[IstariAsuka]

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Or that OS X is bad because it can't run Windows software.

You're right! OSX is bad because it's even more of a resource hog than XP. Better?

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Originally Posted by MoSXS So far, people that have done comparisons are the same ones who will say that Creative makes the worst soundcards on the market, then praise their MP3 players.

So? I don't see a problem here. Could it be that their soundcards aren't that great, SQ-wise, when compared to similar products, but that their mobiles ARE good SQ-wise? Hmmm? You know, just because a company makes one inferior product does not make all their products inferior. Case in point: Apple. 'Cause, you know, the Shuffle is just such an outstanding product.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Who in their right mind is going to use an EQ? No true music lover is even going to consider the EQ.

You're wrong. In fact, the people most likely to use an EQ are those people most likely to choose an iPod! In other words, the vast consumer base for these products. Thus, the iPod's terrible EQ effects a large number of its users; this isn't one of those "audiophile/techno-geek only" complaints about the iPod!

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Okay, when you're talking about something that costs hundreds of dollars, the phrase "risk I'm willing to take" should NEVER be said. You should NEVER say "well I like it and I'm willing to risk it's problems." No. No way. If I pay even pay $150 for something, it better WORK with no "risks". Something that costs so much money SHOULD NOT have the risk of failing so easily (headphone jack) or just flat out DIE from a firmware update. I don't know about you, but if I pay that much money for something, I expect it to WORK and work WELL. Wondering *if* the player will die from trivial manners is NOT something that SHOULD EVER happen when the price tag is so high. Paying so much money and accepting those "risks" is basically telling the company that it's OKAY to release buggy, faulty hardware that can die easily. Sorry, but I like to make sure that my money is WELL SPENT.

You're right! So you better stop using your iPod, cause it'll die down the road too! Just ask around here, there are several with dead/dying iPods! Oh, and what of the whole HDD noise through headphones problem of lots of 4G iPods? Definately I'm not going to buy one if it doesn't "WORK and work WELL."

All players of this nature have huge risks and flaws. Deal with it. Your precious iPod isn't clean of them.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS See? Thats another thing. With something that costs so much money, there shouldn't be any "Getting used to" anything. Just as there shouldn't be any "taking risks" or "accepting risks". That is just unacceptable. If you have to "Get used" to something and accept "risks" with it, it's NOT GOOD. Plain and simple. Anyway, you can find posts in this very forum about Creative players being muddy. I recall one a couple of days about the Zen Touch being muddy.

You can read about people who have to "get used to" the iPod's sound signature as well. In fact, there's one such thread on the front page right now. Many simply don't like it at all. I guess that makes it an unacceptable product, just like you say! Better sell your iPod!

Oh, and if Creative and iRiver players are muddy, the iPod is bass shy. What's your point? Some people obviously value different aspects of the sound more than others.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Maybe you weren't used to it Anyway, how were the files encoded? What headphones were you using? I believe your ears have been tainted by the bad sound of the Micro and you need to "Get used" to hearing good sound again.

Wait, didn't you just say that "there shouldn't be any 'Getting used to' anything?" Good job on the whole consistency thing. May I suggest majoring in political science?

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Originally Posted by MoSXS I get 25+ hours with my A500s and the volume between 60-80%. No need to go louder, as 80% is already ear bleeding. EQ is bad no matter what hardware it is, so I never use it.

That's nice. For many people a 12 hour battery life is enough. Sure, more may be nice, but there are other factors at work, too.

And don't try using that argument against me by arguing that the 1G Mini's battery life was therefore acceptable. Cause, you know, I'm sure 5-6 hours of life when being heavily used, plus the fact that it drains quickly while turnind "off," IS acceptable to most people. No, just no. 12 hours, on the other hand, probably is.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Don't like hearing the truth?

Either way I enjoy killing the messenger.

Anyways, just shut up. If you're going to be self-righteous, at least be able to argue your point of view somewhat more effectively. It's just painful to read your completely unreasonable arguments.


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Originally Posted by MoSXS I also seriously hope you didn't try the iPod with your MX450s. I had the MX550s. They sounded fine with the bloated muddy bass of MD, and the muddy sound of the ZM. But the iPod really shows how much those earbuds really lack.

Well, I suppose using a pair of A500s is much more useful with a portable player? Seriously.

In fact, what you say doesn't make all that much sense. Why would a bad headphone sound better when paired with a bad source? Bad + bad = doubleplus ungood. Bad + OK = ungood. Therefore, the MX450 should sound better out of the iPod than out of the these "inferior" sources. A good source makes even bad headphones sound better.

