[Golden Ears]

It is a shot in the dark... but has anyone compared these combos?

I would be surprised if the Pico could win such a battle... but I have not heard the RME Fireface 800 yet.

 

[qusp]

hi there,

I'm new to this forum and I have caught the bug most definitely, I came here wanting to find some info on ETY6i's for my ipod. after 2 weeks of reading this forum researching my decision, I have ordered UE triples and i'm looking at a graham slee voyager or RSA hornet M with a redwine mod down the track

I haven't heard the pico or the FF800... but i'll go with the Fireface... I own the fireface 400 which has slightly better pre's but not quite as good D/A conversion as the FF800; mind you both are still excellent and you would be hard pressed to find better pre's and D/A in any interface bar APOGEE high end (forget digidesign); apart from dedicated high end 2 channel D/A from APOGEE, Benchmark DAC 1, PRISM, LAVRY etc. but we're talking gazillion $ angelsh^%T here. Add to that the great A/D conversion and rock solid drivers on the RME (not one kernal panic or driver related crash in the 3yrs ive owned it... on 24/7) and you have a winner. the pico may be a great portable amp with a DAC solution but it doesn't hold a candle to the RME gear IMHO... I mean its not even balanced is it?

My RME also tends to improve any digital source that is plugged into it due to its superior almost %100 jitter-free clocking. Another thing the PICO doesn't have... BNC wordclock

Oh.... and the fact that the FF400 is a 24bit/192k/hz

 

[Golden Ears]

Yes I too, have caught the instant wallet draining bug here as well. lol

Let me know if you want to sell your Fireface 400... but I think I'll go for the Fireface 800. The best sounding D/A I have heard was the Wadia digimaster algorithum. Pro audio used to have the dCS Elgar - which at one time won a few awards but IMHO sounded dreadful- and terribly terribly digitally dry.

I'm hoping the RME fireface 800 is leaps beyond a dCS Elgar.
Stereophile: dCS Elgar D/A processor

Which never lived up to the hype.

I also hope the fireface 800 sounds better than a Benchmark DAC because I am having this unit do double duty for pro audio DJ as well as high fidelity... hmmm maybe the $$$$ Apogees are better suited for that..but unfortunately out of the budget.

My hope is the fireface 800 might sound good enough to keep me from buying a Wadia 860 series Cd player all over again.

Balanced is better..but not always by a lot if the cables are short. Sometimes a great sounding RCA that is 1 meter or less can beat a more expensive balanced cable...YMMV

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Ears /img/forum/go_quote.gif Let me know if you want to sell your Fireface 400...

No chance.... I LOVE IT!!!!

haven't had a chance to A/B the DAC1/FF400 combo; so I can't give you a decent subjective/definitive answer to that. My mate's got one and while it is definitely a quality DAC; its perhaps a little clinical for my tastes. I prefer my FF.

I like things to sound 'RIGHT', but perhaps erring on the warmer side of 'RIGHT'; and by the sound of your negative comments on the Elgar, perhaps thats how you feel as well? As I make my music pretty much exclusively within LOGIC DAW with VI's and an ACCESS virus C rack I like to have a bit of flavor... not too much as to ruin the mix but just enough to keep me engaged in the music.

I got my triple.fi's in the mail 2 days ago and I haven't been able to take them off. They sound utterly fantastic

through my FF400; I didn't know you could get that sort of presence in IEMS. Now if I could only get my ipod to sound like that

maybe they will even save my neighbours from my KRK monitors and sub once in a while. Funnily enough; since I replied to you last time I have changed my mind on the RSA hornet and have ordered a Pico without the dac, as you already know, I have no need for the dac option. I don't have a laptop so it would only be techno duplication any Head-fi'ing I do at home will be through mac MAC and FF400. So by the time the pico is ready for delivery I should have had the IMODS done in order to take advantage of it. LOD is the only way to go; just chaining a good amp stage (pico) to a bad one (headphone out) seems a bit redundant to me.

Now for your solution... I think the FF (400 or 800) would be really well suited to your purpose. Its very stable (a must for live gigging), built like a tank (ditto), transportable from studio to location (even operates while disconnected from the computer), the mixer/router edit matrix ROCKS (even has an internal bounceback feature) very cool for sampling anything that passes through your computer

)) and sounds fantastic. IMHO it is right up there with the Apogee gear, maybe not with their topshelf rosetta stuff, but close.

Also in my situation I always prefer balanced gear if I can.... way too much computer gear (large CRT monitors and even a couple of old effects units (roland space echos) I know that quality shielded unbalanced cables can be decent, but quality XLR always wins for me.

