[Bob]

Hello,
If you had about $3000 to spend on a 2-channel speaker system (excluding source) for listening to CDs how would you spend the money. Since I already have a nice CD player I will use it in the new setup. I have been contemplating some Norh SM6.9s and some mod-ed Norh Le-amps or possibly some Paradox 1s from GR-Research + a sub (possibly Adire Audio’s Rava Sub) and a tube amp. I am having a real hard time deciding on tube or solid state. I am also having a hard time deciding on a Pre-amp. The speaker world is much more daunting than the headphone world. There are just soooo many choices for a speaker system. Also, there are no hi-fi stores in my local area so auditioning is going to be difficult. If you guys can think of a really great system that comes in below $3000 that would be great too. I am not sure what the price point is in a speaker system where the diminishing return thing really starts kicks in. Thanks for any help in advance

 

[dhwilkin]

LOL, still trying to decide, eh?

That Norh combination (SM 6.9 + LeAmps) is supposed to be excellent. I wish the SM 6.9s had been out when I had bought my system. BTW, I have the Adire Rava sub as well. I love the looks, very classy, not a rough edge anywhere, and it does a good job musically as well. Depending on how much "oompth" you want to feel, you might want to look at one of the Rava's bigger brothers as well. Personally, unless you go w/ big floorstanders, I'd get a sub w/ any of those speakers you're considering. They might not need it, but anytime you can free up some of the workload for the speakers, do it.

Me, I'm going to eventually get an Odyssey Stratos amp. I like the idea of being able to upgrade it eventually to a mono, and I like the looks better as well. Far as pre-amp... right now, I have no idea. Norh's working on the ACA2, but when that'll come out is anybody's guess. Maybe you should look for tube pre-amps right now, should be a good combination. I hear the Bottlehead Foreplay is decent, but it's in kit form.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Spend about half of your budget on a pair of Magnepan 1.6s. Then spend what you have left on preamp & power amp. Tubes or solid state is up to you, but I'd recommend solid state for the Maggies.

 

[MacDEF]

Personally (and I'm being honest here -- I've actually thought about the "$3000 system" myself

), I would get:

Creek 5350SE integrated amp ($1500)
Triangle Titus speakers ($500)
Good stands ($200-$300)
A good sub (~$500)

That puts you right at around $3000 (probably less -- those are the SRPs, so you can surely find them for less).

 

[Braver]

Mac, your head is slowly fading away!

ahem, sorry for the interrution..

 

[raymondlin]

Spending $3000 and you can't audition? I smell disaster coming!

If you really can't audition, then I think using a magazine's review would be a better way to get a system then someone's personal opinon. Try to get loads of different magazine and the one with a blind group test are the best, try to get your hands on HiFi Choice HiFi News & Hifi +. There all excellent in their own right, HiFi + have more up market stuff, we are talkign about $3000 just for the arm for a Turntable but they have anything $500 up.

What HiFi magazine are only good for starter stuff, and they keep changing their mind, one month a CD player can have 5 star and it's the best CD player since man landed on the moon, then next month it's lost a star just because there's another CD player out that's sounds a bit different.

Stick to what you know (character of sound), if you like your music bright. Metal Tweeter speakers will give you that detail sound but often with a bright edge. But you can smooth it out with a well partner amp, like Arcam. Naim stuff are great with rock, but some find it too harsh and clinical.

Marantz stuff are generally are sweet and detail, read as much as you can before deciding. The best route however is probably 2nd hand, for $3000, you can get a system costing $5000 when new, and you'll be in Krell, Audio Research..... territory.

For speaker I seriously recommend PMC FB1, you won't need a Sub! amp wise, it's your choice since the FB1 are very easy to drive, but quality is very important.

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally posted by MacDEF Personally (and I'm being honest here -- I've actually thought about the "$3000 system" myself ), I would get: Creek 5350SE integrated amp ($1500) Triangle Titus speakers ($500) Good stands ($200-$300) A good sub (~$500) That puts you right at around $3000 (probably less -- those are the SRPs, so you can surely find them for less).

MacDEF, I've thought seriously about a $3000 system too. Unfortunately, my recommendations for amplification aren't as well considered as yours -- I'm still up in the air on preamps -- and have had little chance to do listening tests with various choices. I do know I want separates as opposed to an integrated, though -- I'd like the flexibility of swapping out power amps and preamps as I see fit.

The one thing that has me shaking my head is that you're recommending $1500 worth of amplification mated to a $500 small-enclosure dynamic box speaker. Now I can appreciate that Stereophile really loves these speakers, and that they perform better than just about anything else out there in the same price range -- but have you actually heard them compared to a good planar/ribbon speaker like the Magneplanars?

I can't help thinking that no matter how wonderful they are, they're still a small box speaker. My exposure to a good planar speaker with ribbon tweeters (the Maggies) has spoiled me forever. For anything other than heavy metal, hip-hop, or really hard rock, round speaker drivers are just... um... wrong.

I'd recommend the Martin-Logan hybrid electrostatics, but that would make a $3000 budget look like chump change. The Maggies are my holy grail for any system budget above $1000 and below $5000.

