[acs236]

Quote:

Originally posted by JMT Man, I would love to see ELP stuff on SACD.

I'm curious, do you dislike DVD-A or do you not have a player?

 

[JMT]

Quote:

I'm curious, do you dislike DVD-A or do you not have a player?

Don't have DVD-A, just SACD. But a lot of ELP.

 

[acs236]

I wouldn't suggest getting a DVD-A player just for 1 album -- but this comes pretty close.

 

[elrod-tom]

Quote:

Originally posted by acs236 I wouldn't suggest getting a DVD-A player just for 1 album -- but this comes pretty close.

I would....it's the best recording I've heard yet of BSS. It literally blew me away.

What?? Pun?? Me??

 

[elambo]

Quote:

Originally posted by Czilla9000 It is probably a number of factors. But I am pretty certain that since even DSD recording need to at one point in time be converted to quasi-PCM, DVD-A is superior FOR NOW. Once a pure DSD bitsteam process comes out SACD should take the lead.

What is quasi-PCM? If the album master reaches the mastering house on analog tape it can be mastered to SACD without ever being converted to PCM.

For the record, one of the busiest mastering engineers in the business said that 60% of the albums he receives arrive on both digital and analog mediums, and others arrive only on analog. If the record company intends to release an album on SACD the engineer may tend to prefer the analog sources to master. That means there would be no need for more than half of all albums to be converted to PCM at any stage of the mastering process.

SACD vs. DVD-A continues, and will for a while. As everyone knows, the winner may not be the best (remember VHS vs. Beta), but the current best in terms of sonic quality, according to the majority of engineers, is SACD. That's where I'm putting my money.

 

[Czilla9000]

I got the Quasi-PCM idea here: http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/dvdavssacd/

Quote:

There are also challenges with DSD when it comes to digital signal processing. To handle DSP operations – necessary in the process of making most records, where mixing, level changes, EQ and compression often take place in the digital domain – the DSD signal must be decimated (turned into something very much like PCM), processed and then returned to the bitstream format. There is arguably little point in using DSD if you are going to turn it into something like PCM on the way to the master. It has also recently emerged that in the studio environment, DSD does not employ a "bitstream" at all, but rather a form of quasi-PCM, albeit at a very high sample rate, probably in order to allow DSP processing as described above. Some people have considered this a form of cheating. As a result of all this, it has been suggested that the primary application for "pure" DSD is for recordings in which the technique is essentially to capture a live performance and then edit it without the use of digital signal processing. This may be particularly possible in the classical field, and for other types of music where there is an actual performance to capture, but this only applies to about five percent of recorded music. The rest is created in the studio, multitracked, and reliant on a great deal of mixing, processing and other digital operations. It may be that for these types of recordings – i.e. most of the recordings that are carried out – PCM is more appropriate.

 

[dustinyo]

how would you Rate the redbook playback of this player?

do you think it would be a signifacant improvement to get an external DAC and use this as a transport?

 

[elrod-tom]

The redbook playback is not bad. It's supposed to be upsampled to 178k, with the SACD and DVD upsampled to 192k.

I'm using my MSB Gold Link III with redbook CD's, and there is no comparison. I don't think that means that the Pioneer DV47-Ai is chopped liver, by the way. It's just not as good as an external dac with upsampling and two pairs of parallel dac chips. I wouldn't have expected that it would be.

I would have no problem recommending it as a redbook cd player. Especially with mods from someplace like ModWright, I think that it could be even better. For really top end, however, an external DAC would be preferred

 

[woolbag]

Hi all, I surfed in on this thread and had to throw in my 2c...

I have a DV-S755ai which is the Asian version of the 47ai...

I've been playing it on and off for months, I possess a couple of DVD-A discs, and NO SACDs.

I hated the sound of this player when I got it. It was thin and reedy. Vocals had a harsh edge, instruments werent defined, and the stage might as well have been mono. I've played it on and off for 3 months with DVD and CD sources.

I dont have SACD's but every review I've read says the SACD playback isnt that flash. DVD-A is certainly pretty spectacular, but I havent spent time on critical listening. Im really posting on its redbook performance.

As stated above, I hated it, and perhaps I still dont TOTALLY respect it, but its now way better than it was. This thing needs a LONG burn-in. My casual listens over the past few months didnt release the sound. I just left it on disc repeat for a complete weekend last weekend, and the sound has taken a TOTALLY different character. Vocals are now crisp, and have some life. They're pretty laid back but nice and natural. Instruments have come out of the mess, and are defined. The stage has opened up.

