplifier section from the (Fiio Q5) would be any better than the A5 if the whole unit is about the same size, yet they had to use more space for the battery and also to fit a DAC somewhere inside of it.

Question #1: A) Therefore the logic would be that the only reason you'd be paying twice more for the Q5 would be for the DAC rather than a "better amp" and since I use a X5 III rather than a cellphone to listen at music, using the DAC from the Q5 instead of the one from the X5 would be like changing 4x25¢ for 1$ right? B) Also, is there actually an easily noticeable SQ difference of using an even better DAC if you mostly listen to 16bit 44Khz 320 MP3 and sometime to Flac? I find there is a much bigger difference into good versus bad recording at the studio, than the amount of bitrate a file can have.

Question #2: I'm trying to find an even better portable amp than the A5 with a major improvement so I don't feel like throwing money out the window by paying twice more for a slight improvement. I now have the (Audeze LCD3) and they recommended me something that can push 500mW at 110Ohm which according to my searches, doesn't even seem to exist at all if you look into pocket sized amp. Yet, even in a bigger "portable" device such as the (Woo WA8) that cost as much as my (Woo WA6-SE), it is still very far from outputting such power so What with Audeze recommending that much power? Is it really necessary or even at 200mW @110Ohm I can still get 85-90% of my headphone potential? Here's below the specs of the Fiio A5 for example. I've checked also the 3 amp the VP of sales from Audeze suggested (Sony PHA-3, Sony PHA-2, Chord Mojo & Hugo 2) yet none of them has rating anywhere close to their suggested 500mW.
＞800 mW (32 Ω/THD＜1%)
≥ 150mW（300Ω/THD＜1%）

Question #3: That whole rating about the amount of mW an amplifier can push, what is it all about exactly? Is it only the volume output, how loud it can play or an amp with a higher mW is usually always gonna sound better at the same dB because it will pack more punch in the bass and have more detailed highs? I'm wondering cause maybe Audeze is making me waste time and money finding a unicorn when I ain't really gonna notice much of a difference if any. However I can clearly say there is a major difference between my tiny portable A5 and the huge & heavy Woo tube amplifier on my desk and I don't think that it's only cause it can output much more wattage.

Thanks in advance for the help guys.

This question might be better suited for the Help and Recommendations section: https://www.head-fi.org/forums/introductions-help-and-recommendations.7840/

@ProtegeManiac and/or @PurpleAngel could likely answer your inquiries in a more coherent manner than I could. They're usually hanging around in the above mentioned section I linked above.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

This question might be better suited for the Help and Recommendations section: https://www.head-fi.org/forums/introductions-help-and-recommendations.7840/

@ProtegeManiac and/or @PurpleAngel could likely answer your inquiries in a more coherent manner than I could. They're usually hanging around in the above mentioned section I linked above.

Hello! I have a question which for some reason the answer appears to be extremely hard to find and I can hardly believe that I'd be the only person wondering this... I have a (Fiio X5 III and II) which is ALREADY suppose to have a very good DAC inside as it's in the main reason to buy such device as otherwise I would be using any cellphone with crappy internal rather than a real DAP.

Since I'm suppose to have a high-end DAC already in the X5, I bought a while ago a (Fiio A5) to replace the (E12) I had. I haven't noticed a sound quality difference between both version of X5 but I did between the E12 and A5. I would have a hard time believing the amplifier section from the (Fiio Q5) would be any better than the A5 if the whole unit is about the same size, yet they had to use more space for the battery and also to fit a DAC somewhere inside of it.

That depends. Some larger amps measure worse and have less power than an O2 the same way a turbocharged 2.5L BMW engine can have a flatter torque curve without much turbo lag and still have more horsepower than, say, an American SUV with a 6.0L central cam V8. It all depends on the circuit the same way you can put newer virtually zero lag turbos (and a fast responding A/T with manual override) to run smoother than a huge engine relying on displcement making torque.

In your particular comparison the A5 has 800mW, 0.002% THD+N while the Q5 has 240mW, 0.001% THD+N. That's basically having over 3X the power for double the distortion...which at those levels wouldn't be audible back to back unless their distortion types are drastically different.

Question #1: A) Therefore the logic would be that the only reason you'd be paying twice more for the Q5 would be for the DAC rather than a "better amp" and since I use a X5 III rather than a cellphone to listen at music, using the DAC from the Q5 instead of the one from the X5 would be like changing 4x25¢ for 1$ right?