 

[Cyclone]

IstariAsuka

Wow, thank you for that. Your post was almost identical to the one i posted in response. but mine was way more harsh and killed his point even more. too bad i cant find a nice way of putting it

Other than a few comments on the equipment i used and a few references to actuall technical sites proving that the ipod 2g sounds good but not as good as the micro your post is shockingly similar to the one i deleted. Good to know i wasnt talking out of my ass.

 

[MoSXS]

I won't reply to rockit's post because he doesn't even speak English

Repost your opinion in something actually resembling English and I'll reply to you.

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The one thing i just cant let go is your comment on the EQ. I didnt know that i wasnt allowed to truely love my music with my EQ on, should i turn it off and repent?

Using EQ is like watching a fullscreen DVD. End of discussion.

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You're right! OSX is bad because it's even more of a resource hog than XP. Better?

Don't even get me started on all of the bad points about XP. Sitting here typing this on XP SP2, I could go on for HOURS about all of the BS that Windows users have to deal with regularly. Just the fact that I have to have many features of IE DISABLED so I don't get spyware, malware, and viruses auto-installed, even with SP2, is something I shouldn't have to live with. Don't even tell me to use Firefox, because it lags far behind IE and Safari. And then I can go on and on for hours about the other security flaws, stability issues, etc.

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So? I don't see a problem here. Could it be that their soundcards aren't that great, SQ-wise, when compared to similar products, but that their mobiles ARE good SQ-wise? Hmmm?

Even though the sound signatures are the same? Sorry, but to me, the Zen series sounds like the Audigy 2 with a better headphone out. Muddy, dark, lacking detail.

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You know, just because a company makes one inferior product does not make all their products inferior. Case in point: Apple. 'Cause, you know, the Shuffle is just such an outstanding product.

I have yet to see a flash based player thats as good as the Shuffle. Show me something that's as small, has as good sound quality, built-in battery in such a small package, uses iTunes, compatible with iTMS, etc. There isn't a single flash based player that's as good as the Shuffle. And don't say Creative's MuVos or anything like that. They're big in comparison, have Creative sound quality, useless features like FM radio and voice recording.. but, most importantly, they lack good sound quality. The iPod shuffle even has no problem driving my A500s. I tried it for a good half hour at the Apple store under pressure from Apple Store employees.

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You're wrong. In fact, the people most likely to use an EQ are those people most likely to choose an iPod! In other words, the vast consumer base for these products. Thus, the iPod's terrible EQ effects a large number of its users; this isn't one of those "audiophile/techno-geek only" complaints about the iPod!

Since I posted my thread about asking advice on portables, about 10 people I know have gotten iPods. NONE of them audiophiles. You know what? Not a SINGLE PERSON uses the EQ. The ones that had a Zen Micro, H320, etc. used the EQ. But as soon as they bought the iPod, they heard it and they all said something along the lines of "it sounds so good that I don't need an EQ".

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You're right! So you better stop using your iPod, cause it'll die down the road too!

Yeah in several years

Your Karma will be dead well before my iPod. Hell, theres 1G iPods that are going to outlast your Karma.

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Just ask around here, there are several with dead/dying iPods!

Go sign up for a free trial of Napster. You'll find as many people there with dead Zen Micros due to firmware updates than dead iPods here.

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Oh, and what of the whole HDD noise through headphones problem of lots of 4G iPods? Definately I'm not going to buy one if it doesn't "WORK and work WELL."

Again, go sign up with Napster. You'll find more people THERE complaining about their Micro's headphone jack problems than you EVER heard about the supposed HDD noise problem with the iPods. I can also scour the internet and find MORE complaints about the Zen Micro's firmware and headphone jack problems than ANY Complaints about the iPod EVER.

Go ahead and google iPod problems. The vast majority of problems people have can be solved by a simple reset. Then google Zen Micro problems. The vast majority of THOSE problems are dead units thanks to faulty firmware, or failed headphone jacks.

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You can read about people who have to "get used to" the iPod's sound signature as well. In fact, there's one such thread on the front page right now.

The person came from a shoddy iRiver player.

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I guess that makes it an unacceptable product, just like you say! Better sell your iPod!

At least the HDD in my player isn't going to die for no apparent reason

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Oh, and if Creative and iRiver players are muddy, the iPod is bass shy.

Bass shy? Not on my A500s. Even the Apple earbuds have a low frequency kick and response.

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Some people obviously value different aspects of the sound more than others.

So people like mud?

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Wait, didn't you just say that "there shouldn't be any 'Getting used to' anything?" Good job on the whole consistency thing. May I suggest majoring in political science?

How about a sarcasm detector?

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That's nice. For many people a 12 hour battery life is enough. Sure, more may be nice, but there are other factors at work, too.

