Poll: Were the moon landings fake?
Jul 18, 2009 at 11:11 PM Post #376 of 468
• No plan to return until 2018

Much of the knowledge we gained for Apollo has been lost, due to the fact that manned space flight, aside from low Earth orbit, has not been a priority since Apollo ended. It also takes a long time to ramp up engineering efforts, get manufacturers on board, etc. (I work in electronic R&D, so know what it takes to get even a relatively small radio project moving. I can't even imagine a rocket program, with literally thousands of Engineers and support personnel.)

• Absence of engine noise in official NASA footage

On the moon, the engines are operating in a vacuum - with no air to transmit sound, only whatever engine noise that is directly conducted through the hull of the spacecraft can be detected. (The astronauts them themselves verify this.) Also, the microphones used are made to reduce cabin noise - you have to pretty much have your mouth right on the mike to be heard clearly. One astronaut even referred to them as tonsil mics, as in you practically had to swallow it to be heard. Even on Earth, the engine noise doesn't really come through.

• How was it possible for footprints to be left undisturbed and without dust

Lunar dust has unique properties. Since there is no weathering, the dust particles have sharp edges, and thus stay compacted. Certain types of Earth soils exhibit pretty much the same properties, so this phenomenon is not unheard of.

• No evidence of an exhaust plume from LEM during ascent

The mixture of propellants used does not have much flame, especially in a vacuum.

• Grainy, Unclear video images despite having the technology

Need examples, please. (I love this - we didn't have the technology to go to the moon, yet we had the technology to have perfectly clear film under any conditions. You can't have it both ways.)

• Crosshairs on Still Photographs were partially obscured and sometime beneath the images

The crosshairs on the Rosseau plates are very narrow (.003"). Overexposed areas on the film can obscure these lines. A close examination of images shows the crosshairs where they are supposed to be in dark areas, and are obscured in bright areas in the same images.

• Identical backdrops despite NASA stating the images were taken at different times and over 2 miles apart

Different croppings of images. If you look at the full frame images these problems go away.

• No report of radiation from The Can Allen Radiation Belt, problematic reports came after the moon landing

?

• Between 1964 and 1967 10 astronauts died in 'accidents'

Don't know about all that, but what does that have to do with getting to the moon?
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 11:38 PM Post #377 of 468
A couple of somewhat minor modifications:

• No evidence of an exhaust plume from LEM during ascent

The mixture of propellants used does not have much flame, especially in a vacuum.


The Lunar Module used Aerozine-50 as one of it's fuel components. The plume from an engine using Aerozine-50 is essentially colorless. Properly designed hypergolic rocket engines only smoke at start-up until they reach steady-state. For the Lunar Module, that takes only a about a second, and by the time the plume goes by the camera, it is at steady state, hence no smoke.

• Identical backdrops despite NASA stating the images were taken at different times and over 2 miles apart

Different croppings of images. If you look at the full frame images these problems go away.

As I recall, this is actually a debunked hoax by one of the conspiracy theorists. I think that by going back to the original NASA archives, and linking the video time stamps with the audio transcripts, it was shown that the supposed "identical background" was a complete sham created by the hoax proponent. I'll see if I can find the references. If I have this wrong, I'll say that as well.

Edit: Here it is: Bart Sibrel Caught Cheating

I certainly don't expect this to convince anyone - I'm sure it will be claimed that the video I linked to contains the fake information, not Bart Sibrel's. Or, they will claim that the original NASA video and audio transcripts were altered after the "mistake" was revealed. Since there's no end to that line of argument, I'll just leave this point here and suggest that the conspiracy would need to be very, very large indeed to cover the unending parade of claims the hoax proponents cling to.
 
Jul 18, 2009 at 11:56 PM Post #378 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by billybob_jcv /img/forum/go_quote.gif
A couple of somewhat minor modifications:

• No evidence of an exhaust plume from LEM during ascent

The mixture of propellants used does not have much flame, especially in a vacuum.


The Lunar Module used Aerozine-50 as one of it's fuel components. The plume from an engine using Aerozine-50 is essentially colorless. Properly designed hypergolic rocket engines only smoke at start-up until they reach steady-state. For the Lunar Module, that takes only a about a second, and by the time the plume goes by the camera, it is at steady state, hence no smoke.



Explanation and example photos here:
Clavius: Vehicles - rocket engines

Also worth noting is that the cameras used to film the LEM lifting off from the moon were not running at 24 fps, in order to conserve film, so we don't see the entire burn sequence.

