PINT pulled...

[tangent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jl123 The failure rate is not Tangent's or the designs fault.

Sorry, I disagree. I knew that the AD8397 does not like to be run in unity gain. I knew that it didn't have overcurrent protection. These two issues probably account for at least 80% of the failures.

I didn't release the design thinking that they'd still be problems. I tried to correct them in the three prototyping stages. When my latest prototype builds worked, I decided to release it. It turns out that my fixes just didn't have enough margin for the real world, though. We did need the "field trial" to find that out....now that we've got the results, I think the course of action is clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cire they should sound nearly identical, but the PINT has much higher floor noise.

No, not really. "Mini3fying" combines two unrelated changes.

One puts the output impedance devices -- ferrites usually -- outside the feedback loop. The method suggested by AMB and adopted universally as far as I can tell is to cut some traces on the board and mount components in a hacky way, but all you really have to do is use bead type ferrites on the output wires.

The other change lowers the noise floor, but you can do that without any of the above changes. It's shown on the second page of the PINT schematic, and it most certainly is not "Mini3fied". The second page of the PINT is relatively recent, but the instructions to do what is expressed there were in the PINT's parts selection guide from the start.

In fact, the info was on my site before the PINT was even available: I put up the new "cranky op-amps" article and the op-amp noise calculator before I released the PINT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by splaz Seems quite a few want them still. Tangent would you mind if boards were made ?

Now why would you want to go and do that? PINT v1.3 is a flawed design.

I'll think about doing one more run. Maybe. Qualified DIYers only. I'm only doing this because of all the yelling about how people still want these boards, despite the known flaws. I don't understand it, but then, I guess I don't need to understand it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kramer5150 I wonder if "commercial" Forum sponsors were complaining to that the amp is "Too Good".... and such?

You know, we're about at the 4th anniversary of the META42's introduction, and in those 4 years, I don't believe I've ever heard directly from any of the commercial manufacturers. Not once, positive or negative. And the only things I've heard from them indirectly are just commentary, no pressure of any kind.

There is no conspiracy to deprive you of PINTs. It's just physics.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Monkey Wonder if the Mint will make a brief comeback?

I never was thrilled with the MINT. It was without question my lowest-end PCB design, even below the META42. I'd hoped the PINT would be the way I could raise the performance bar on the low end. That's why, in this next version, I will be continuing on roughly the same path, not going back to the MINT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windchill Looking forward to anything Tangent comes up with.

Thank you! I would hope more people would just wait to see what I'm going to do about the problems before they insist on me making more flawed boards.

Scarcity is often correlated with high worth, but not in this case!

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent ... snip ... Thank you! I would hope more people would just wait to see what I'm going to do about the problems before they insist on me making more flawed boards. ... snip ...

If you don't mind, that statement deserved some emphasis. Personally, I am content to wait for the next great thing from you. No doubt, it will be worth it.

 

[69CamaroSS396]

Tangent, I don't want to debate your reasons for calling the MINT your "lowest-end PCB design". But I will say I enjoyed the two MINTs I assembled more so than any other I've done in my brief experience. I just wish I had a stash of the pcbs so I could pull one out now and then for the sheer enjoyment of the build.

 

[nysulli]

don't get me wrong tangent, i'm very much looking forward to your next design, if its something that can take down the PINT in terms of portability and performance, it'll be truely impressive, but, i do believe with the proper know-how and some forethought on the exact configuration, the pint can be made into a very rewarding build with few problems

 

[NeilR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent I'll think about doing one more run. Maybe. Qualified DIYers only. I'm only doing this because of all the yelling about how people still want these boards, despite the known flaws. I don't understand it, but then, I guess I don't need to understand it.

One of the most difficult things for me to learn to accept in the software biz was that it is better to just do something when customers demand it, no matter how stupid the idea seems to me. It took almost 10 years.

My customers are happier and I have less stress.

 

[n_maher]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent I would hope more people would just wait to see what I'm going to do about the problems before they insist on me making more flawed boards.

Tangent, I really hope you go this route rather than making more PINT boards. I for one would rather wait for something you feel is without flaw (or closer to it

) than to see you continue to produce something you're not happy with. I think I understand a bit how frustrating it is to see folks have problems building based on a board you designed. It's no fun. I hope other people understand that your motivations have their best interest in mind. Sure it leaves a bit of a hole in the portable DIY market but you can't always get what you want, right?

Best of luck with whatever comes next, I'll be there waiting

.

Nate

 

[fierce_freak]

On to waiting for Tangents latest and greatest...guess I'll go explore some other DIY fun-ness during the wait

 

[Filburt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent I'll think about doing one more run. Maybe. Qualified DIYers only. I'm only doing this because of all the yelling about how people still want these boards, despite the known flaws. I don't understand it, but then, I guess I don't need to understand it.