For something that costs so much, 12 hours isn't acceptable. Considering the Zen Micro doesn't even last close to that for most people............. While for most people, the iPod mini DOES last WELL over 20 hours.

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And don't try using that argument against me by arguing that the 1G Mini's battery life was therefore acceptable. Cause, you know, I'm sure 5-6 hours of life when being heavily used, plus the fact that it drains quickly while turnind "off," IS acceptable to most people. No, just no. 12 hours, on the other hand, probably is.

The 1G iPod mini's battery life WASN'T acceptable. Thats why I never even gave them a second glance. I never ever would have recommended a 1G iPod mini to anyone, and I never even considered the iPod until the 4G iPod was released because the battery life was unacceptable. But, with the average battery life of a 4G iPod being 14 hours, it's acceptable. Espicially when you consider that all but one of its competitors (the Zen Touch) have significantly worse real world battery performance.

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Either way I enjoy killing the messenger.

Killing the messenger? You did nothing but prove that you're just another anti-Apple fanatic that has zero experience with Apple and the iPod.

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Anyways, just shut up. If you're going to be self-righteous, at least be able to argue your point of view somewhat more effectively. It's just painful to read your completely unreasonable arguments.

You need to take your own advice.

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Well, I suppose using a pair of A500s is much more useful with a portable player? Seriously.

I actually DO use my A500s with my iPod. Regularly too. I couldn't careless how "silly" it looks. All that matters to me is that I'm enjoying my music when I want/need it.

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In fact, what you say doesn't make all that much sense. Why would a bad headphone sound better when paired with a bad source? Bad + bad = doubleplus ungood. Bad + OK = ungood. Therefore, the MX450 should sound better out of the iPod than out of the these "inferior" sources. A good source makes even bad headphones sound better.

I guess you really don't know how to read. Anyway, the MX4/550s lack bass. They have almost no bass. But when paired with something that has bloated, boomy, pumped up to outrageous levels bass like MD, they can sound "good". But when you're listening to music the way it was MEANT to be heard, well.. the source really shows their flaws. Hook the iPod earbuds up to an MD player, pull out the overbearing bass, and they'll sound 10x better than the MXx50s did.

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Wow, thank you for that. Your post was almost identical to the one i posted in response. but mine was way more harsh and killed his point even more. too bad i cant find a nice way of putting it

You've never killed anyones point. All you've proven is that you don't appreciate music and you are yet another anti-Apple fanatic that has no experience with Apple products.

 

[LoveablePuppy]

Micro is great, I owned one, until i decided to go with the rio carbon. price wise, carbon is better than micro. battery wise, carbon dominates and stomps micro over and over again. size wise, carbon spanks and whips the micro. user interface, carbon is killing the micro. carbon is so damn easy to operate in the pocket, you dont need to take it out. the zen micro's fm tuner is hella weak. if the station is strong, you get good signals, but for the most part, its weak. battery wise, its 8 hours at most. and you gotta buy an extra 30-50 dollars for another battery, which hoping you get the good one that last 8-12 hours instead of the 2 hours.

overall reliability durability, carbon is better than the micro. the headphone jack problem does exist. i'm glad some people have not encountered it yet. but it's there, lurking in the dark waiting to come out, will it be you that's going to get haunted?

but the micro also has its positives.

 

[odaen]

When I first heard the Zen Micro, I thought the signiture was the akin to that on my SBLive! Platinum. Slightly darker than that of the iPod. Granted for things like Jazz, the Zen's bass although more present than the iPod's seems to be slightly bloated.

That said listening to cheerful jazz bands on my Micro is still pleasurable. I think the way best to put it is that the iPod is anaemic with bass, probabaly a good thing for the true audiophile, but out of the box the Zen Micro is the more fun player to listen to for rock type music, and I'd probabaly get fed up of the iPod's sound after a bit.

 

[rockit]

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Originally Posted by MoSXS I won't reply to rockit's post because he doesn't even speak English Repost your opinion in something actually resembling English and I'll reply to you.

AT LEAST I KNOW WHAT THE BLEEP I'M TALKING ABOUT! bahaha!

go suck your ipod.
lol okay now i dont respect ur opinion.

i don't mind ipod lovers at all, what i mind is that u are extremely ignorant and you are unable to open up to other people's opinions. you think u are so superior- well, your not. sorry if my english is bad, i don't like to spend ten hours on checking over my grammar which i write on a gadget board, and i'm sure most other people could understand my previous post, but once again, you are unable to accept the fact that I PERSONALLY think that i like the zen micro better.

if i like the zen micro better, just shrug your shoulders and shut up. lol

bye

 

[IstariAsuka]

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Originally Posted by MoSXS I won't reply to rockit's post because he doesn't even speak English Repost your opinion in something actually resembling English and I'll reply to you.