What other gear do you use? and what sort of tunes do you spin/produce?

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Certainly the FireFace is a full-featured digital audio interface, so it has many features the Pico does not, as it is a straightforward device aimed at a much less broad field of usage.

However, I would be shocked if the FireFace on another level of performance from the Pico, purely in terms of sound quality as a 2-channel DAC. I have listened to a number of mid-level DAC's, some costing up to $2500 retail, which are, at best, no better than the Pico as a DAC. Being that there is a lot more in the FireFace than simply a DAC, I would be extremely skeptical that it would perform on or even close to the level of DCS or EMM Labs dedicated DAC's costing several times more.

I haven't read any user reports or reviews of the Fireface, but simple logic and knowledge of the market makes it relatively easy to determine where it likely stacks up, unless RME is putting magic pixie dust and ERS paper inside it.

The bottom line is that the Pico and Fireface are very different products designed for very different markets, with one similarity in that they both can be used as a 2-channel DAC. Comparing the two in the first place is a bit of a head-scratcher. I would not doubt the Pico's ability in such a comparison, however, simply because the RME device is fancier or more expensive.

 

[Golden Ears]

Well I am very curious. When it comes to High Fidelity Vs Pro audio to me it is almost like Solid State VS Tubes. The concepts evolved for different needs, but in the end the goal is the same. Just like inexpensive tube gear and inexpensive solid state have little in common- as you climb higher up the heap of diminishing margin returns- they tend to converge. Really great Solid State High End Gear and really great High End Tube Gear both sound fantastic and not all that different from each other. Even in the 1980's, 20 years ago, the top tube Gear by Conrad Johnson didn't sound all sloppy in the bass department, or overly warm. And Mark Levinsons ML-3 didn't sound dry and lifeless. That was nearly 20 years ago as as time marched on the top of each have been approaching each other steadily. Sure there are exceptions..Spectral vs Single End Triodes for instance... but the general model has both coming closer.

So for Pro Audio VS High End Audio... I see it also becoming closer. The initial goals for Pro Audio Mixing were to be able to hear the instruments separate in the mix to better manage the mix. IMHO The goal of High End was emotion and clarity and timbre.

Keith Johnson mastered some amazing recordings by taking the best of both of those philosophies and blending and carefully saving what was core to both. He used custom mastering gear to achieve his goals.

So now- with Multitrack being so affordable- and software being inexpensive for mastering, it seems that Digital Pro Audio is finally able to turn more attention to the emotional component while still struggling to stay uncolored.

High End has become increasingly obsessed with Imaging now that clarity has become more ubiquitous.

So it comes down to numbers of production. There are probably way more Fireface 800 Models sold out there than all the products Wadia makes combined.

The iPod for what it costs delivers a hard to beat combination of SQ versatility and customer support..mostly because of the volume of the units they sell.

So cell phones IMHO will eventually supplant Handheld Digital Media players in terms of SQ + features for the $$. Simply because of the sheer volume of handsets sold. I see dedicated Handheld Digital Audio Players nearly vanishing in the coming decade or sooner. The Achilles heel for Cell phones and for later model Portable CD players is battery life- which has such a high priority. These powered amps free us from that.

So the Pico while a specialized product, does not do the volume of numbers that Fireface 800 does, and has constraints of size and battery life too along with being 1/3 the streetprice. Also there is value for a company to create a top of the line loss leader in a market if you think you can lead the market with your model. The Sony PS3 cost more to produce than they sold it for- and they won't recoup that money until later in the product cycle. It produces astonishingly good Blu-ray performance for the money.

So I look at the Fireface 800 as being a name maker sort of model for the company in that price range. The Pico is sold direct without regular advertising so if it went through the regular retail chain we might see it costing $1500. The RME Fireface 800 is a piece that after you consider the R & D that went into making it at that price point.. might also have true retail of $3000- but RME may have priced it lower to garner industry attention. Also Pro Audio in the near high end studio level gives great bang for the buck with lower margins for the retailer. So I do see the two products comparable in terms of SQ for 2 channel stereo despite the large difference in street cost, size, and perhaps even corporate Mantras.

WHICH is the whole reason for asking for a comparison. The Headfi'ers are a much more progressive bunch- they are willing to try many things to achieve their goal that a traditional 2 channel audiophile would not.

Headphone Addict says he is using the Pico as a variable output DAC pre-amp in his tube amp + speaker system... so why not use a Pro Audio RME Fireface 800 Piece in a high fidelity sound system.. IF it really can deliver the goods? For many who bought the PICO they wanted the DAC and the Amp was just gravy. For those who might buy a RME Fireface 800 the 2 channel DAC might be what they really want and all the other stuff is just gravy.