 

[Audio-Me]

Bob - glad to hear that another has taken a right step into hi-fi speaker crusade.

2.1 stereo speaker system with a nice tube amp is the best way to go IMO. =)

I wouldn't recommend buying anything over $1000 without trying it out first. But here are some you might want to take into consideration.

Integrated tube amp (no preamp needed): Antique Sound Lab MG SI 15 DT (haven't tried it, but want one, hehe)
http://www.divertech.com/mgsi15dt.html
*drool*

Solid state: Harman Kardon PA 2000 or Rotel RA-1060
http://www.harmankardon.com/product....%202000&sType=
http://www.rotel.com/products/ra1060.htm
The Harman Kardon is more detailed while the Rotel is smoother which has a nice warm sound to it.

Speakers: Infinity IL60
http://www.infinitysystems.com/homea...s=INL&Status=C
These are the speakers that I use. These have built in 500watt 12" subwoofers, so two of these should be quite suffice. =)

Celestion C2
http://www.celestion.com/products/english/c2.htm
You'll want the C6-S subwoofer that goes along with them.

Athena Technologies S-3 with P3 subwoofer. (You might want stands for these)
http://www.athenaspeakers.com/1_speak/s3_main.html
http://www.athenaspeakers.com/1_speak/p3_main.html

Vienna Acoustics Haydn
http://www.sumikoaudio.com/Haydn.htm

B&W DM605 S2
http://big-screen.de/B&W_600_Series_2.htm

Paradigm Monitor 9 w/ PS-1200 subwoofer
http://www.paradigm.com/Website/Site...nitorSpecs.htm
http://www.paradigm.com/Website/Site...PS_Series.html

Have fun.

 

[MacDEF]

Quote:

Originally posted by Russ Arcuri The one thing that has me shaking my head is that you're recommending $1500 worth of amplification mated to a $500 small-enclosure dynamic box speaker.

A couple things:

For space reasons, I would rather have small speakers with a sub than larger speakers. From a sound standpoint, many people feel that small speakers are able to produce a better soundstage because of the smaller effects that smaller cabinets have on the sound. They also generally have much better mids and treble because (on a good pair) the money went into those drivers instead of trying to make an enclosure that can produce good bass. I can tell you that my current setup (NHT SuperZeros and NHT sub) produces better sound than any "full-size" speakers I've had the chance to listen to in the same price range.

As for the Triangles, these tiny things are *amazing*!

Not just my opinion, and Stereophile's; every person I've talked to who has heard them has said the same thing -- best sound they've heard under $1000, and better midrange and treble than a lot of speakers much more expensive than that. So I think looking at the price of $500 is misleading.

Finally, some people feel that you should spend "x" amount or "x" percentage on speakers relative to your amp -- I disagree. I don't think there is a hard and fast rule when it comes to these things. Whatever component is of "inferior" quality is going to be the weakest link in your system. If your speakers are much better than your amp, then the amp is going to hold you back, and vice versa. If you have a great amp and great speakers, but a mediocre source, then you'll never see what your system can do. At the same time, if you're looking at future expansion, you don't want to "buy down" to the weakest component. I think the Creek 5350SE amp is a great amp that will make the Triangles sing; the Triangles are high enough in quality that if you bought something cheaper/lower than the Creek, you would be able to hear the differnce. At the same time, the Creek is also a level or two above the Triangles in terms of what it can really do -- so you'll have some room to grow if you ever decide to upgrade your speakers.


Quote:

I can't help thinking that no matter how wonderful they are, they're still a small box speaker.

I'm a big fan of "small box speakers." In my experience, they give you MUCH better detail, midrange, and soundstage than larger speakers at the same price point, so I would rather spend all my money on a smaller speaker that gives me higher quality sound but is lacking at the low end, than spend it on a more "full-range" speaker that isn't as good. Because the full-range speaker is at is peak -- it's done. With smaller speakers that excels at the highs and mids, I can later buy a well-matched sub that elevates their sound well past the full-range model. In this case, I would put the Triangles and a $500 sub that is matched well up against any $1000 full-range speaker.


Quote:

My exposure to a good planar speaker with ribbon tweeters (the Maggies) has spoiled me forever. For anything other than heavy metal, hip-hop, or really hard rock, round speaker drivers are just... um... wrong.

Hmmm... I agree that planar/electrostatic speakers usually sound great, but I also think that for the same money you can generally find something that sounds as good, or almost as good, in the treble/midrange, but also is able to produce some semblance of bass

To me, planar vs. moving coil is the speaker equivalent of tubes vs. solid state

 

[chych]

Quote:

The one thing that has me shaking my head is that you're recommending $1500 worth of amplification mated to a $500 small-enclosure dynamic box speaker.

C'mon, this is MacDEF, who listens to KSC-35s out of his Headroom Max

Then again, if you look at headphones and amps, there is even more of a discrpencay between amps and transudcers...

 

[Audio-Me]

Quote:

Originally posted by chych C'mon, this is MacDEF, who listens to KSC-35s out of his Headroom Max

OMG, LOFL!!!