Very accepting of you.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Using EQ is like watching a fullscreen DVD. End of discussion.

Not really, in the one situation you're missing out upon the video as intended by a huge amount, like 1/3 the picture. The same cannot be said for EQ, especially since there are many other coloring factors in the source, amp, headphones, etc. An EQ can actually make the sound closer to how it was intended.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Don't even get me started on all of the bad points about XP. Sitting here typing this on XP SP2, I could go on for HOURS about all of the BS that Windows users have to deal with regularly. Just the fact that I have to have many features of IE DISABLED so I don't get spyware, malware, and viruses auto-installed, even with SP2, is something I shouldn't have to live with. Don't even tell me to use Firefox, because it lags far behind IE and Safari. And then I can go on and on for hours about the other security flaws, stability issues, etc.

I never said anything GOOD about XP. You were just complaining that people say OSX is bad cause it can't use windows software, and so I gave you an alternate reason why it's bad.

Oh, and the only real reason that MacOS is so "safe" from spyware, viruses, etc. is because it's such a niche market that very few design them to target it. Sure, it probably is to some extent inherently safer than windows, primarily due to its being FreeBSD. That's right, any innate safety it has is not because of Apple. Anyways, still, it's mostly because no one uses it.

I'm also curious how Firefox lags being IE.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Even though the sound signatures are the same? Sorry, but to me, the Zen series sounds like the Audigy 2 with a better headphone out. Muddy, dark, lacking detail.

Could be. Portable sound quality is on a very different sound scale than home sound quality. If you can get sound out of a portable that is equal to a below-average PCI soundcard, you're doing pretty well. You just aren't going to get something that sounds like even an OK CD player, I'm sorry. Not to mention the amping quality.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS I have yet to see a flash based player thats as good as the Shuffle. Show me something that's as small, has as good sound quality, built-in battery in such a small package, uses iTunes, compatible with iTMS, etc. There isn't a single flash based player that's as good as the Shuffle. And don't say Creative's MuVos or anything like that. They're big in comparison, have Creative sound quality, useless features like FM radio and voice recording.. but, most importantly, they lack good sound quality. The iPod shuffle even has no problem driving my A500s. I tried it for a good half hour at the Apple store under pressure from Apple Store employees.

I love how you use integration with iTunes as a legitimate reason for the superiority of the Shuffle. It doesn't make a lot of sense--its only a reason due to Apple's monopolistic practices in this arena. The iTunes is supposed to be the premier solution to ALL your music needs on either Windows or MacOS. Yet, for some reason, 99.9% of MP3 players are not supported. A bit contradictory here?

As small? Muvo Slim. SQ you're obviously going to argue forever, so I won't try. Built in battery? Several. Not to mention the fact that NOT having a built in battery can be even MORE useful for a lot of people. Also, did you consider the fact that one of the primary uses of a flash player is the gym? Yeah, and in the gym oftentimes the TV broadcasts its audio on a FM channel. Seems like FM reception is not that useless a feature for a flash player!

And did I mention that most every other flash player in existance has a screen? My, what a concept.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Since I posted my thread about asking advice on portables, about 10 people I know have gotten iPods. NONE of them audiophiles. You know what? Not a SINGLE PERSON uses the EQ. The ones that had a Zen Micro, H320, etc. used the EQ. But as soon as they bought the iPod, they heard it and they all said something along the lines of "it sounds so good that I don't need an EQ".

Betcha they only said that because the iPod has a stronger output, not for other reasons. Or they tried out the EQ with the iPod, and noticed how bad it sounded, and thus refused to use it. Even if they didn't think it out quite like that.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Yeah in several years Your Karma will be dead well before my iPod. Hell, theres 1G iPods that are going to outlast your Karma.

Head over to Riovolution. Most Karmas have lasted for more than 10 months already. Sure, it has a less reliable HDD, you're right. But guess what? That's a compromise I was willing to make.

Especially given that I got my Karma for 1/2 the price of an iPod.

And the fact that it has a superior GUI, by and large.

Did I mention it actually includes things like a dock? And cables? New iPods don't even come with a firewire cable.

Furthermore, if I was that worried I could have gotten a 2 year warranty for about $20. Still way cheaper than the iPod, and with a longer warranty too!