I don't think Fiio is even marketing the amp of the Q5 as better. They're only marketing it as a DAC-HPamp with wireless input and compatibility with iOS and Android.

B) Also, is there actually an easily noticeable SQ difference of using an even better DAC if you mostly listen to 16bit 44Khz 320 MP3 and sometime to Flac? I find there is a much bigger difference into good versus bad recording at the studio, than the amount of bitrate a file can have.

Depends on the genre, very generally, but more specifically if the track has enough information in the frequency ranges most affected by MP3 compression. Metal would sound more different in FLAC vs MP3 than an audiophile vocal track with just a guitar and a bongo for accompaniment.

Question #2: I'm trying to find an even better portable amp than the A5 with a major improvement so I don't feel like throwing money out the window by paying twice more for a slight improvement.

You're already at the point of diminishing returns on portable amplifiers. You're going to have to either spend more on something like an RSA Intruder. Or if you want to maintain cost efficiency, get a desktop amp where without battery life nor a restrictive case being a concern, just a little more gets you a really good, really powerful Class A amplifier like the Asgard.

I now have the (Audeze LCD3) and they recommended me something that can push 500mW at 110Ohm which according to my searches, doesn't even seem to exist at all if you look into pocket sized amp. Yet, even in a bigger "portable" device such as the (Woo WA8) that cost as much as my (Woo WA6-SE), it is still very far from outputting such power so What with Audeze recommending that much power? Is it really necessary or even at 200mW @110Ohm I can still get 85-90% of my headphone potential? Here's below the specs of the Fiio A5 for example. I've checked also the 3 amp the VP of sales from Audeze suggested (Sony PHA-3, Sony PHA-2, Chord Mojo & Hugo 2) yet none of them has rating anywhere close to their suggested 500mW.
＞800 mW (32 Ω/THD＜1%)
≥ 150mW（300Ω/THD＜1%）

First, is Audeze even recommending that you get that kind of power from a portable amplifier running off a battery? Because the fact that they made the LCD-3 an open back headphone that people who aren't Brock Lesnar always complain about because of its weight already suggests to me that they're thinking "high back chair, at home, close doors and windows, tell kids to sleep or feed the cat to shut him up for a couple of hours, drive with amp plugged into wall power until the cat wakes up to run around the house at 4am." They're probably only dishing out portable amp examples because you only wanted portables, the same way that if I adamantly demanded that I be recommended a laptop that can run for example Total War: Three Kingdoms, I'm going to get a desktop replacement that costs more than a desktop with the same components and sounds like a hair dryer by comparison to such a desktop.

Second, "requirement" and "recommendation" are two different things. Think of it in video game terms. Ubisoft, EA, Creative Assembly, etc can tell you that the base requirements are "Core i3 processor, 4gb RAM, GTX 750," but that only means you can launch the game and when you actually run it you end up with dips down to 1fps and you'd be lucky to get 30fps average...or drop everything down to the point that it looks like the a PS1 game running on an Android. Recommended would be along the lines of "Core i5/Ryzen hexacore, 8gb RAM, GTX 1070," and you might be able to sustain dips no lower than 30fps with an average of 65fps on Ultra graphics settings, but when you enter lulls in the game, you notice how loud the fans have been during the intense sections. If anything, at least with games you get solid numbers to know that "i7 9700K at 5.1ghz sustained clock on motherboard with 10-phase VRM and on water with full cover monoblock (custom loop), 16gb RAM, RTX 2080Ti at 2050mhz sustained clock speed on water (custom loop)" can do 100fps average, no dips below 60fps, with only sustained 30dB system noise with RTX On. Past actual output levels and obviously bad distortion, comparing two good amps is like arguing whether one HD display looks that much better with 8x MSAA vs 4x MSAA or if you can actually shoot faster and more accurately on a 240hz display vs a 120hz display.

Third, and that's where the last sentence above comes in, is how well you can notice the difference. Assuming same distortion type, there's the question of how much distortion percentage is audible even on back to back listening. At teh same time, how loud will you actually listen? Note that this isn't a simple argument against having a lot of power either since gain makes guesstimates based on sensitivity and power an inaccurate tool for how loud you would actually be listening and how hard you're pushing an amp.

In any case the bigger question really is why you want to use a portable amp to drive a heavy headphone that basically is not designed to try to acoustically isolate itself from the environment within which it operates.