I am going to buy both... so I will end up answering my own post at some point... I just can't buy both at once so I want to know which one I should buy first.

I could not imagine not using a Pico or Predator USB DAC AMP with a USB out capable media player that is in even the cheapest $200 laptops to a Macbook Pro.

The real question is what to use at home and in the Car where portability is not as paramount. IS the $379 Wadia iTransporter + iPod Classic 160 gb+ $1600 RME Fireface 800 going to blow a Pico and Macbook Pro out of the water? or Vice Versa? Will qusp compare a Pico to his RME Fireface 400 or will Iron Dreamer hear a Fireface 800? How would the Predator compare?

I am still not disagreeing with Iron Dreamer either, because I think most home and pro audio DAC's in the under $8000 price range sound pretty similar and are not that involving. But the Pico and Predator are exceptions to the rule of sound from a Portable battery powered miniscule amplifer DAC...(they are giant killers) and it would seem from reviews that the RME Fireface 800 might also have some giant killer ability that lets it compete with much higher priced brethren. The problem for me is that there are relatively few people in Pro Audio percentage wise that I would trust to make a good comparison on SQ compared to Audiophiles. So of course most Pro Audio guys think the Fireface is great. qusp is just coming down our road from the Pro Audio side- he says he can hear the difference and is being sucked in.

I also read the reviews from Headphone Addict (Portable USB DAC/AMPS) and Iron Dreamer (37 Portable amps and counting) in their comparisons and it would seems that HS might give more weight to the emotional component and drive than clarity- whereas Iron Dreamer might weight clarity and focus more. So Iron Dreamer might embrace the RME FF 800 more...

The suspense is killing me...

The only solace I have is ...At least Week Number 1 of my wait for a Pico is over since I gotten on the list.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by qusp /img/forum/go_quote.gif hi there, mind you both are still excellent and you would be hard pressed to find better pre's and D/A in any interface bar APOGEE high end (forget digidesign); apart from dedicated high end 2 channel D/A from APOGEE, Benchmark DAC 1, PRISM, LAVRY etc. but we're talking gazillion $ angelsh^%T here...............................Another thing the PICO doesn't have... BNC wordclock Oh.... and the fact that the FF400 is a 24bit/192k/hz

I quote myself here.... yes irondreamer it was a bit of a strange comparison that Golden Ears put forward and I did think about the fact that perhaps the pico's 2 channel D/A may be better as we are talking about $200 spent on the DAC section vs. 8 channels of DAC in the $2000 fireface 800. However bear in mind what Golden Ears is going to use this for; as a monitoring mixer and D/A at venues and double duty as a hi end home DA solution.

The pico may be close to as good as the fireface in pure sound quality (I don't know yet; I haven't heard the pico.... until mine arrives I won't know

(yes i'm on the order list... 2-3 months to go and counting)....still won't be able to compare because i'm not getting the dac... don't need it) as far as functionality goes though; (especially for our friends purpose) the FF wins hands down. $100 per channel of d/a conversion (pico) is by no means high end anyway and simply wont perform in the environment he is looking at with all the interference that is inherent in club environments and with the use of short cables not always an option the lack of balanced operation will mean noise/interference enters the equation (making it a pretty weird comparison, I agree). he would have to either connect it to multiple sources via a mixer and some high end XLR->mini, 1/4inch->mini or rca->mini cables. this kind of defeats the purpose of having a portable dac and will add to the cost considerably. AND IMHO the lack of features and proper stable integration into the studio environment would make it unworkable. The use of USB versus firewire is also a bit suspect; I don't know of many pro (or even semi-pro) studio solutions that use it (the only ones that springs to mind are the Apogee mini me and mini dac (a much better comparison... except for the pricetag

). GOLDEN EARS check this out Apogee Electronics: Products: Mini-DAC this can be had for as little as $700US, Also in my experience up-sampling dacs simply dither the output... degrading the output. all in all the pico simply doesn't have enough flexibility (or sheilding) for use in a live environment... and it doen't have any digital ins (ADAT, AES, SPDIF, TDIF, MIDI or WORDCLOCK); other than the USB.

