[DrewWinters]

I am building a new audio system from scratch. I don't live in an area where I can easily audition both (although a local HiFi Buys may carry the Pioneer). I am looking at either a used DV8400 or a new Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi for around $1,000. For now, the source will be running to a yet-to-be-determined headphone amp which will be powering my new HD650's; which I am currently breaking in using a Total Bithead with my computer as source. Anyway, this setup will eventually grow into a home theater setup as well.

Are there other equivalent players that I should consider over these? I know that Denon and Sony make players around this area but I don't know much about them and reading the thousands of posts of this forum is making my head swim... I need guidance! I have only setup "nice" systems for other people before and am only just heading into audiophile teritory. I am espeically new to headphones (I figured this would make a great place to start though since headphones offer a much greater value in sound quality - i.e. these $350 headphones sound alot better than $350 worth of speakers).

I despise "trial-and-error" schemes for finding the right equipment and I don't like buying something cheap now to replace with something better later. I want to get it right the first time around and be pleased for years to come. I've accomplised this with most of my major pruchases in the past and while I know that's hard to do with audio because it is so subjective, that is my goal. Anyway, I would covet any guidance you can give me! TIA

EDIT: I am guessing that neither of these players support HDCD, since neither lists supporting it - right? Is it worth trying to find one that does - since quite a few CD's seem to be HDCDs. ??

 

[Welly Wu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewWinters I am building a new audio system from scratch. I don't live in an area where I can easily audition both (although a local HiFi Buys may carry the Pioneer). I am looking at either a used DV8400 or a new Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi for around $1,000. For now, the source will be running to a yet-to-be-determined headphone amp which will be powering my new HD650's; which I am currently breaking in using a Total Bithead with my computer as source. Anyway, this setup will eventually grow into a home theater setup as well. Are there other equivalent players that I should consider over these? I know that Denon and Sony make players around this area but I don't know much about them and reading the thousands of posts of this forum is making my head swim... I need guidance! I have only setup "nice" systems for other people before and am only just heading into audiophile teritory. I am espeically new to headphones (I figured this would make a great place to start though since headphones offer a much greater value in sound quality - i.e. these $350 headphones sound alot better than $350 worth of speakers). I despise "trial-and-error" schemes for finding the right equipment and I don't like buying something cheap now to replace with something better later. I want to get it right the first time around and be pleased for years to come. I've accomplised this with most of my major pruchases in the past and while I know that's hard to do with audio because it is so subjective, that is my goal. Anyway, I would covet any guidance you can give me! TIA EDIT: I am guessing that neither of these players support HDCD, since neither lists supporting it - right? Is it worth trying to find one that does - since quite a few CD's seem to be HDCDs. ??

DrewWinters:

Boy am I sure glad you posted this thread because I want to help you!

I own the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi and I have built a dedicated headphone system around it. First, there are plenty of alternative universal DVD players to be had on the market. If you will wait until the fourth quarter of 2004, then there will be even more such as the Denon DVD 2910, 3910, and much anticipated 5910. There will also be more sub $500 USD universal DVD players including the Samsung HD-941, Pioneer DV-578, and Onkyo CD-802 Carousel Universal DVD Player. The third and fourth quarter of 2004 will usher the most number of universal DVD players to the market at all price points.

The Marantz DV-8400 has been very well reviewed. Go to http://www.ecoustics.com and do a search for that model to find some professional and consumer reviews. I have not auditioned it yet but I may get a chance next week.

The Denon DVD 2900 is also a contender. I actually owned it for a period of approximately three and a half months. It ain't bad but you can do better with the more recent technological advances effecting the universal DVD player concept. It has a very dry, neutral, and clean sound to it. DVD-Audio is spectacular; in fact, it is by far the best format it plays. Red Book CD is okay. SA-CD does not sound remarkably better than DVD-Audio though. I think it is due to the fact that it down converts a pure DSD signal to PCM. You don't want that in a universal DVD player because it will make SA-CD sound no better than hi-rez Red Book CD. However, there is no way to make sure that any particular universal DVD player does not down convert a pure DSD signal to PCM except to audition it and let your ears decide. Try putting it up against a pure SONY SA-CD player and let your ears decide whether the universal DVD player in question is doing justice to the format.

The Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi has been a joy to own for me personally. I'm sure you have read up about its' specs. It has a warm sound that is emotionally involving and satisfying. It also has a very digital and hi-rez sound to it. No point in denying it. If you come from an analog background, then perhaps you should move on. If you grew up in the digital age, then perhaps this is just the ticket for you. Technology wise, it is on the bleeding / leading edge. Very few universal DVD players can match up to it. Video wise, it's beautiful with rich colors and sharp definition. A very involving film like picture quality to it is indeed the case.

If you do some searches for the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi within Head-Fi, then I'm sure you will come across some of my impressions and informal reviews. I'll be posting a review of it in its stock form by August 31st, 2004. After I send it to ModWright LLC for mods, then I will post another review in October.

Until then, take care. If you have any questions, then please feel free to ask me by sending a private message. We like to help each other especially when it comes to gear recommendations based on real ownership experiences.

 

[DrewWinters]

Well I heard the DV-47ai w/ a B&K pre-amp and amp and Martin Logan electrostatics. Very nice. Miles Davis in 5.1 on SACD.... mmmmm....

In general, I'm suspicious of advice from someone that wants to sell me something... but since the salesman had neither of the products I was looking for, I'll give him some credit: he said he preferred the DV59-AVi over the DV-8400 because he felt the DV-8400 was a little harsh, but that he hadn't compared them on identical systems. He also said the video quality on the Pioneer was FAR better. Would anyone else agree with that accessment? I would much rather have a smooth, but less accurate, source over a more accurate, but harsh, source. I'm not using this for commercial audio mixing or something where I need it perfectly accurate - I want it to sound good!

The DV-8400 does not have Legato Redbook upsampling though, right? Is that effective enough to be worth considering?

So I am leaning towards the Pioneer right now, since I can't come up with a reason to choose the Marantz over it...

Pioneer Elite DV59-AVi
Pros: Smoother Sound (?)
Cheaper
Features - HDMI, Legato Pro, i-Link
Better Video Quality (?)
More stable according to AVS Forum

Cons: Doesn't say "Marantz" on it...?

What would I be giving up if I went with the Pioneer? I'm sure I'll be happy with either - since either will be leaps and bounds past my computer CD/DVD drive!

My intention was the pick the source and then try to pick the headphone amp. I'm not doing this backwards am I?

Thanks again!

 

[Welly Wu]

DrewWinters:

Nice to see you came back! Did you do that search in Head-Fi? Here are some other place where you can find out more about the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi and Marantz DV-8400:

http://www.audioasylum.com
http://www.avsforum.com
http://www.audioholics.com
http://www.ecoustics.com
http://www.audiocircle.com
http://www.head-fi.org

Yes, you are correct in saying that the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi is not necessarily the most accurate source component in terms of reproducing both audio and video content. It trades accuracy for a more emotionally involving sound and picture. In terms of "giving up" this for that, I would say that you should do your research more. Technically, this specific player is giving you more bang for your buck with the HiBit / Legato PRO Red Book CD upsampling and the Mitsubishi MPEG 14bit/216MHz video DAC with the T-Rex internal video scaler through HDMI.

All of the reviews that I read about the Marantz DV-8400 essentially suggest that it is a more accurate and less forgiving source component. It is great for classical and jazz music and the video is terrific because it gets color / hue / saturation, etc. dead on.

If you said that you aren't using it for recording or mixing, then I think that the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi is a better buy for your needs. I've owned it for the better part of about five months now and I can firmly say it's worth keeping. In fact, it is also worth modding too. Keep searching around and get back to me via PM or this thread when you have more questions. I'd be happy to help you without utilizing my retail sales experience on you.