Quote:

• Identical backdrops despite NASA stating the images were taken at different times and over 2 miles apart

Different croppings of images. If you look at the full frame images these problems go away.

As I recall, this is actually a debunked hoax by one of the conspiracy theorists. I think that by going back to the original NASA archives, and linking the video time stamps with the audio transcripts, it was shown that the supposed "identical background" was a complete sham created by the hoax proponent. I'll see if I can find the references. If I have this wrong, I'll say that as well.


Is this the image you were thinking about?

Clavius: Photo Analysis - earth in the frame
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:16 AM Post #379 of 468
Just a quick reply from the top of my head, I can't reply to everyone in detail but will have a read through and build on this later tonight.

• No plan to return until 2018
How is that inconsistent with Apollo 11?
Not an inconsistancy per se, shows me if they have to plan now for 10 years to go to the moon they didn't go the first time. We are not only so much more advanced now, science and engineering in general has only flurished in the past 60 years or so.

• Absence of engine noise in official NASA footage
From take-off you mean?
Yeah on the official Nasa footage there is no engine noise upon blasting off.. im not sure how it was possible to hear the astronauts over this. "We're on our way huston"

• How was it possible for footprints to be left undisturbed and without dust
I'm not sure why it should not be possible? Please elaborate.
Well if there walking around in a dusty environment why didn't that same dust cover the prints.. also they are said to be there to this day, wouldn't the leaving of the lunar module cause dust to rise and fall?

• No evidence of an exhaust plume from LEM during ascent
The plume burned with an invisible flame.
Yeah I'll buy that, still it does look like it was yanked up

• Grainy, Unclear video images despite having the technology
I actually don't know what state of the art for transmissions at Moon distances was at the time. Are there video from unmanned missions which indicate that it should have been better?
Hmm, only theorizing but if they can send a man to the moon and design a camera capable of working in 2 extreme temperatures at once I would think they could provide a smooth broadcast.

• Crosshairs on Still Photographs were partially obscured and sometime beneath the images
This has been explained numerous times. It should be a common phenomenon in photography ("bleeding").
We call this clone stamp tool in Photoshop. Bleeding is printing that goes over the page, are these stitched together images?

• Identical backdrops despite NASA stating the images were taken at different times and over 2 miles apart
Interesting? Do you have links to the pictures in question along with data about the distance to these rocks, mountains, hills etc.? Thanks.
I'll research and post this separately

• No report of radiation from The Can Allen Radiation Belt, problematic reports came after the moon landing
Van Allen himself says it's a non-issue. Who do you trust more than the man himself on this issue? Link please, if possible.
It could be possible that Van Allen believes they went to the moon and retracted his radiation statement based on that. Other astronauts after Apollo 11 have experienced this, seeing white sparks even with there eyes closed.

• Between 1964 and 1967 10 astronauts died in 'accidents'
How is that inconsistent with Apollo 11?
Well people like to say astronauts wouldn't keep it a secret, coincidentally 10 of them died

I also include into my thinking:
• Why did the astronauts look so ashamed when meeting JFK after the 'trip'?
JFK?
I remember seeing this video where they all looked so guilty, I guess this could be interpreted different ways but a lie like this must take a toll. Perhaps this wasn't JFK, I'll look into that.

• Why would none of the astronauts swear on the Bible that they went to the moon?
I can speculate, but I don't know for sure.
For charity I might add! ~ If someone offered to give $5,000 to charity if I swore on the Bible that I had been to the moon and I indeed had I wouldn't hesitate ... just as If I was approached today, same offer and pledge that I had visited Tennessee for instance I wouldn't have a problem with this.

• Did the US have reasons to fake such an event?
Yes.
Yes.

• Is such a stunt possible to fake?
Highly unlikely in my view.
The movie Capricorn One looked just like the moon landing, further more I question do they have hangers big enough to pull this off in Area 51? Yes.
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:41 AM Post #380 of 468
lol
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 12:47 AM Post #381 of 468
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:00 AM Post #382 of 468
I'll have a go at a couple of those, if I may.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif
• Crosshairs on Still Photographs were partially obscured and sometime beneath the images
This has been explained numerous times. It should be a common phenomenon in photography ("bleeding").
We call this clone stamp tool in Photoshop. Bleeding is printing that goes over the page, are these stitched together images?