Question #3: That whole rating about the amount of mW an amplifier can push, what is it all about exactly? Is it only the volume output, how loud it can play or an amp with a higher mW is usually always gonna sound better at the same dB because it will pack more punch in the bass and have more detailed highs?

W or mW = horsepower
Gain = transmission gear ratios, aerodynamics, other road conditions
dB output = actual kph
THD+N and damping factor = handling (think of a very powerful subwoofer amp with 10% distortion at 1000hz as an NHRA "funny" car and something like a dual mono OTL tube amp as a 4.0L V12 driving a lightweight Italian two seater)

In other words, more power means it can theoretically go louder, but how much louder will depend on gain on the material being played, the input signal to the amp, and the amp's gain, the same way that crosswinds at a circular track or trying to measure the top speed at a track that ends somewhere instead of going around in circles will make problems for finding out what the hell the car can really do, McLaren F1 or not. And then there's distortion - no point in having 1000watts if it's going to distort badly at that level you wouldn't even crank it up. In most cases though good amps don't, so people crank them up, since the gains from playing louder to make the low end more audible is outweighed by what THD+N is getting slowly piled on. Having a lot of reserve power also means being able to dish out dynamic bass notes...assuming they're recorded in such a way as to just pop out from the average, which is a problem when you have dynamic compression on modern recordings.

I'm wondering cause maybe Audeze is making me waste time and money finding a unicorn when I ain't really gonna notice much of a difference if any.

That depends. They might wager you'll find an amp that has the distortion pattern that you like even if it has less power (as long as it's enough power to get loud enough for you) than return the LCD-3 within the period that you can return it, or have to sell it when you go past that and give up on the amp. You might as well detail exactly what you don't like about the sound and chances are what you need is a different headphone.

Whether it's outright response or more audible but different and preferable (to you) levels of amp distortion, it's still kind of like a car. A Corvette understeers a little, a(n old, air-cooled) 911 can suddenly oversteer, and you'd find people who like both over say a Mazda or even a Lotus that lacks power even if the handling is perfectly balanced. Although in this case at least either the Corvette or 911 can get past a Miata or Elise in a long enough straight and then just keep it from passing later.

However I can clearly say there is a major difference between my tiny portable A5 and the huge & heavy Woo tube amplifier on my desk and I don't think that it's only cause it can output much more wattage.

If you crank up the WooAudio WA6 it's more likely that you'll more easily hear differences due to gobs more power without piling on distortion and noise. But not necessarily that portable one you're looking at.

 

[drewfus420]

iFi iCan Nano

 

[PanzerIV]

Cloud Nine, 1.28W into 32 ohm, 1W into 50 ohm, 250mW into 300 ohm, 120mW into 600 ohm

It seemed very interesting as it's not too thick, I never seen a portable amp with such power, thanks to the 2x9v batteries I guess though the fact you can't even charge them through USB is very anti-userfriendly and dumb. But in the review when I read the following below that it's "slower" and worse than a super cheap ~65$ Q1 while being much pricier, it appears to be a deal breaker.
(Next to the less expensive Fiio Q1, the Cloud Nine is much smoother but lacks the attack and fast speeds that the Q1 renders. For this reason, the amp would not be the best for fast paced music such as EDM or techno but instead would excel in hearty vocal numbers).

Ifi micro idsd.

I checked the specs and it seems super weak, only being 150mW at 30Ohm while the (Fiio A5) I already have does that but at 600Ohm so it has way more power while being 2x thinner.

In any case the bigger question really is why you want to use a portable amp to drive a heavy headphone that basically is not designed to try to acoustically isolate itself from the environment within which it operates.

I know it sounds weird to use such a huge and heavy headphone that isn't meant for non-stationary usage but I like being able to move around the house AT NIGHT so in that condition I am still isolated from any environment noise and I'm not doing any gym exercice while wearing them ^^

As for the (RSA Intruder) it has much potential and clearly seem better overall than the other suggestions people made here but it is also way pricier, part of the DAC that's inside and prolly isn't needed considering I use the (Fiio X5 III) DAP rather than a cellphone. I remember that RSA have a very good reputation though it has a very archaic outdated cheap website, but problem as with most audiophile brands, is that it is always based in USA and hardly ever ships outside and if you do then it's gonna be much pricier with currency, shipping, issues for returning products, no possible trials, no way to demo it anywhere in a local store, etc etc.

