[lebomb]

I keep hearing IEMs with deep low bass described as muddy.  I then hear that some IEMs that have NO BASS what so ever to me are said to have a balanced bass sound.  What?  I have a very good audio system in my car and without the sub I have (probably called muddy) in there........it would sound life less and I would be missing a whole octave of sound.  Dont the best home theaters have deep, powerful bass?  The same as live concerts?  I would just like to be educated on this.  Personally, If I dont hear a powerful low end, its just not very good overall sound.  To me the bass should be as powerful as the mids and highs.  So back on point.  What would one describe as muddy?  When I read that an IEM has some low end, not much, but its there and its considered good bass (this is a fail IMHO), but an IEM with deep low end is described as muddy.  Im a newbie to IEMs, so please dont flame me out. 

 

[David58117]

It really depends what you listen to.  If you're into styles where exaggerated bass is a plus, then you probably won't mind or notice the muddy-ness, but it is there.  The difference between you and us, is that we're looking for clarity in the lows, we want to hear accuracy, clarity, the exact sound that that bass/kick drum produces...not something added to color the sound and make it deeper.  Those shenanigans get in the way of the sound spectrum, and covers up detail that we want to hear. 
 
You said you want the bass "as powerful as the mids and highs" - but that's not what you're getting.   

 

[Bennyboy71]

People who want bass with everything probably insist on tomato ketchup in Michelin starred restaurants. Sometimes you just gotta respect the recipe man.

 

[ethan961]

It seems that ordinary consumers like megabass and audiophiles like a more refined sound. That doesn't mean it has to be light on bass, but it means that they are appreciative of lesser amounts. I'm one of those guys that likes a balanced sound (which you don't like) because it represents the source truer than something with a bass hump or a treble spike.
To each is own is how it goes.

 

[maverickronin]

I'll admit to being a bass head, but most people around here are in the treble head camp.  They don't like bass at all and seem to think anything that's actually has response down to 20Hz is too much, even if it's at the same level as 1khz.  I find it mildly hilarious when the treble heads describe a 'phone with flat response down to 20Hz bassy, and hail something that's down 7 or more db at 20hz as a paragon of neutrality.
 
An example of muddy bass would be something like a mini sub from a cheap 2.1 system or a cheap car subwoofer.  The kind thing that turns everything below 120hz or so a single droning thump.  Tight bass on the other hand would be like a good 15" subwoofer in a large sealed box, with kilowatt worth of amp behind it.  Tight, impactful, and defined.
 
Some of the treble heads like to denigrate the bass heads and compare them people who drive one note boom cars.  Most of them won't admit it, or actually think that less bass is actually neutral.  I'll actually admit I'm a bass head though.  I like more than than is neutral.  As long as its tight and defined, the more the better.  I like my music to move me both literally and figuratively.  I just don't pretend its anything more than personal taste.
 
Which IEMs are you talking about by the way?

 

[kingpage]

Go in an audio shop and ask for the cheapest subwoofer for a listen, if you have a alright car subwoofer you should be able to tell what muddiness is. Or instead you could try tuning the sound of your music with an equilizer/EQ, push the the all frequencies at and below 125Hz (experiment with different threshold levels) all the way up. I think that's the easiest way to get an idea of how it sounds like despite the exaggeration.
 
Some of you keep refering to bassheads and trebleheads, yet you have left out the neutralheads

 

[mvw2]

Deep bass is not muddy.  Deep bass presented poorly is muddy.  Big difference.
 
There are earphones with muddy bass, low or high frequency.  There are earphones with clean, well controlled and detailed bass, low and high frequencies.
 

 

[kingpage]

Not only will the bass accented if EQed, with most speakers it should also be muddy since they can't really reproduce the added bass properly. That's why I said all the way up. With some expensive systems, this might not work though.
 
I should have made that clear as well. Thanks.
 
Just ignore the added bass (quantity), and focus on the difference in quality of the bass.

 

[Anaxilus]

Quote:

What would one describe as muddy?  

Muddy bass would veil the texture and detail of that frequency.  Sloppy bass would encroach on other frequencies and lack the speed to be accurate.  I've listened to quite a few prize winning SQ competition cars.  90% of the car audio world is populated by muddy and sloppy bass.  I tend to prefer 8 inchers for their speed and accuracy.  I have heard a 10 inch MTX competition spec'd sub that was amazing quick and accurate for its size.  Don't think they make it anymore.  Probably wasn't sloppy enough to meet demand.  As for IEM's there is less forgiveness for sonic inadequacies because the sound shoots right to your brain.  
 