Oh, and who cares if a 1G iPod lasts a little longer? By that time MP3 players will be dirt cheap, and you'll/I'll have a new one.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Go sign up for a free trial of Napster. You'll find as many people there with dead Zen Micros due to firmware updates than dead iPods here. Again, go sign up with Napster. You'll find more people THERE complaining about their Micro's headphone jack problems than you EVER heard about the supposed HDD noise problem with the iPods. I can also scour the internet and find MORE complaints about the Zen Micro's firmware and headphone jack problems than ANY Complaints about the iPod EVER. Go ahead and google iPod problems. The vast majority of problems people have can be solved by a simple reset. Then google Zen Micro problems. The vast majority of THOSE problems are dead units thanks to faulty firmware, or failed headphone jacks.

That's irrelavent to your previous argument. You were saying that there should be NO problems with something so expensive. Now you're simply saying "Yeah, well, other players have more problems!"

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Originally Posted by MoSXS The person came from a shoddy iRiver player.

You know, if you're so into SQ first and foremost, and are willing to pay such a premium for it, and even use A500s portably, you should respect the fact that the iHP-100 series have optical outs on the players. But, well, obviously you're blind to such facts, and have reached the conclusion that anything other than an iPod sounds absolutely crappy--like mud.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS At least the HDD in my player isn't going to die for no apparent reason

Don't be so sure. It's happened.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Bass shy? Not on my A500s. Even the Apple earbuds have a low frequency kick and response.

Yeah, whatever. This has already been regurgitated ad infinitum, and proven with frequency response charts. No portable is perfect. Including the iPod.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS So people like mud?

Apparantly so, if that's how you want to perceive it.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS How about a sarcasm detector?

How about a reason detector?

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Originally Posted by MoSXS For something that costs so much, 12 hours isn't acceptable. Considering the Zen Micro doesn't even last close to that for most people............. While for most people, the iPod mini DOES last WELL over 20 hours.

I would guess that 12 hours IS enough for most people. After all, they make due with the iPod, right? The full sized ones, that is.

And I never defended the Micro's battery life. I actually voted for the Carbon in this thread, and my second choice would have been the iPod Mini, believe it or not!

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Originally Posted by MoSXS The 1G iPod mini's battery life WASN'T acceptable. Thats why I never even gave them a second glance. I never ever would have recommended a 1G iPod mini to anyone, and I never even considered the iPod until the 4G iPod was released because the battery life was unacceptable.

Glad we agree about the 1G iPod Mini.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS But, with the average battery life of a 4G iPod being 14 hours, it's acceptable. Espicially when you consider that all but one of its competitors (the Zen Touch) have significantly worse real world battery performance.

Karma has comparable battery life. HD1/2/3 have way better battery life. The M3 has comparable battery life. the M3l has way better battery life. The iRivers have almost comparable battery life too, IIRC.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS Killing the messenger? You did nothing but prove that you're just another anti-Apple fanatic that has zero experience with Apple and the iPod.

Unfortunately, that's just not true. I had to Macs everyday for some 3 years. Including for such purposes as digital video, sound, and picture manipulation. Primarily digital video. Isn't the Mac supposed to be WAY BETTER than the PC for that? That's what all the Apple propoganda says. I didn't find it to be so at all. And that's not even looking at it from a price/performance perspective.

Oh, and my best friend, and many others I know, have iPods. I have experience with them. Do YOU have experience with all the Creative, iRiver, Rio, etc. players that you are bashing?

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Originally Posted by MoSXS You need to take your own advice.

Oh, I am. Because I'm not being self righteous. See, I'm not the one maintaining that some particular player is INFINITELY BETTER IN EVERY POSSIBLE ASPECT (or at least all the ones that matter...to me).

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Originally Posted by MoSXS I actually DO use my A500s with my iPod. Regularly too. I couldn't careless how "silly" it looks. All that matters to me is that I'm enjoying my music when I want/need it.

Again, than you should appreciate those who use other players, especially those with line-outs.

And if all that matters is that you're enjoying your music, then what's wrong with other people enjoying their "muddy" sound more than the iPods "clean" sound? If all that matters is enjoying the music, that argument doesn't hold. Yet you seem awfully keen to make them look foolish for choosing a non-iPod.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS I guess you really don't know how to read. Anyway, the MX4/550s lack bass. They have almost no bass. But when paired with something that has bloated, boomy, pumped up to outrageous levels bass like MD, they can sound "good". But when you're listening to music the way it was MEANT to be heard, well.. the source really shows their flaws. Hook the iPod earbuds up to an MD player, pull out the overbearing bass, and they'll sound 10x better than the MXx50s did.

Generally "good" sound around here is considered to be that which best represents the truth. With this in mind, being able to hear the MX400 series deficiencies when used with the iPod would be preferable, and sound better, than when used with something that has bloated bass.