So IMHO while the pico MAY... I STRESS MAY compete on pure 2 channel SQ, but it simply can't step into the shoes of the fireface. For its intended purpose though; i'm sure it is a fantastic and sexy piece of hardware (thus my choice to buy one over everything else in its price range

).... as well as the vanity I associated with hardware that I carry around with me... for my purposes the diminutive size (compared with hornet) and the ability to choose/customize its colour scheme

.... sad but true

 

[Golden Ears]

I am not a music Producer. I come from the very end of the audio chain. I was a tuner of high end systems. I positioned speakers, dialed in crossovers, recommended combos with gear synergy. I tuned rooms. In Pro Audio land at 17 years old I owned a DJ service at one time that used Bryston and Mark Levinson amps with custom JBL Paragons- We offered SQ that was normally not available in the Pro Audio industry- for me the DJ money was just a source of cash + valid excuse to my parents to buy more high end audio. I did a lot of high end affairs in Westchester County and Hamptons parties for Bond Traders, LBO'ers, corporate raiders, and defense contractors.

I continued to buy more high end audio.

I found out I had a knack for SQ when shopping for audio for myself.
I would got to High End shops looking for the best available gear and audition everything. I would typically ask to move around gear and ask for combos that were not set up. I would then come back months later and see that what I had done was now the stores "reference system". I didn't always buy a ton of gear, though I've spent about $90k on audio over the years, and a lot of it was used. But despite VERY rarely purchasing and auditioning so much- stores always welcomed me. I was sort of embarrassed that I could not buy the $20K IRS and had to buy the Infinity RS-1a used off of Sid Marks (Record reviewer for the Absolute sound) and later the RS-1b used. I also felt silly asking for a Deal on a $8000 CD player after I had auditioned so much- but the stores ALWAYS cut me incredible deals. I had value to them- while I thought that everyone did what I did. It wasn't until I started installing gear in peoples homes that I was shocked to find that most people haven't a clue about how to get even 15% out of their audio investment. Most people set up their systems awfully. You can give a "skilled mechanic" a huge selection of Porsche, Bugatti, BMW parts and likely they couldn't make a decent car out it either. What I love about Headfi is that the room and subsequent transfer function of that room is removed from the equation.. essentially removing much of what people value in my skills- and leaving only gear selection and synergy. I know I can't trust people in general to set up a audio system in a room- but I figure you guys can manage putting headphones on. So I look to headfi as gear selection specialists and I am happy to know that the room and speaker positioning is out of the equation.

Later one of the largest East Coast high end dealers asked me to become his business partner in launching his new Ultimate store. I had some sales experience in Audio having worked in 3 stores- but never sold audio systems over $150K. I am not a experienced accountant, laborer, or negotiator, I had a limited customer base. The only thing I had that this guy wanted was my ears. I'll probably never get another offer like that again. I've worked in Mid-fi shops, low fi shops, and boutique audio shops. The sad thing is that most people can't buy what they want (or position it the way they need) because of the Wife Acceptance Factor.

My Ex-Girl Friend used to mess with me at my own parties. I'd have the music playing and be two rooms away in the bedroom and she would take one of my 6 speakers in the living room (then ..Infinity RS-1's with separate bass towers and flanked by a pair of Entec Subwoofers) and move it by an inch or less. Invariably I would wander into the living room a few minutes later- prick up my ears, and wonder what happened to the sound. I'd stand back, listen for a few seconds and march right to the correct panel and reposition it- step back, make one more minor adjustment and walk away like nothing had happened- I just assumed someone had bumped it out of place. The room would roar with laughter.

I'm not OCD, I just see this stuff like a good photographer sees a shot that could be composed better or notices a photo ever so slightly out of focus. which makes total sense to people who live visually, but to most people they just think audiophiles are crazy.

As a child I was blind for a period of time- so audio was my link until I had eye surgery- so to me audio and taste + tactile things makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[qusp]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Ears /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not a music Producer. ................................. (then ..Infinity RS-1's with separate bass towers and flanked by a pair of Entec Subwoofers).

Way cool

RS-1's and Entecs..... impressive. I too am not a music producer... at least not professionally; my background is as a graphic designer and photographic/film compositor, I entered the industry through promoting dance parties so I have plenty of experience of your type