FYI, many people that claim to like 'flat' or 'neutral'  signatures are used to a monitor type of sound.  This does not necessarily mean natural as you hear the world.

 

[maverickronin]

Quote:

 tend to prefer 8 inchers for their speed and accuracy.  I have heard a 10 inch MTX competition spec'd sub that was amazing quick and accurate for its size.  Don't think they make it anymore.  Probably wasn't sloppy enough to meet demand.

What are the resonant frequencies of those little subwoofers?  I can't imagine it would be very low unless it's an unconventional design, or am I missing something?  I like my 20hz kick.

 

[Ypoknons]

You just have to figure out neutrality and naturalness for yourself. I always keep coming back to neutral - too much bass and it gets all over the vocals, guitars and whatever else is in the mids, but too much treble and vocals lack the body they should. I'm not that picky though, as long as a pair of headphones doesn't deviate too far I'm fine. For example, the triple.fi are not neutral in my book, the mids are a bit recessed but it's fine, it's not a massive deviation and I enjoy it with some genres. The SE530 has a noticeable treble rolloff, but again, it's fine. 
 
Yes, I do think some people just have bad taste in FRs, or worse, try to tell you a particular FR is super neutral when really it's not, but it's cool. There is some variation from person to person, and I'm hardly in a position to tell others how to enjoy their music. You do have to be careful about reviewers and impressions, smoke out their preferences by seeing what they say about headphones you've also owned and what genres they like. 

 

[radioactive28]

To answer the TS' original question of what is muddy, it's when the bass encroaches into the territory of mids and highs, robbing the sound of its rightful clarity and detail. I've always thought of the idea visually as ink smeared by water.
 
You can have lots of bass in the sound without losing clarity, but I believe that usually comes at a cost: put more effort into good design or use more power, although the latter doesn't always work.
 
Mass-market ear/headphones usually can't do deep bass well, and try to make up for it by increasing the bass volume to achieve that thump-thump-thump feeling, which is what most people really care about. However, that tends to end up making the sound muddy.
 
As to the quantity of bass, it's really just a preference, and influenced by the subjective definition of balance or neutrality. Waveform at digital XdB (flat), or perceived volume of XdB across the frequency spectrum (equal loudness flat), or something else?

 

[Prog Rock Man]

I suspect most bass players and drummers would prefer bass to be clear and detailed and not just an indistinguishable thump noise. I also suspect that most bands would prefer the bass player and drummer to provide the beat and depth to the sound, rather than dominating it. I doubt any musician or even DJ playing to a rave would want distorted thumps to represent the bass. As mentioned above, the only group who seem to accept that that kind of noise are the car fraternity.

 

[Ypoknons]

Oooops, I forgot about muddiness! It could be a frequency response thing, like radioactive28 said, a mid-bass bump killing everything else. Unbearable on a lot of rock songs, really. Or it could be a headphone driver agility problem, the headphone's diaphragm overshooting or being too slow when it expands to reproduce bass, that causes muddiness. A good headphone diaphragm, controlled by a competent amp, should produce good, clean bass, just as recorded, even if the headphone's FR is slanted in favor of bass. (edit) Of course, bad/poorly controlled drivers + bass bump FR is a outright disaster, (edit2) although kind *is* what half the world's kids listen to.
 
That said, driver agility (aka speed) is rarely a problem with a decent balanced armature IEM, but then there's also the problem of crossover networks and amps; I'm not familiar with that problem at all.

 

[mvw2]

 
Quote:

 I tend to prefer 8 inchers for their speed and accuracy.

Incorrect.
 
I can show you a very muddy 6.5" woofer and a very crisp and detailed 15" woofer.  Size means jack squat.
 
Also when you actually start looking at output capability in low frequency reproduction, like the actual science of it and the need to move lots of air, smaller subwoofers become completely worthless devices outside of arrays.  Even a ported 8" or 10" offers so little output capability in the lower frequencies.  The only saving grace is cabin gain and hopefully using those tiny drivers in a equally tiny car.
 
In terms of SQ cone area >> exucrsion, and that means bigger is better.  This simply has to do with the linearity of the motor.  Low excursion = linear range.  It means you can run a 15", 18" or several of them over a small movement range and get very, very accurate results.  It's also why a number of SQ designed subwoofers are geared very high and pretty much require ported unless shoved in a really tiny car with super high cabin.
 
I'm not trying to be mean to you.  It's just science.