In which case, your earlier advice not to judge the iPod's sound based upon using that particular headphone, because it is easier to perceive its (the headphones') deficincies, is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by MoSXS You've never killed anyones point. All you've proven is that you don't appreciate music and you are yet another anti-Apple fanatic that has no experience with Apple products.

As I mentioned above, I actually have a reasonable amount of experience with Apple products. Sure, probably not as much as you, oh mighty Apple-worshiper, but I do have a fair bit of experience.

If I don't like Apple products, which I don't by and large, it's due to very rational reasons. I'm not just some foaming "anti-Apple fanatic." That's not to say that I think they're all terrible--as I mentioned, I almost voted for the iPod Mini in this survey, and as it is consider it second best.

Moreover, how have I proven that I don't appreciate music? That seems a giant leap to make, with nothing to back it up. In fact, by making such a baseless accusation, you're merely cementing the perception of yourself as a fool.

 

[Cyclone]

Im pretty well convinced that MoSX is just a trolling fan boy looking to ruffle people's feathers for the pleasure of it, no matter how many contradictions there are he wont change his opinion of anything. There's no convincing him of any of your opinions and any of the flat out facts because he just cant/wont except the fact that some players are just better for other people. I dont think the arguements against him need any further pursuit as MoSX makes a fool of himself better than anyone else could, just put him on you guy's ignore list and let ignorant, paranoid, fanboys rest in their own seething haze of ignorance and hatred towards everyone/everything else.

Oh and calling everyone that disagree's with you an "anti-apple fanatic" doesnt make people think that they are anti-apple, it just makes you look like an over zealous fool who cant even see that he is the apple fanatic.

 

[YamiTenshi]

IstariAsuka (and a few other people out there whom I know are probably annoyed also

), I think it would be in your best interest to just stop replying to MoSXS's posts. He obviously has very strong opinions about Apple, and it doesn't seem like he'll listen to anyone who disagrees with him (check some of the other threads he's posted in

).

Instead of having these pages of arguing back and forth just make one post about how you disagree and don't reply anymore if it seems like you'll just end up in an open arguement... it's not really productive and can turn other members away from the discussion.

This really all comes down to personal opinion so aruging back and forth that someone else's personal likes and dislikes are "wrong" won't get anywhere.

 

[MoSXS]

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Not really, in the one situation you're missing out upon the video as intended by a huge amount, like 1/3 the picture. The same cannot be said for EQ, especially since there are many other coloring factors in the source, amp, headphones, etc. An EQ can actually make the sound closer to how it was intended.

An EQ can actually make the sound closer to how it was intended? Doesn't that go against what the vast majority of people here have said? I mostly do quick lurking at this forum, but the vast majority of posts I read here.. well, most people say that EQ CHANGES how the sound was intended. So saying EQ actually makes it closer to the originally intended sound is like saying opening up the "open matte" portion of a movie is "bringing the movie closer to the directors original intentions". Or like saying you get to see "more" in the fullscreen versions of "LOTR" and it was intended to be viewed that way because some of the effects were actually redone for the fullscreen DVDs.

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Anyways, still, it's mostly because no one uses it.

I wouldn't call several million people "no one". Every time I've gone to an Apple Store, it's been packed. Not just with people looking for iPods or iPod accessories either.

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If you can get sound out of a portable that is equal to a below-average PCI soundcard, you're doing pretty well.

If you consider weak, underpowered, muddy sound to be good... But then again, you seem to be defending the ZM.

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You just aren't going to get something that sounds like even an OK CD player, I'm sorry.

Many people at this forum have said that the iPod's sound quality is on par with many good CD players.

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Not to mention the amping quality.

Not to mention the iPod has a more powerful headphone amp than everyone else.

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It doesn't make a lot of sense--its only a reason due to Apple's monopolistic practices in this arena.

So it's okay for Microsoft to strong arm their way to the top through illegal practices, but... god forbid Apple make Apple products only work with other Apple products

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Yet, for some reason, 99.9% of MP3 players are not supported. A bit contradictory here?

It's not Apple's fault that people don't write plug-ins for iTunes to support other players. Apple doesn't have to support their competitors, much in the same way that MS made PC manufacturers agree to not include competitors products on PCs.

If Creative wants iTunes support, they can write an iTunes plug-in. Simple as that.

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As small? Muvo Slim.

Another player Creative can drop support for in a few months when it doesn't sell well (like the Zen Touch)?

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Not to mention the fact that NOT having a built in battery can be even MORE useful for a lot of people. Also, did you consider the fact that one of the primary uses of a flash player is the gym?

You say I contradict myself. Most people going to the gym only need the player to last for a couple of hours at most. So having a huge, heavy AA or AAA battery is more of an inconvenience than anything else.