... not OCD.... sure!!! hehe

( in an advertising and visuals/room treatment capacity) at the age of 19 I was promoting parties in Australia for the likes of The Prodigy, Carl Cox and Groove Armada; I found that the things I did for kicks in my bedroom were becoming in high demand. This was fairly early in the digital revolution in design and photography. I went on to become heavily involved in high end digital pre-press for print. this was in the early nineties mind you and there wasn't really anywhere that you could enroll and study this type of specialized endeavor, but I have a knack for self starting. At this stage though that too is on hold as I took up chef'ing while furthering my education and deciding which way I wanted to go (I get bored easily). Funnily enough I have been trying to put together a company to supply digital home theatre and A/V systems that utilize the technology that people already have in their homes as a base. I find that there is far too much duplication of technology in peoples homes and keeping up with the jones' and not only is that not cost effective; it causes more harm to the environment than necessary. So I aim to supply A/V systems and home wireless music networks to the middle-upper middle class; supplying them with a setup that they can watch/download movies on, play/download music, surf the net, play video games; and order a pizza online for the boys if they want. All in as seemless a manor as possible... keeping most of the technology out of site as to not offend there aesthetics. Then I will sell them ongoing support and upgrades. I too chose headfi to help me research a solution that took room treatment/ neighbours and my housemates out of the equation for my own music production and enjoyment.... as well as seeing if there was a way that I could take the sort of quality audio that I have spent several years refining along with me on my daily public transport commute into the city to work: blocking out the peeps/noise around me and getting myself into as relaxed and zen-like state as possible before the wonderful world of dealing with the public and my own personal Gordon Ramsey.

Anyway I just though that your story deserved for me to give a little of myself in return... also might give the rest of you head-fiers a little bit of a window into my soul as well. share and share alike.

Anyway enough ranting from me. I have to do a breakfast shift in less than 5hrs so must shrug off the caffeine and go to bed....

Peace

 

[Golden Ears]

The Apogee Mini Dac is what gave my the impetus to look at laptop based audio in the first place.

Someone said that the Pico vs the Apogee Mini Dac was a toss up.

BTW I won't use a tiny USB DAC for pro audio use. The RME is used for Pro audio...but might be able to do double duty in a car or home.

The Pico, or Predator will be used for portable audio and possibly for car or home.
Likely I will use the Pico with a tube amp and ProAc's or similar smaller studio monitors in a small Ski condo.

The Pico or Predator might be used with an small computer in a car- though I prefer my music to come on right away. So I give a little more weight to a Wadia + Ipod + RME Fireface 800 running balanced (to protect in a electrical noisy environment).

The car is a 1994 E500 Mercedes. A 1995 E420 might have been an even quieter choice. Lexus measure quiet- but hearing is not linear- so I find the older 400E's and 1994-1995 E420's to be very quiet since they a geared a bit taller (about 75mph in second gear) and have more sound deadening material than the E500. Stop at a stop light and you might think the car is off. Not the case with my E500.

Soundstage wise hatchbacks fare better than sedans because of a lower seating position- but I'm not a hatchback driver. teh w124 chassis cars are pretty good for sedans in the potential for a good soundstage. Only the 1994 and 1995's came with a listenable system (sounds better than the highly touted Mark Levinson systems) all the others BOSE of course included, were garbage.

I put a 150amp alternator in my car to handle the amplifier load a 50 amp increase with more output at idle too.

The appeal of computers in cars are Internet radio stations via wireless broadband for music auditioning before purchasing. which is another reason why I like the concept of USB DAC + computer. I am less critical of in car SQ than at home where it pains me to listen to lower bit rate streams for auditioning new music.

Anyhow. The RME gets bought no matter what for DJ use. The Pico gets bought no matter what for portable use. The Wadia iTransporter is up in the air..also so is a Benchmark DAC if that sounds better than a RME. (I must resist more boxes....)

But my goal still is few pieces doing more.
If the RME FireFace 400 were the size of a pack of cigarettes I would probably just buy that and call it a day. But since the 400 is already too big I look to the 800 for its DAC improvements- and now it frees up the portable range to be tiny so the USB DACS come into play.

qusp I also think firewire is the way to go. I wouldn't buy a laptop with only USB. The only advantage of USB DACS as I see it.. would be with using internet tablets like a Nokia N810 which would never have firewire. I hope that is possible..eventually. That + a Cradlepoint EVDO battery router gives me nearly everything I need in 3 tiny boxes.

Also that being said if Justin were to make a balanced Pico with 2 in and 4 out...like the RME FF 400 in USB I probably would have bought that.. over anything else.

Oh, and now I design, contract, and sell renewable energy sources, and for fun I set up computer networked based wireless media systems in peoples homes that are controlable via cell phone in Aspen Colorado. I figure all people really need is a NAS drive and a Nokia N95 and some software loaded on their computer. Better to spend the rest of the money on DACs + Speakers, and amplifiers than on just buying transports and hard digital media that will be outdated. For Non primary listening rooms or high noise areas like kitchens, active speakers are great for that. Remotes are hard to learn- but nearly everyone who cares about audio has time to learn their phone as a remote.

The Infinity/Entec/Wadia combo was mind blowing- better than most 200K + sound systems. It was the first time Digital could even play in the same park as good analog. Funny how some digital people look to the Lp as the holy grail but too much hassle and too hard to get the hard media LP's. Back when I was a kid we looked at the LP as the low quality source with 45 rpm virgin vinyl sounding much better and then Reel to Reel Master tapes blowing that away further still. But you can't beat digital for compactness and mobility.