I'd really appreciate this, personally. While I realise you believe the PINT is flawed, the fact remains, for me anyhow, that it's one of the most satisfying portable amps I've used, and I'd like to have some spare boards both so I can re-do my AD8397/LM6172 PINT as it has been damaged by someone in my vicinity goofing around with it, and also 'just in case'.

That said, I have confidence in your ability to improve upon the design, and look forward to it. Your concerns and response seem reasonable to me, overall. However, I'd also rather not have one of my PINT configurations out of commission in the interim, and also would like to build a few other configurations during that period. I think I'm pretty qualified at this point to build these successfully, as are a few others here, and so I do think the limited run of some more boards may be a good comprimise overall.

 

[Heady]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilR One of the most difficult things for me to learn to accept in the software biz was that it is better to just do something when customers demand it, no matter how stupid the idea seems to me. It took almost 10 years. My customers are happier and I have less stress.

OT - ha ha, that's the lesson I am trying to learn now. It isn't easy to go against your professional opinion. But then he who pays the piper gets to call the tune, right?

 

[Filburt]

Well, tangent does this mostly for fun and our and his benefit, as I understand it, rather than just being some sort of straight business. So with this in mind, his decision probably makes a bit more sense. That said, my personal opinion is that the PINT was a great asset to the DIY community irrespective of the problems associated, so I *will* miss it. However, if the PINT has shown us anything, it's probably that tangent is capable of putting out high quality portable amp projects...so I do have some confidence in the future project he's working on

 

[NeilR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heady OT - ha ha, that's the lesson I am trying to learn now. It isn't easy to go against your professional opinion. But then he who pays the piper gets to call the tune, right?

Exactly! But it goes way beyond that. We are all infallible and no matter how open minded we try to be (or think we are) we are on a different side of the fence than our customers. It bugs me terribly to put out code that is imperfect or out of harmony with my systems (or in extreme cases somewhat nonsensical) and it is hard to step back from that. My customers could not care less. They have a need and they are not concerned with philosophical issues of perfection and harmony. They want something "good enough" to make their life a little better.

In the context of this situation, Tangent is in the same boat I am at times; his product is imperfect by his way of thinking, but many of his customers simply want a new project to build. Different sides of the fence.

In my case, I ordered a couple of Pint boards and lots of alternative parts mainly because of all the problems I read here. I wanted a challenge (something beyond stuff and play) and integral to that challenge was accepting the risk that my boards might never work. It even motivated me to pull the trigger on a scope purchase that I had been waxing over for some time. Different sides of the fence.

 

[Heady]

I already had respect for Tangent when I saw his site and ordered a Pimeta board and parts from him, his service is very professional. But this PINT episode has deepen my respect. And it's quite clear, he is doing this for the fun and community. Thanks Tangent.

 

[tangent]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilR One of the most difficult things for me to learn to accept in the software biz was that it is better to just do something when customers demand it, no matter how stupid the idea seems to me.

Software tends not to blow up expensive headphones, and when it self destructs, a restart usually fixes it.

I, too am a software developer by day, and if anything, I'm guilty with the PINT of treating it too much like software. We software developers get in the habit of just shipping the code, knowing we can update it in the field later. I can't send out a patch to people with broken PINTs; I can't ask them to reboot to fix blown chips.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt While I realise you believe the PINT is flawed, the fact remains, for me anyhow, that it's one of the most satisfying portable amps I've used

You know, your messages in particular have been more successful at swaying me than probably anyone else's. Why? Your agony thread is one of the biggest reasons I decided to pull the PINT. Despite all you've been through, you're still willing to build more? I gotta say, I didn't see that coming.

Quote:

However, if the PINT has shown us anything, it's probably that tangent is capable of putting out high quality portable amp projects.

Me, I'd say that it's shown -- in case anyone was unsure about this -- that I'm fallible.

Yeah, I know, send out a press release...

 

[NeilR]

Agony thread? Please give me a link. I don't recall any agony. If you are talking about my observation of the charging reg leakage, you seriously misread my point.

Regards,
Neil


Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent Software tends not to blow up expensive headphones, and when it self destructs, a restart usually fixes it. I, too am a software developer by day, and if anything, I'm guilty with the PINT of treating it too much like software. We software developers get in the habit of just shipping the code, knowing we can update it in the field later. I can't send out a patch to people with broken PINTs; I can't ask them to reboot to fix blown chips. You know, your messages in particular have been more successful at swaying me than probably anyone else's. Why? Your agony thread is one of the biggest reasons I decided to pull the PINT. Despite all you've been through, you're still willing to build more? I gotta say, I didn't see that coming. Me, I'd say that it's shown -- in case anyone was unsure about this -- that I'm fallible. Yeah, I know, send out a press release...

 

[dsavitsk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangent Software tends not to blow up expensive headphones, and when it self destructs, a restart usually fixes it.

I think you are underestimating the amount of damage bad software can do.

On topic, I don't particularly care if pints are available or not, but I think a note in the docs saying the AD opamp is unstable and only intended for advanced builders who can deal with that instability should be sufficient.