As you said I'm pretty much already at the best price/quality ratio and anything above there's large diminishing returns. Of course you get far better quality at the same price with a desktop amplifier which is why I mostly use my (Woo WA6-SE) but yea I don't feel like spending as much if not even more to still get lesser output only because it is "portable" as I would use it far less often, mostly just at night when I get off the computer to go upstairs and eat my cereals and do my night routine before going bed. Anyway if I understood you correctly, power output isn't everything, there's the THD that's very important too and if I can already have a high enough volume to my liking on the Fiio A5 without getting too much distortion at high volume, then it would be a waste to buy a 4x pricier amp, and same if I would mostly listen to medium volume where distortion is already completely absent.

Thanks a lot by the way for ur huge and very detailed message

 

[quisxx]

I checked the specs and it seems super weak, only being 150mW at 30Ohm while the (Fiio A5) I already have does that but at 600Ohm so it has way more power while being 2x thinner.


QUOTE]

You read wrong friend. The idsd if the strongest portable on the market. It's actually stronger than some desktops.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

It seemed very interesting as it's not too thick, I never seen a portable amp with such power, thanks to the 2x9v batteries I guess though the fact you can't even charge them through USB is very anti-userfriendly and dumb.

It's not dumb. It's just that you can't have a 5V charger charging 2x9V fast enough. They'd have to equip you with their own USB charger with 2000mA at least to make charging via USB charger fast enough, and then they'd still have to have the circuit for USB charging inside the amp that might compromise how they packaged everything in there.

Think of it this way. Even if a Bugatti EB110 has an engine that has only 3.5L displacement, that's only the cylinder volume, but if you actually see that engine, with all the four turbos mounted on it to make sure it won't have any noticeable turbo lag when you have to go from cruising to overtaking speed or lose steam on a tight corner entry that opens onto a wide sweeper, that engine isn't any smaller much less lighter than a 5.4L Lamborghini or Ferrari V12 from that era, except it revs waaaaaaaaaaaay higher than both at least thanks to the short stroke small displacement cylinders (which means you can use a lower gear and not max out the revs on wide sweeping corners).

In other words, you're looking for technology that doesn't really exist yet. At least with the car example you can customize a Lamborghini Diablo kit car to run off the two engines from a Tesla Model S P100D. You still get AWD (albeit you have to use Tesla's complete drivetrain, so no manual tranny with an L-curve going into 2nd), you get a smaller engine, and you get even more power than a Murcielago without sacrificing low end torque. But even with newer tech like this there's a compromise - instead of a tank that you can top up anywhere, whatever space and weight the smaller engines save will just go to the battery cells that you need to plan your trip around for charging.

You basically have to make do with lower power (albeit 7.2V battery powered amps nowadays are a heck of a lot better than some single 9V amps 15yrs ago, much less 7.2V amps a decade ago), a larger chassis, "anti-user friendly" charging, or very high price. You're asking to have everything. It's like wanting the acceleration and handling on a Lotus or a Ducati but you want climate control and large trunk space. Even Ducati didn't bother going up against the K1300S except that while it's the M5 of bikes, it's stlll a bike (although with their new 1200C V4 they just might reconsider that, especially if Aprilia decides they can fill the gap left by that discontinued BMW).

But in the review when I read the following below that it's "slower" and worse than a super cheap ~65$ Q1 while being much pricier, it appears to be a deal breaker.
(Next to the less expensive Fiio Q1, the Cloud Nine is much smoother but lacks the attack and fast speeds that the Q1 renders. For this reason, the amp would not be the best for fast paced music such as EDM or techno but instead would excel in hearty vocal numbers).

Again, design compromises. Something has to give somewhere. The Cloud Nine has a different distortion pattern than the Q1, but the Q1 doesn't have that kind of output.

It's kind of like how a Nelson Pass First Watt amp makes only 15watts, but it's the lowest noise, lowest distortion 15watts you're going to get. But like using a high sensitivity headphone or IEM with the Q1, you're going to have to go with a high sensitivity speaker even for the F5 with 25watts...although if you think about it a high enough sensitivity speaker will get enough noise from lesser amps anyway (which while not immediately audible on its own outside of a dead quiet room, still gets in the way of the bass), so for anybody sitting 2M away from the speakers, it's really only a choice between the First Watt or a 1W tube "Flea" Amp for higher sensitivity speakers anyway.