 

[Golden Ears]

I finally received my fire face 800, and I have to say for a piece of professional audio, I'm pretty impressed as an audio enthusiast.

What I wasn't expecting was a remarkable ease of setup. I was up and running in under two minutes. In terms of exterior looks in construction, the finish quality is first rate for a piece of pro-audio gear. The handles are nicely machined and the raised lettering is embossed with the company name.

Faceplate as a very straightforward, to the business look to it. It is pleasant, there is good contrast on the lettering, and there are just enough LEDs to let you know what is going on at a quick glance.

The headphone amplifier is strong and can drive my headphones to a reasonably high level.

Tomorrow I will be taking this to the single power meet in Denver, hopefully it will do miserably against everyone else's digital to analog converters. My fear, however, is that this unit will hold its own against a great variety of high Fidelity units. It may sound strange to hope that the box that just arrived on your door stop is something that you hope you can replace immediately.

But after owning a 860 CD player is hard to want anything else. If I had not heard the 860 CD player, then I would say that the fire face 800 is a top performer as a digital to analog converter. At the low end is astonishingly solid, there is nothing wimpy about it. It reaches deep without sounding muddy. Everything that is below 50 cycles seems well represented. The midbass is not overemphasized at all, but it's there in correct proportion.

The vocals are also impressive and clear. You can definitely hear very deep into the mix. Many people I spoke to felt that the fire face was on par with some of the Apogee units. Personally, knowing Apogee, I find that hard to believe. Where this unit does seem to struggle is in the very high frequencies. But realistically that's probably related to headphone choice, and perhaps at the unit does not have a lot of burn in. I have no idea how long it has been since his unit has been powered up. Most electronics of high-quality needs some time to settle. So I expect the high frequencies will clear up over time.

When listening to Pink Floyd's dark side of the Moon album -- the opening pulse of the heartbeat is as solid as you would ever expect. In this part of the frequency range the fire face is easily on the same level as my 860 CD player. But with the 860, as the frequencies increase, the 860 likely shows the instruments individual timbre better. Again these are only first impressions in the fire face has not had enough burn in time.

In the high frequencies the fire face seems to lack some immediate presence -- some air around the instruments seems to be missing. I will leave this unit plugged in until the Denver meet. I have a power supply in the car. So it will not be unplugged until I get there.

In terms of mobile DJ use, for 98% of the disc jockeys out there, this is probably overkill for their customers. I would be hard-pressed to be able to justify the purchase of the Apogee Symphony system to replace this. I did consider the fire face 400 model. Mostly because it can be bus powered and it supposedly has an improved preamp section. But I am more concerned about the digital to analog conversion and the lower noise spec of the fire face 800. My thoughts, if I really need a smaller more portable bus powered fire face 400, I just might buy it in addition to my fire face 800 and leave the fire face 800 permanently installed somewhere.

The fire face 800 has a signal-to-noise spec in its digital to analog conversion of 119 DB, in my humble opinion, anything exceeding 112 DB has the potential to expose subtle nuance in music. Even anything exceeding 110 DB in some cases has that potential. The fire face 400 was straddling that line and I wasn't willing to take that risk that that nuance might be missing.

I would be surprised if the benchmark DAC one in was better than the fire face 800.

One other nice thing about this unit is I expect resale value will always be above 50% for the next decade. Secondhand units typically sell for about $1200, with new units costing about $1600.

Even though I am searching for something closer to the 860 CD player which I use as a reference, I am very happy with my purchase. That being said I had high hopes that there might be a few pieces at the single power event that can surpass the fire face 800 in the upper frequency ranges and remains equal in the lower frequencies.

More to come...

 

[Golden Ears]

I'm not sure anyone cares about this thread, but I may as well put this one to rest.

I went to the Single Power meet in Denver. Before the meet was even half over it was readily apparent that a $1600 fire face was not anywhere remotely near in the same league as Ray Samuels Predator. It wasn't even close. Let's just say the RME fireface 800 was completely stomped on- trounced -- and rightly ignored for the bulk of the meet. (Sorry Qusp... but you will have to hear for yourself).