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Yeah, and in the gym oftentimes the TV broadcasts its audio on a FM channel. Seems like FM reception is not that useless a feature for a flash player!

So people can watch reality crap like American Idol while they work out? pfft. Useless.

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And did I mention that most every other flash player in existance has a screen? My, what a concept.

And that matters... because.... why? I use the screen on my iPod. But 99% of the time, a playlist gets shuffled and it gets dropped in my pocket or set on the desk. Same with my old MD players and CD players. The screen on a HDD player is useful because of the sheer amount of songs you have in one place. The screen on a flash player, or MD player, is useless because you only have a couple of hours of music *at most*.

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Betcha they only said that because the iPod has a stronger output, not for other reasons. Or they tried out the EQ with the iPod, and noticed how bad it sounded, and thus refused to use it. Even if they didn't think it out quite like that.

Everyone made their EQ comments BEFORE they tried the EQ. You mention the iPod having a stronger output.. this is true. For the cost of all DAPs, there shouldn't be ANY issues with a weak output and the EQ SHOULD NOT be needed to make up for weakness.

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Most Karmas have lasted for more than 10 months already. Sure, it has a less reliable HDD, you're right. But guess what? That's a compromise I was willing to make.

OOOOH 10 months!

Wow! And theres a lot of 1G iPods that will be turning 4 years old soon.

Anyway, with something that is so expensive, there shouldn't be ANY "compromises". None. If I pay a lot of money for something, I should never have to say "well this isn't perfect, but I can deal with it." Nope. Sorry, things like that just don't happen. If the Karma was $50, then that would be okay. But not even at $200.

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And the fact that it has a superior GUI, by and large.

Hah! Now I know you haven't used an iPod.

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Did I mention it actually includes things like a dock? And cables? New iPods don't even come with a firewire cable.

Well, considering that the vast majority of iPod users don't use firewire, theres no need for it. My iPod is quite happy and fast using USB 2.0. Yeah its nice that the Karma comes with a dock.. And now even with the iPod photo you have to buy a dock..... but you can rest knowing that your iPod photo will still WORK in 2 years.

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Oh, and who cares if a 1G iPod lasts a little longer? By that time MP3 players will be dirt cheap, and you'll/I'll have a new one.

It's a matter of getting the most for your money. When you pay hundreds of dollars for something, it SHOULD LAST. There shouldn't be any "well the hard drive might die in 12 months" or anything like that. When you pay that much for something, it HAS TO LAST and BE RELIABLE. Simple as that. I would bet good money saying that there will still be 1G iPods living YEARS after all of the Karmas have failed.

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That's irrelavent to your previous argument. You were saying that there should be NO problems with something so expensive. Now you're simply saying "Yeah, well, other players have more problems!"

What? Geez, talk about trying to take something out of context because you got proven wrong. Anyhow, yes there SHOULDN'T be any problems. With the iPod, there are almost NEVER any problems. 90% of problems with the iPod can be solved with a simple reset. However, everyother HD-DAP has SEVERE hardware and firmware problems. For every one instance of a true iPod hardware defect, you can find at least 20-30 more severe problems with players from other manufacturers.

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You know, if you're so into SQ first and foremost, and are willing to pay such a premium for it, and even use A500s portably, you should respect the fact that the iHP-100 series have optical outs on the players.

Nevermind the fact that I don't want to carry a portable DAC (for MP3s?) with me everywhere. Nevermind the fact that iRiver has a terrible UI, battery life, etc.

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Don't be so sure. It's happened.

The chances of my iPod dying like a Karma are about as likely as me winning the lottery on Saturday.

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This has already been regurgitated ad infinitum, and proven with frequency response charts.

Because we all know that the frequency response charts hosted on a user's home ISP were the result of professional testing with professional equipment, and the testing was completely equal across all platforms.

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I would guess that 12 hours IS enough for most people. After all, they make due with the iPod, right? The full sized ones, that is.

It gets about 14 hours. Head over to iPod lounge and you'll see that the average battery life is just over 14 hours. Go to anywhere else and you'll find the average battery life for the ZM is below 10 hours. The average battery life for a 2G iPod is 24+ hours.

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HD1/2/3 have way better battery life.

Only if you're using terrible atrac files. You also have an astonishingly weak headphone output, bad software, and a terrible UI.

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the M3l has way better battery life.

I said "competitors". Not players that nobody has purchased.

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The iRivers have almost comparable battery life too, IIRC.

Only if you turn the screen OFF.

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Unfortunately, that's just not true. I had to Macs everyday for some 3 years. Including for such purposes as digital video, sound, and picture manipulation. Primarily digital video. Isn't the Mac supposed to be WAY BETTER than the PC for that?