 

[kunwar]

Well
I actually had the chance to audition the pioneer and the marantz side by side.
What I found was the Marantz is more musical to my ears, the instrument separation is a tad better on it.
the dvd playback was a drawon a 42" Sharp LCD display.
Both have the Legato Redbook Upsampling.
Here in Aus the Pioneer is not available under the model name DV59-AVi but something else.
I had the chance to listen to Norah Jones's Come Away With Me.
It sounded divine on both players .
the receiver used in the setup was a Marantz SR12S1 which had me drooling by itself.
Anyway, I cansafely say that either of these players will keep you happy for sometime to come.
If you can get the Pioneer cheaper then go for that because you can invest more on the giant plasma screen which I am sure will tempt you after you have got either of these.

 

[Welly Wu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar Well I actually had the chance to audition the pioneer and the marantz side by side. What I found was the Marantz is more musical to my ears, the instrument separation is a tad better on it. the dvd playback was a drawon a 42" Sharp LCD display. Both have the Legato Redbook Upsampling. Here in Aus the Pioneer is not available under the model name DV59-AVi but something else. I had the chance to listen to Norah Jones's Come Away With Me. It sounded divine on both players . the receiver used in the setup was a Marantz SR12S1 which had me drooling by itself. Anyway, I cansafely say that either of these players will keep you happy for sometime to come. If you can get the Pioneer cheaper then go for that because you can invest more on the giant plasma screen which I am sure will tempt you after you have got either of these.

Shoot, and all this time I thought I was talking to myself...

 

[DrewWinters]

I did finally find your posts about the Pioneer. I had somehow missed the five-page thread before. It was very enlightening!

I think I am going to aim at the Pioneer, unless someone else has an opinion otherwise - I am certainly open to listening for the next month or so! Right now I can get the Pioneer for just under 1000 brand new online. The Marantz is 1100 for a refurbished unit (unless someone knows of better prices somewhere...).

Yall have been a great help, thank you! It will be at least a month before I actually start buying anything else... I don't guess this model is going to be replaced anytime soon, since it seems to be rather new itself?

I guess now that I have to pick out which headphone amp to aim at as well... see ya in the amp section of the forum! Thanks again!

 

[Welly Wu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewWinters I did finally find your posts about the Pioneer. I had somehow missed the five-page thread before. It was very enlightening! I think I am going to aim at the Pioneer, unless someone else has an opinion otherwise - I am certainly open to listening for the next month or so! Right now I can get the Pioneer for just under 1000 brand new online. The Marantz is 1100 for a refurbished unit (unless someone knows of better prices somewhere...). Yall have been a great help, thank you! It will be at least a month before I actually start buying anything else... I don't guess this model is going to be replaced anytime soon, since it seems to be rather new itself? I guess now that I have to pick out which headphone amp to aim at as well... see ya in the amp section of the forum! Thanks again!

DrewWinters:

If you say you will buy a source component in about a month, then can you hold up until August 31st, 2004? I ask you this question because I am positively sure I will have my first formal review of the Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi in its' stock form published on line here and elsewhere.

By July 31st, 2004, I will send my stock source component to ModWright LLC for these modifications:

Pioneer Standalone Universal Truth Mod
Level II Transport Mod
Power Supply Upgrade Mod
LC Audio SuperClock X03 with Clock Supply Mod

It should be shipped back to me with a complete series of diagnoses and test to ensure the mods were done correctly by mid August 2004. By October 2004, I will publish another review of the modded Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi.

In any case, I would highly suggest that you pursue http://www.audiogon.com or http://www.videogon.com to see whether any stock or modded Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi used models are available for sale. Of course, check your potential seller for his or her credentials and try to establish direct contact before buying it!

 

[Orpheus]

a little off-topic question: is there any difference between the dv47ai and the dv59ai in terms of audio? it seems from the pioneer web page that the main differences are mostly in the video section--the 59ai has a much better dac for video.

anyway, the dv47ai is a little dissappointing to me. not in terms of sound--which it is perfectly fine in... but overall it's just not very cool. i got it after my philips 963sa, and i have to say, the philips is much more aesthetically appealing--the default screen is better, and it displays cd-text. the menus are much more friendly too. i was really surprised that the dv47ai doesn't support cd-text--i mean, what the heck, $1200 retail. gees. also, the manual doesn't even say what the heck these lame "legato filters" do... so i leave them off.

but performance wise, there's nothing that good in the used market right now. so, in that way, i'm happy.

but anyway, my point is, if the marantz is a competitor... i would strongly suggest you to play around with both, not just audition, to see if you'll like it. pure performance isn't the end-all of these kind of things.