I heard the Pico, and while doing nothing particularly wrong to the music I still got the impression that I was listening to recorded music the entire time I listened to it. And mind you it did a fantastic job of playing back recorded music. When compared to a Predator that had only 500 hours of play time on it, the Pico wasted the Predator. But later after hearing a Predator that was fully burned in -- you could say that the Pico was doing a great job, but the Predator was playing as if it was a home amplifier. IT SOUNDED HUGE! Weight , authority, clarity and timbre of vocals. When you look at both, the Pico and the Predator are both tiny. When you listen to both, you quickly forget just how tiny the Predator is. The Predator completely crushed the fireface 800 in nearly all parts of the spectrum- except perhaps for the lowest bass octave.. The presentation was more deep and layered -- the highs were remarkably clearer on the predator, listening to Miles Davis on the predator -- nearly transported you to the recording session. That was not the case even remotely with my Fireface I was so happy when I sold it.

I can say that the Fireface probably lost out to over 75% of the digital to analog converters in the room. Yes Headfi'ers your little D/A's are that good.

On the bright side, I just sold it on eBay this morning, and because I got a really good deal when I bought it from someone who had an auction that ended at a strange time of day -- I was able to sell it without taking loss. Whew!

I have already begun to order what I heard in Denver.

At this point, I'm trying to figure out how to use the digital to analog converters in our little headphone amplifiers for when I DJ. I'm looking to aggregate them and use them as soundcards.

Of course the problem is that they are only two channels in and two channels out. I need two channels in and four channels out for monitoring and DJ pre-listening.

I am definitely going to use a Predator and Nano or iPod Classic as my ultra portable. I'll flip my computer for hte next faster processor which should be out soon- and I'll get a "back to school" 8 gig nano tossed in the deal.

I'm going to use a Todd the vinyl junkie hybrid portable tube amplifier for my semi portable unit likely with the iPod classic. The Ultrasone edition 9's recabled will be my headphone of choice.

For home use, I'm not sure if I will use a predator or the hybrid tube amplifier as a preamplifier. I shall have to wait and see. I wish someone knew the output impedance of these amps so i could decide whether this could be done or not.

My thoughts were to attach them to Airport express units powering some powered speakers which I will use as DJ monitors to provide music in other rooms of the house.

The real dilemma, is what shall I use in my car as a source?

Again, if the hybrid portable tube amplifier picks up vibrations around it -- then it might not be so welcome in the resonant environment of a car with a 1400 Watts of a 12 channel sound system.

In that case I think the Solid state Predator will do well.

So there is a chance that I will purchase an Apple Mac Mini as a music server to use in the car. My ultra low cost solution might be to hack an Apple TV to run OS X. the Apple TV comes with a pretty large hard drive, and can run iTunes as well as Skype.

That's a pretty cheap solution -- a $329 computer with 160 GB hard drive that is also capable of playing high definition movies from the Apple store. It also can be used in the house as an Apple TV. The only drawback is that I am not sure if the USB will work to run the predator. Also, I cannot switch the WiFi card for a broadband wireless chip.

The workaround, is that the Apple TV has WiFi, and I can use a cradle point CTR -- 500 router to make my car into a mobile hotspot so I can also listen to Internet radio through iTunes.

The nice thing about using an Apple TV, is that when I travel I will always have movies I want to watch, and I will have the most updated music since I will be using Apple TV as my music server. Best of all, using Apple TV can be done without a computer -- so when I get to where I arrive I can just plug it in to any television.

Also I have the option of being able to see my album artwork and playlists using my cellular phone and Salling Clicker. I can even recharge my cellular phone or power it from the USB port.

The only draw back is not having an optical disc drive... but then again it has been a longtime since I have had to load a CD. And I will have a CD player in the car anyway.

So it really comes down to this... the Apple TV is less expensive and has far more storage space than a Mac mini- is cheaper by almost half, it also works doing double duty in the house as Apple TV, and is a very compact combination computer and storage drive -- it also can play high-definition movies which the Mac Mini cannot.

When walking I can use the cradlepoint CTR 500 router and battery to stream Internet radio to my cellular phone, which if I feel like it I can connect to a predator or the hybrid tube amplifier. So when I'm ready to walk, all I do is detach the predator from the Apple TV and plug it into an iPod nano, or at the very worst My Nokia N95.

Also the Apple TV does not have to be hacked to run iTunes.

If my car is broken into -- let's assume they can't get into the trunk... I would be out a Apple TV, and perhaps a small monitor. That's really not so bad. And of course I'll hope that they leave my Nakamichi head unit alone. Which they probably would -- because there is no place to put a CD in that unit.

The other benefit, is that I am not cluttering my computer with too many movies which take up too much space. Also if I do go in the car with my Laptop, I also have the option of including the Apple TV not as a mini computer, but as a regular Apple TV, and I would see its drive on my computer -- and I would have full access to the shared files -- and I would be able to control my computer using my cellular phone.