Mechanically, think of how a Panigale V4 has over 200hp, but it can't match the easy wheelie on a 70hp electric bike with peak torque coming in just off idle (not even the old V-Twins can match that), and then you still end up with all those battery cells offsetting the weight, so in a race where the electric bike can't recharge but the Ducati can refuel, the older tech still has the advantage until new tech develops or we run out of dead dinosaurs.

I checked the specs and it seems super weak, only being 150mW at 30Ohm while the (Fiio A5) I already have does that but at 600Ohm so it has way more power while being 2x thinner.

Fiio A5 : 800mW at 32ohms, 150mW at 300ohms, XmW at 600ohms
PlusSound Cloud Nine: 1280mW at 32ohms, 250mW at 300ohms, 120mW at 600ohms

If the Cloud Nine has a little over double the power at 300ohms and then drops to a little under half that at 600ohms; the A5 has 150mW at 300ohms down from 800mW at 32ohms. The 600ohm output of the Cloud Nine is only 30mW less than the A5's 300ohm output. I'd doubt the A5 running off a battery can sustain even the 150ohm output, unless it's designed to bias 300ohm output (like how OTL amps produce more power at 600ohm vs 32ohms).

In any case, if you're using a 90ohm headphone and the specs you have are 800mW at 32ohm, 150mW at 300ohms vs 1280mW at 32ohms, 250mW at 300ohms, just on power quantity there's no way the A5 would have more, 600ohms or not.

I know it sounds weird to use such a huge and heavy headphone that isn't meant for non-stationary usage but I like being able to move around the house AT NIGHT so in that condition I am still isolated from any environment noise and I'm not doing any gym exercice while wearing them ^^

Well that's the thing...you're moving around. I move around at night and I can hear my bedroom slippers shuffling over the hardwood floors upstairs or my rubber slippers flapping against my foot walking around the tile floor downstairs. So does the clang of my butter knife while I'm spreading my spicy tuna tartare on a slice of toast (and the timer on the toaster). The environment can be quiet, but your moving around will break that silence.

Then again maybe it's because I'm old. Outside of dealing with boredom on the train/airports or when dealing with bureaucracy, when I listen to music I listen to full albums with no distractions sitting down, not moving around, with my keyboard not even joining in with its clatter.

As for the (RSA Intruder) it has much potential and clearly seem better overall than the other suggestions people made here but it is also way pricier, part of the DAC that's inside and prolly isn't needed considering I use the (Fiio X5 III) DAP rather than a cellphone.

My mistake - I meant the SR71B. No DAC, just amp.

I remember that RSA have a very good reputation though it has a very archaic outdated cheap website, but problem as with most audiophile brands, is that it is always based in USA and hardly ever ships outside and if you do then it's gonna be much pricier with currency, shipping, issues for returning products, no possible trials, no way to demo it anywhere in a local store, etc etc.

Well they do ship abroad...it's at the other end where the problem lies. Americans can order anything from anywhere other than anything the military wouldn't want any Joe to get their hands on (like Sarin gas or C4) thanks to free trade, and other people get to sell to them...but then since other people are protectionist socialists, the USA actually loses in this kind of deal, regardless of what people who apply Lenin without thinking about the actual nuts and bolts of trade like the inequity of free trade vs the USA.

As you said I'm pretty much already at the best price/quality ratio and anything above there's large diminishing returns. Of course you get far better quality at the same price with a desktop amplifier which is why I mostly use my (Woo WA6-SE) but yea I don't feel like spending as much if not even more to still get lesser output only because it is "portable" as I would use it far less often, mostly just at night when I get off the computer to go upstairs and eat my cereals and do my night routine before going bed. Anyway if I understood you correctly, power output isn't everything, there's the THD that's very important too and if I can already have a high enough volume to my liking on the Fiio A5 without getting too much distortion at high volume, then it would be a waste to buy a 4x pricier amp, and same if I would mostly listen to medium volume where distortion is already completely absent.

I'd really be just more concerned with how to make time to sit where the WA6 is than worry about the portable gear other than if you really travel for work in which case there's absolutely no getting around it with the WA6.

 

[myusernameislove]

For planar headphone try current output of Bakoon HPA-01M.
Read about it here: https://www.headfonia.com/bakoon-international-products-hpa-01m-for-ears-and-years/2/
It is mentioned here in section "Power": https://headfonics.com/2017/08/the-vorzampduo-ii-by-vorzuge/2/ and also in Tonal Pairings section for "Audeze LCD-2", also here in LCD2 section as well: https://headfonics.com/2017/01/the-continental-v5-by-alo-audio/2/