 

[DrewWinters]

I'm not surprised it doesn't support CD-Text honestly.... why? Because of all my CD's only one or two even has CD-Text! I don't understand why in the world record companies wouldn't include CD-Text - it's not like it would cost them anything to include the information!

I'm not bothered by the aesthetics of either the Pioneer or the Marantz - nor am I overly thrilled by either. But the Denon, Sony, Philips and all the other comparable products I looked at seemed similarly neutrally aesthetic to me. I really the minimalist look of most high-end sources - but they are beyond my price range and probably way beyond my needs. I can't hear well enough to pick out the extremely minor differences among the very top-end systems usaully. Then again, I have heard VERY few high-end systems.

I will probably wait until around that time to purchase my source and amp Welly - unless an espcially good deal shows up. But from what I've read up until now, I doubt a more detailed review of the Pioneer from someone I already know likes it very much is going to convince me NOT to buy it

Incidently, the salesman told me that the DV-47Ai is about to be replaced. I know nothing about the replacement. Hmmm... could be worth looking into.

 

[Welly Wu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrewWinters I'm not surprised it doesn't support CD-Text honestly.... why? Because of all my CD's only one or two even has CD-Text! I don't understand why in the world record companies wouldn't include CD-Text - it's not like it would cost them anything to include the information! I'm not bothered by the aesthetics of either the Pioneer or the Marantz - nor am I overly thrilled by either. But the Denon, Sony, Philips and all the other comparable products I looked at seemed similarly neutrally aesthetic to me. I really the minimalist look of most high-end sources - but they are beyond my price range and probably way beyond my needs. I can't hear well enough to pick out the extremely minor differences among the very top-end systems usaully. Then again, I have heard VERY few high-end systems. I will probably wait until around that time to purchase my source and amp Welly - unless an espcially good deal shows up. But from what I've read up until now, I doubt a more detailed review of the Pioneer from someone I already know likes it very much is going to convince me NOT to buy it Incidently, the salesman told me that the DV-47Ai is about to be replaced. I know knowing about the replacement. Hmmm... could be worth looking into.

DrewWinters:

You can easily have a BRAND NEW Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi for under $950 USD including UPS / FedEx Ground Shipping in the current market.

However, here's something I just thought of that should give you food for thought: the third and fourth quarter of 2004 are coming. So are a slew of universal DVD players at all price points. I doubt Pioneer will release another flagship universal DVD player before 2005. So, I'm thinking that you can knock off an additional $50 - $100 USD from the current street price for the DV-59AVi once the newer universal DVD players hit the market.

It should at least give you pause to consider alternative options from Denon, Samsung, Onkyo, etc. Wait until September 2004. THAT will be the time to purchase either a new / used Pioneer Elite DV-59AVi at a substantial cost savings or you can investigate the newer crop of universal DVD players just hitting the market at that time.

Wait. Keep working. Save your money. Keep researching. Wait.

 

[DrewWinters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Welly Wu Wait. Keep working. Save your money. Keep researching. Wait.

That's easy to say when you are already sitting next to a fantastic system!

(Of course, that doesn't make it any less of good advice...)

 

[kunwar]

I personally prefer the Marantz because I have only had a positive experience with them.
The best part is that I can link it up to my receiver and use just one remote.
Now ain't that cool.

I am not sure if many other companies think of that when they design products.

 

[DrewWinters]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kunwar I personally prefer the Marantz because I have only had a positive experience with them. The best part is that I can link it up to my receiver and use just one remote. Now ain't that cool. I am not sure if many other companies think of that when they design products.

Can't the i-Link connection do that? Even if it cannot, it is not complicated to program a learning remote to control everything. My roomate in college had a learning remote that controlled his TV, DVD, Receiver and VCR - all of which were different brands.

 

[kunwar]

yes you can but by default on Marantz products, this is enabled by the manufacturer.
Those are some of the minute things that we do not notice at first on marantz products.