All in all, I think it's a pretty good solution. For the car, I no longer have to buy anything more than an Apple TV and perhaps a small monitor. I get to have a live television in the car, because I can use EyeTV with Apple TV (also all paycable stations via slingbox) , I have a computer in the car, and a HD video source (albeit mediocre HD quality- but it holds 200 hours of movies. I can browse the internet- make skype calls and receive skype-in calls on the go. And with an Apple USB camera (yes I got one of those) I can even hook it up to the car and video chat to my car and use it as a security monitor if I wanted.. or video chat when parked. Also everyones internet devices would work in the car.

 

[Golden Ears]

Well,

In case anyone was following this thread.

I sold the RME fireface 800. The clear loser in the DAC battle.

I bought a Lavry DA-10, Borrowed an Apogee Mini DAC, and used a variety of amplifiers and speakers to determine the true audio signature. I just bought another set of Inifinity RS1b's in perfect condition- and a Set of Magneplanar Typmani IVa's (Ribbon tweeter) in perfect condtion.

I went to the Rocky Mountain Audio fest 2009 and I can say with conviction- that the Infinity RS1b's could slaughter anything else that was there when properly set up. There might be a few speakers that sound clearer than Real life (Hansens fed with Accuphase), and speakers with ultra fast transients (perhaps unrealistically fast in stopping overshoot), but IMHO nothing compares to a well made large format system with dedicated drivers. So many large format systems seem like nothing more than a bunch of stacked two way monitors (Dynaudio, Pipedreams, Dali)

Speakers used were Magneplanar Tympani 1D, Genelec S30d, ProAc Response 1SC

Amps used were Audio Research VT-100MKII (recent retube and bias) , Butler 5150, Adcom GFA-545 (ha ha), McIntosh MC440M.

Cables were wireworld Oasis balanced

Trying to hear the difference in DACs using substandard speakers is very difficult.

I was surprised at the results.

The Lavry DA-10 fell short of delivering a convincing performance. It was very quiet with excellent s/n ratio…. But lacked bloom entirely. Also depth was severely lacking. Notes and image placement laterally were good- but lacking bloom and depth easily eliminated it. It was returned.

The Pico destroyed the RME fireface.
On every level.

Listening to Tchaikovsky the best combo was Magneplanar Tympani 1d’s (my Iva’s had not arrived yet) + Apogee Mini DAC + Audio Research VT100MKII

Endless depth (rear wall completely disappeared on classical works and even Led Zeppelin 1- you would swear you were 80 feet back from the band) , speed and incredible bass slam- though S/N could be better. Transients were “rounded” a bit as if you were sitting in the first tier. This is not a front row presentation- but EXTREMELY convincing and real.

Next best combo (and clearly superior for HT) was Apogee Mini DAC + Butler 5150 + Magneplanar tympani 1D’s. Listening to Wolverine x-men kicking open a metal door had us believing he was in the room. The sheer power of the 150 tube watts hit the lowest octaves. Explosions were rendered- believable- and conversations were directly in front of you. Less bloom- by about 60% compared to the Audio Research, but still believable. Using the Lavry DA-10 just made us want to switch it out. We fed the Lavry with both USB and optical (Using wireworld supernova 5). The Lavry was clinical- and seemed to strip instruments of a lot of their timbre. While the Lavry added no warmth of its own- its subtractions were too severe to make it a contender. I prefer Steinway Grands to reverberate like Steinways Grands and not sound like a Yahama.

The Butler 5150 was purchased in the end- because of zero tube maintenance and its incredible quiet S/N ratio and remarkable value… 750 tube watts for only $1300 used.

The Genelec s30d’s were relegated to Small parties (their built in DACs were the best I have heard ina built in speaker- better than the Meridien. And no DAC was able to make them compete with Planars- but with Dance music and ROCK.. they were more involving.

So in the end- Mini DAC will steal the show for home and Pro audio use (using aggregate devices in MAC Book Pro). Possibly for the car The Predator DAC possibly in combo with the Millet Hybrid Portable.

For Portable use…. Imod 5.5 + alo 22 gauge Cryo + Millet portable hybrid tube amp + Ultrasone Edition 9 and v3 APS recable.

But there is a special IEM which I am not allowed to talk about yet… which could replace the Ultrasones… yet to be bought.

 

[ChristopheSpark]

I own a fireface 800 and I connected an ADI8 for sixteen inputs/outputs (with the ADAT tos link),it works flawlessly on my pc and sounds pretty good on my Dynaudio BM6A.But I consider  Lavry and Apogee gears are from the upper level comparing to RME.