It's a matter of software. Video and sound editing softare intergrate into OS X and the hardware much better than PC solutions. Infact, are there even good PC video editing suites that aren't shoddy ports or cheap $100 pieces of software that are no better than what comes with a $50 TV Tuner? Good luck getting an average PC to handle large video files without some sort of hiccup, thanks to XP's "wonderful" memory management compared to OSX as well. Thats another great thing about OS X. You could be transcoding a DVD to DivX/Xvid and still browse the web, chat in IMs, and run iTunes and not even feel it if you have 512MB of RAM. With a PC, no matter what your system configuration, it'll grind to a halt.

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Do YOU have experience with all the Creative, iRiver, Rio, etc. players that you are bashing?

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Again, than you should appreciate those who use other players, especially those with line-outs.

If I needed a portable line-out, I could buy an accessory and have a line-out that many rate as good as CD players costing a few hundred dollars. Then I could use Apple Lossless as well. How many players support Lossless? Not counting the various iPods, you could count them all on one hand probably.

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And if all that matters is that you're enjoying your music, then what's wrong with other people enjoying their "muddy" sound more than the iPods "clean" sound?

I have no problem with people enjoying bad sounding DAPs. But I do have a problem when they go and spread false propoganda about how it's better than what truly is the best.

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Generally "good" sound around here is considered to be that which best represents the truth. With this in mind, being able to hear the MX400 series deficiencies when used with the iPod would be preferable, and sound better, than when used with something that has bloated bass.

This coming from someone who advocated the use of EQ? Riiiiiiiiight. According to your logic, using the iPod earbud's with their colored sound would "bring the sound closer to what the artist originally intended"

In either case, the iPod earbuds sound better simply because they don't sound like transistor radio earbuds.

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because he just cant/wont except the fact that some players are just better for other people.

I don't care about that. What I do care about is people, like a certain someone I'm addressing now, spreading lies about how one thing is better than another, when it's not.

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fanboys rest in their own seething haze of ignorance and hatred towards everyone/everything else.

Says the one who bashed a product they never used.

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Oh and calling everyone that disagree's with you an "anti-apple fanatic" doesnt make people think that they are anti-apple, it just makes you look like an over zealous fool who cant even see that he is the apple fanatic.

I know I'm an Apple fanatic. And for good reason too. But unlike you, I can admit the truth.

 

[gradeo]

Side note for the guy in the southwest: www.pricegrabber.com and cnet.com (compare price feature) are your friends. You'll literally save about 20% on every purchase.

This subject is really hard to do, as different players are great at different price points. I imagine some company makes a super high end mini player that would be the best overall.

 

[mightymouse]

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Originally Posted by mr.caliente Not true. I've had my Micro for 4 months now and haven't experienced a headphone jack problem at all. Neither have 5 of my other friends who own Micros. And many many people on this forum haven't experienced it either. The problem is a huge exaggeration.

I never had a problem with my headphone jack until 5 months were over. Some not even 1 day.

It is a defect of the product, and does affect ALL players- it is not an exaggeration whatsoever. Sure, you can make sure that ur headphone plug isn't moved around alot- but one day (possibly after ur warranty expires),its gonna go kablooop on you.

Unlike the H10 or the ipod, the jack is BOUND to move out of place, it is just a matter of time. Thus, it is a defect.

Sure, you may never have to return it, but thats your luck. It is a defect, and it stays one until creative attempts to fix it.

 

[Prothall]

While I vaguely want to go point by point and deconstruct the argument of the Apple fanatic, I feel as though I'd end up sticking my foot in my mouth somewhere (pointing out internal contradictions without foiling both points is messy, and in foiling both points you stand a good point of creating a basis for contradiction) and as though it's unecessary. I'd like to ask this question, though, as a certain something in his comments seemed more than usually illogical:

How in the name of all that is holy do you get Firefox to be slower than Internet Explorer?

 

[nckch]

Just a question, if the ipod sound is soooo true how come they bring out special headphone versions such as the ER6i to boost the ipod sound ?



H10 Ex71SL's

 

[Cyclone]

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Originally Posted by nckch Just a question, if the ipod sound is soooo true how come they bring out special headphone versions such as the ER6i to boost the ipod sound ?

.....BAHAHHAA! The er6i is not meant to make up for the ipods lack of bass, its to make up for the er6's lack of bass. And even then the more bass heavy e3c is not even close to being a bass monster or even a can that has decent bass. Etymotic isnt owned by Apple, they just market to the leader in sales, if the carbon was the leader in sales ety would be selling er6c's that have grey cords and chrome buds.