 

[Russ Arcuri]

MacDEF -- I don't think I made myself clear in my last post. I wasn't trying to question the merits of a small box vs. a big box; how many times have you seen me recommend the Paradigm Atoms or Titans? They're small box speakers, and I think they're great. Mated to a decent sub, the Atoms are the best sounding full-range speaker system I've heard for less than $600. Without the sub, they're absolutely the best sounding speaker system I've heard under $200, though they're missing a true bottom end.

Also, I'm not adhering to any kind of cost formula here. I understand that the Triangles are supposed to sound a lot better than their cost would indicate. (Of course, you did go on to explain why cost "rules" actually make a lot of sense, but that's irrelevant to this discussion, I think.)

What I was really getting at was this: due to design, there's no possible way that the Triangles are going to sound better than the Magnepan 1.6s. No, I haven't heard the Triangles, but once again I'm going to point out that they're a dynamic box speaker (the design problem). Take that same integrated amp and A/B between the Triangles and the 1.6s; I'd be willing to bet 8 out of 10 people are going to pick the Maggies. Only those who want to hear heavy metal/hip hop are going to pick the Triangles, and probably only if they're mated to a decent sub.

In the end my argument actually has little to do with money, and lots to do with design. I've heard both high-end dynamic box speakers (in the same league as the Triangles or better) and high-end planars with ribbon tweeters. As I said before, the planars/ribbons have simply spoiled me -- I seriously doubt I'll ever buy a box speaker again, except maybe for home theater. And even that's debateable.

Personally, I'd even take the $550 Magnepan MMGs over the Triangles. The MMGs don't have the kind of low end that the 1.6s have, but then again the Triangles don't dip too deeply either. I'm debating with myself right now whether to save up enough money for 1.6s ($1500) or just go ahead and get the MMGs for $550, and mate them to a sub I already have (currently sitting unused). It's a question of diminishing returns again -- The 1.6s don't sound subjectively 3 times better than the MMGs -- the midrange and treble are almost the same.

I think it's nuts that anyone with $3000 to spend won't at least audition the Maggies. -- the MG 12s ($950) and 1.6s ($1500) are both FAR better than anything else that costs less than $3000, IMO. And if he doesn't have a Magnepan dealer anywhere nearby, he can order the MMGs factory-direct with a 60 day no-questions return policy.

 

[dhwilkin]

Quote:

raymondlin said... If you really can't audition, then I think using a magazine's review would be a better way to get a system then someone's personal opinon. Try to get loads of different magazine and the one with a blind group test are the best, try to get your hands on HiFi Choice HiFi News & Hifi +.

A magazine review IS somebody's personal opinion. Professionals can describe the sound differently than another person would, they're far from infallible. You're also limiting your selection if you only consider what's reviewed in magazines. As far as the blind test thing, I've read some of those. I've yet to see one where everyone described the sound the same way, or liked the same equipment. It's still just people's opinions... people who's musical preferences and hearing quirks I don't know, I might add. At least w/ suggestions here, you have a general idea of what a person's biases & preferences are.

Besides, he's putting together an entire system, sans cdp. Unless he finds an extremely nice store who'll let him do a home audition w/ all that equipment, he might as well not bother anyways. The store environment (room, setup, cdp, supporting equipment) will be much different than in his home, and the system in the store will probably sound very different than in his home.
Quote:

raymondlin said... The best route however is probably 2nd hand, for $3000, you can get a system costing $5000 when new, and you'll be in Krell, Audio Research..... territory.

Agreed, if you can buy used.
Quote:

chych said... C'mon, this is MacDEF, who listens to KSC-35s out of his Headroom Max

LOL, good call, chych!

 

[dhwilkin]

Quote:

Russ Acuri said... In the end my argument actually has little to do with money, and lots to do with design. I've heard both high-end dynamic box speakers (in the same league as the Triangles or better) and high-end planars with ribbon tweeters. As I said before, the planars/ribbons have simply spoiled me -- I seriously doubt I'll ever buy a box speaker again, except maybe for home theater. And even that's debateable.

Russ, I remember an old thread over at AA, asking if anybody had actually gone back to dynamic speakers, after having good electrostatic or ribbon setups (many including Maggies). There were quite a few people who ended up preferring dynamic. And there's the issue of the traditionally tiny sweet-spot. So it's not a given that Bob would prefer ribbons. He might, but then again he might not. Maybe Bob wants to move more than a few inches while listening?

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally posted by dhwilkin There were quite a few people who ended up preferring dynamic.

Oh, I know there are people who prefer dynamic. I'm just not one of them. Quote:

And there's the issue of the traditionally tiny sweet-spot. So it's not a given that Bob would prefer ribbons. He might, but then again he might not. Maybe Bob wants to move more than a few inches while listening?

The Maggies' sweet spot is not quite as tiny as people pushing dynamic speakers like to pretend it is. Besides, it's not like the music disappears when you're outside the sweet spot -- it's just not as sweet

But then again, any decent speaker is going to have a sweet spot. The quality diminishes off-center with the Triangles too, I'm sure.

Besides, I didn't say Bob would definitely like the Magnepans better. I said I thought it was nuts if he didn't audition them.