I've been hating this player for so long, I cant believe the change in it. This thing is a damn good universal player.

That said, I dont have golden ears but I am ultra fussy, so either it might get itself modded or I'll get a dedicated redbook player....

On the subject of upsampling and conversion, I'm not convinced the Hi-Bit setting really does much for me. I'm not sure the positive effect on the sound isnt outweighed by the negatives. The standard setting on Legato Pro isnt a bad thing.

One thing I miss? I read somewhere an older model had a setting something like digital direct...wheres that gone? Well, its just gone. I hate the idea of processing getting in the road of my music as a general rule, and would like to have heard it.

 

[dustinyo]

i emailed ModWright and asked him about modding posibilities with this player. this is what he replied with...

Quote:

I would recommend our Universal Truth mod (not on our website yet), featuring our own tube analog stage for the Stereo outs. We also upgrade the power supply, MCH op-amps and coupling caps. Cost = $700 + shipping. This combination is good enough that you would NOT need a DAC. If you want to take the unit even further, we also offer optional Bybee filters at the analog outs ($170) and at the AC mains ($170). These make a significant improvement and installing four Bybee filters would still make the price of the mod only $1040 + shipping. Thanks and I look forward to hearin from you. Dan W.

 

[Dusty Chalk]

Quote:

Originally posted by gpalmer No, you can't get a digital SACD stream out of the 47Ai.

Actually, I recently read in one of the British music magazines that Sony approved one of the standards -- firewire, I think, will double-check -- and that Pioneer was going to add that in as a post-sale mod (don't remember if it was free or not).

That said, even the current version had a proprietary link that would pass the signal in the digital realm from their player to only their receiver, and yes, that was on DVD-A, SACD, as well as the usual CD and DVD-V formats (at least that's what I read). Quote:

Originally posted by elambo SACD vs. DVD-A continues, and will for a while. As everyone knows, the winner may not be the best (remember VHS vs. Beta)...

I know I'm repeating myself, but since this fallacy keeps getting repeated, I think the correction bears repeating as well. This is not a format war as has been the case previously (VHS vs. Beta, different quadraphonic systems). Never before has the exact samephysical hardware been used to read the different media (SACD uses the same laser technology as DVD), it's only in the format. It's like FAT vs. NTFS formatting -- once you have the software updated, it's easy to go from one to the other. Sure, there are additional processing issues -- purists will want the DSD stream to stay DSD, but other than that...In the future, all players will be universal (well, except for the "old school is the kool skool" seperatist die-hards), so the only issue will be, what label is the artist on?

 

[gpalmer]

I know SONY was using FireWire internally, but I hadn't heard they had accepted it as a standard, that would be great news!

Yup, you read that the 47Ai would pass the digital SACD signal, I saw that several times, but the truth is that it would not, it was a real blunder on their part that they had that in theri marketing brochures and left up for months on their web site. That would be a great mod from them.

 

[gpalmer]

BTW dustinyo, I would also check into the Superclock or LC Audio clock mods from ModWright. I believe Dan had enough problems getting the clocks he quit stocking them, but he still installs them if you buy them elsewhere.

 

[grohan]

It will be interesting to get some well recorded SACDs and than to do the DVDa comparo. I found the quality of SACDs to vary greatly, with a lot of old pop/rock material being quite mediocre[police and peter gabriel sacds are ok but not spectacular]...some of my nice sounding Sacds so far: fim/immortal chinese instruments, red rose/eliot fiskin playing bach and scarlati-direct dsd, rounder/alison krause-new favorite,diana krall-look of love, Ivan Fisher-Budapest festival-live direct dsd recording...

 

[Nightfall]

Quote:

Originally posted by JMT Man, I would love to see ELP stuff on SACD.

I second that wish. Cant wait to hear some ELP on SACD (assuming that ever happens).
The real issue is that no recordings are available in both formats so its impossible to judge qualitative differences in the comparative sound of the formats.
Dark Side of the Moon does indeed sound amazing on SACD, but how dow e know that isnt primarily because of the actual production of the recording used for the re-issue? Likewise with the ELP DVD-A that Elrod-Tom found spectacular. Is that due to DVD-A or the source employed in the remastering, or the remastering process itself?
Most recording engineers, producers and musicians that I have read interviews with seem to feel SACD is better, Neil Young being a notable exception who favors DVD-A.
As Tom noted, I dont think we have any real way to fairly gauge either format at the moment. Not to mention the sources playing the disks, as he also stated, may be a factor. Are there equally good SACD players and DVD-A players available?


JC