Bleeding is a phenomenon mainly limited to analog photography. The silver halides on the film react with light, get exposed. If the light is strong enough (like the light reflected from a spacesuit in the atmosphere-less high noon of the moon) there will occur a sort of chain reaction, because the excited silver halide ions will dispose energy by distributing it along the photographic film. A thin, but very bright line will therefore appear thicker, and slightly 'wooly' on the negative and the developed print.
This effect occurs in digital photography as well, but to lesser degree.
Experiment if you want. Try to take a picture of a hair pin in front of a glowing light bulb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif
• Identical backdrops despite NASA stating the images were taken at different times and over 2 miles apart
Interesting? Do you have links to the pictures in question along with data about the distance to these rocks, mountains, hills etc.? Thanks.
I'll research and post this separately



I know this one. One of the most quoted pictures are one with the LEM in the foreground and some hills in the background, and another with the same background, but no LEM, looking as if it were just moved.

If you in the first picture imagine walking up to the LEM and position yourself immediately in front of if, and take a picture in the same direction, this is what you will get, because the background is so very far behind, and the foreground, Except the LEM, is very monotone.
Experiment a little with this one as well if you like.

I'm curious about why you didn't bring up the 'multiple light source' proofs as well?
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:03 AM Post #383 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Graphicism /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Just a quick reply from the top of my head, I can't reply to everyone in detail but will have a read through and build on this later tonight.


Well, you brought up a lot of stuff instead of just a few of the more convinciong (in your mind) evidence.

• No plan to return until 2018
How is that inconsistent with Apollo 11?
Not an inconsistancy per se, shows me if they have to plan now for 10 years to go to the moon they didn't go the first time. We are not only so much more advanced now, science and engineering in general has only flurished in the past 60 years or so.
I would imagine that the budget today is much smaller than it was back then. Let's leave this one.

• Absence of engine noise in official NASA footage
From take-off you mean?
Yeah on the official Nasa footage there is no engine noise upon blasting off.. im not sure how it was possible to hear the astronauts over this. "We're on our way huston"
I see what you mean now. However, it seems reasonable to me that the microphones were designed especially to get clear speech in a noisy environment. I find the explanation about the "tonsil" microphones plausible.

• How was it possible for footprints to be left undisturbed and without dust
I'm not sure why it should not be possible? Please elaborate.
Well if there walking around in a dusty environment why didn't that same dust cover the prints.. also they are said to be there to this day, wouldn't the leaving of the lunar module cause dust to rise and fall?
Dust doesn't fly around on the Moon, dust-particles falls like a brick there.

About the prints being there to this day, well, they could in theory be wrong about this, Maybe some of the prints did get covered or at least partially covered.

Your argument would need further investigation if we knew that the prints was in fact not covered up as they left, but we don't know that.

• No evidence of an exhaust plume from LEM during ascent
The plume burned with an invisible flame.
Yeah I'll buy that, still it does look like it was yanked up
Let's leave this one then.

• Grainy, Unclear video images despite having the technology
I actually don't know what state of the art for transmissions at Moon distances was at the time. Are there video from unmanned missions which indicate that it should have been better?
Hmm, only theorizing but if they can send a man to the moon and design a camera capable of working in 2 extreme temperatures at once I would think they could provide a smooth broadcast.
I don't think you can compare different technologies like that. Unless you have a reference to an old TV technician who thinks it should be much better quality, let's just leave this one as neither of us can guess what the quality should have been like back then.

• Crosshairs on Still Photographs were partially obscured and sometime beneath the images
This has been explained numerous times. It should be a common phenomenon in photography ("bleeding").
We call this clone stamp tool in Photoshop. Bleeding is printing that goes over the page, are these stitched together images?
I just don't know enough about this. Do you have a link etc. where a person knowledgeable in photography with the film and equipment used in the mission claims that there is something wrong with the pics?

• Identical backdrops despite NASA stating the images were taken at different times and over 2 miles apart
Interesting? Do you have links to the pictures in question along with data about the distance to these rocks, mountains, hills etc.? Thanks.
I'll research and post this separately
ok

• No report of radiation from The Can Allen Radiation Belt, problematic reports came after the moon landing
Van Allen himself says it's a non-issue. Who do you trust more than the man himself on this issue? Link please, if possible.
It could be possible that Van Allen believes they went to the moon and retracted his radiation statement based on that. Other astronauts after Apollo 11 have experienced this, seeing white sparks even with there eyes closed.
Were these "sparks" attributed to the Van Allen radiation?

(These other astronauts you talk of, what were they doing out in the Van Allen belt if they weren't going to the Moon?) Edit: Forget this last sentence, I guess they were servicing satellites.

• Between 1964 and 1967 10 astronauts died in 'accidents'
How is that inconsistent with Apollo 11?
Well people like to say astronauts wouldn't keep it a secret, coincidentally 10 of them died
This is not evidence but pure speculation.

I also include into my thinking:
• Why did the astronauts look so ashamed when meeting JFK after the 'trip'?
JFK?
I remember seeing this video where they all looked so guilty, I guess this could be interpreted different ways but a lie like this must take a toll. Perhaps this wasn't JFK, I'll look into that.
I don't think it was JFK, he died in 1963.

• Why would none of the astronauts swear on the Bible that they went to the moon?
I can speculate, but I don't know for sure.
For charity I might add! ~ If someone offered to give $5,000 to charity if I swore on the Bible that I had been to the moon and I indeed had I wouldn't hesitate ... just as If I was approached today, same offer and pledge that I had visited Tennessee for instance I wouldn't have a problem with this.
Why don't we leave this one. The subject is not allowed at Head-Fi.

• Did the US have reasons to fake such an event?
Yes.
Yes.

• Is such a stunt possible to fake?
Highly unlikely in my view.
The movie Capricorn One looked just like the moon landing, further more I question do they have hangers big enough to pull this off in Area 51? Yes.[/QUOTE]
Do you have a link to a Mars-walking scene in this film. Although Mars has about double the gravity than that of the Moon, it's still only about a third of the Earth gravity. I cannot fathom how you could convincingly show men walking in low gravity except through CGI, to this day I haven't seen this done convincingly in any movie. But I'd like to see how they did it in the movie you talk about. What I will be looking for is quick movements (indicating that the film wasn't just slowed down) combined with slow falling and high jumping.
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:05 AM Post #384 of 468
Graphicism, I googled a few of your "points" and a few came up verbatim on moon hoax sites. Why can't you build your own questions instead of blindly following like we sheep do?
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:16 AM Post #385 of 468
BTW, here's one of the "bible" incidents that is now being used against the Apollo astronauts. Bart Sibrel is a first class jerk. He tried to sue Buzz Aldrin after getting punched, but the judge threw the case out because of the aggressive & threatening way Sibrel went after Buzz. Buzz Aldrin was 70+ years old when he decked Sibrel. Lesson: Don't call a West Point graduate a "thief and a liar" unless you are prepared to get an @ss-whooping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUFO8AGMwic
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:21 AM Post #386 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicArmada /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Graphicism, I googled a few of your "points" and a few came up verbatim on moon hoax sites. Why can't you build your own questions instead of blindly following like we sheep do?


Never mind that, for the conspiracy theorists, the lunar ranging arrays

The Most Important Thing Armstrong Left on the Moon

must have simply floated up there by magic, right?

After all, 40 years of 'pinging' the moon with Earth-based lasers proves...nothing
rolleyes.gif
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:30 AM Post #387 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by Snake /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Never mind that, for the conspiracy theorists, the lunar ranging arrays

The Most Important Thing Armstrong Left on the Moon

must have simply floated up there by magic, right?

After all, 40 years of 'pinging' the moon with Earth-based lasers proves...nothing
rolleyes.gif



Already talked about. Supposedly an unmanned aircraft left it.
rolleyes.gif
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:37 AM Post #388 of 468
limpidglitch;5859138 said:
I'll have a go at a couple of those, if I may.

Quote:

Bleeding is a phenomenon mainly limited to analog photography. The silver halides on the film react with light, get exposed. If the light is strong enough (like the light reflected from a spacesuit in the atmosphere-less high noon of the moon) there will occur a sort of chain reaction, because the excited silver halide ions will dispose energy by distributing it along the photographic film. A thin, but very bright line will therefore appear thicker, and slightly 'wooly' on the negative and the developed print.
This effect occurs in digital photography as well, but to lesser degree.
Experiment if you want. Try to take a picture of a hair pin in front of a glowing light bulb.


Like these images?
as15-88-11863-flag.jpg

as17-136-20760-fender.jpg


Also, low-res jpegs make the effect even worse, since small details get obscured by the jpeg compression. The original slides reveal more detail, but even then some of the crosshairs are obscured.
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:42 AM Post #389 of 468
Yup, that's it.

I'll illustrate it with a personal photo. This is obviously a colour photo, but the basics are the same.

F1000018.jpg


In my picture above, and possibly also in the moon pictures there is a bit of lens flare, which also contributes in making bright areas 'expand'.
 
Jul 19, 2009 at 1:52 AM Post #390 of 468
Quote:

Originally Posted by limpidglitch /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yup, that's it.


Here's another one from a shuttle flight with the same phenomenon - you can see the crosshairs fade out over the brightest white clouds:
http://web.archive.org/web/200210020...challenger.jpg
 

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