[imho]

Hello,

For those of you who are collectors or "wanna-be" collectors, I just wanted to let you know some of the recent incidents I have experienced in the past month or two.

As a newbie to Head-Fi and the world of PCDP collecting, I literally got 'hooked-on' PCDP collecting and paid a pretty severe price for it.

Anyway, here is MY story, I hope you learn something:

I went from having just 3 PCDPs to over 30 PCDPs in just over a month period. I have been getting AT LEAST one, if not more, PCDPs per day and it has come to a point where I don't know which item is from whom.

I also experienced a VERY nasty deal with a guy who lives in the Czech Republic (e-bay I.D. Kristall-Kunst) who claims to be from Germany who TOTALLY screwed me over.

I had a few unpleasant experiences on Head-Fi as well, from people who caught up with the fact that I was a newbie and that I was willing to dish out the $$$. There are a few Head-Fiers who will either buy a PCDP from e-bay or other fellow Head-Fiers and then sell it off to unsuspecting, new Head-Fiers at a premium. I accidently came across this reading one of the threads here and reading the sales forum and feedback forum. For those of you who are not familiar, I do audits (yes, look for frauds and scams) for a living and therefore was able to cross reference the three separate forums to make the connection. Head-Fi is a VERY small protal compared to sites like Yahoo or Google, and it is NOT hard to get caught. I will watch and see what happens, but for now will not reveal any names <there are at LEAST 6 members that I am aware of who are playing this "buy-cheap-sell-expensive" to fellow Head-Fiers.> This is just wrong, immoral and dishonest...unlike what ONE member suggested, "what is wrong with making a few $$$ for going to all the trouble for buying and selling?" You be the judger, but when a seller buys an item and re-sells it at a 100-200% premium in less than a month, it's simply just not right.

To do it on e-bay is one thing, to take advantage of Head-Fi, is wrong. I consider Head-Fi to be a community, not a capitalist, money making scheme shop~ e-bay tends to fit this mold more often than not...
(*BEFORE you start dealing with other Head-Fiers, do TONS of research...not that hard to do; read postings, feedbacks, threads, go on e-bay...quite a few...to my dissapointment... are here to make $$$ and NOT interested in the wellfare of other Head-Fiers.)

All the sellers will say mint-condition, but unless the unit has NEVER been used or been out of the box (I got lucky with a D-777 <thanx again Jazzyone>and a D-T24 in that they were never used and in brand new condition), chances are the items are in worse condition than described and are USED... remember, these are not ANTIQUES, they are electronic "PORTABLE" players...with OLD technology.

I collect a lot of items and some (first-day issue stamps, sports memorabilia, limited edition collectibles) are GUARANTEED to appreciate in value...
I don't use my PCDPs, I just clean and wrap them up, so that they will stay in the same condition from the day I purchased them until the day I sell them...(I have YET to sell ANY of my PCDPs and do not plan to) but I am NOT buying them to make money off them, if that was the case, I would be in real-estate and stocks...

However, I VERY much doubt a $25 ~ $150 item will increase in value significantly over time...whereas I have stuff that cost $5,000 couple of years ago, that I KNOW for a fact have increased significantly in value...

Anyway, getting back to PCDPs. The e-bay market seems to be drying up temporarily (have you seen the selections out there? Of course, I ONLY collect SONY's so...) and I have decided to stick to the current high end (D-NE20, D-NE10, D-NE900, D-NE920) brand new items.

I realized after making the purchases, A LOT of the so called "vintage" or "legendary" PCDPs were JUNK!
NONE of them come REMOTELY close to a full sized unit in sound quality and features. I prefer SACDs and maybe I can "dream" about portable SACDPs...

My point of this whole post is to forewarn the newbies who might get wrapped up in this whole "PCDP Collection" frenzie. There have been NUMEROUS threads related to this topic and I should have read it a few more times before I went on this mad shopping spree.
The thread that got me started:
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=153017
plus these
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...=vintage+pcdps
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43218
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...gendary +PCDP
http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showt...=vintage+pcdps

"A collection SHOULD be a collection"; in other words, a collection should consist of getting a rare item worth SOME value over a lengthy period of time. Most of my other collections have been over a period of 20+ years...

Any kind of hobby should NOT entail a sense of regret or guilt, which I am feeling right now.

So all the newbies who are considering joining the ranks of Carlflow, Pappucho, Insomniac, Filburt, Audiofiler, Warubozu, Purk...

(I) It is NOT a cheap hobby
(II) Prices WILL go up and down
(III) LUCK plays a key role (a non-head-fier who just wants to get RID of a PCDP will sell it to you for dirt cheap~ I got a D-EJ900 for $50)
(IV) There ARE mean people out there who are there to buy them cheap and sell it at a high premium to suckers like me (e-bay I.D.: chrisnh911)

and last but not least:

(V) DON'T GET SUCKED INTO THE HYPE~ but remember to have fun!

 

[Budley007]

I was interested in purchasing a Sony D-25 a few months ago. I made a bid on Ebay of $60.00. I actually had the highest bid for 4 days till about 30 minutes left on the auction. What ended in a sniping-war as the last minutes ticked away was a whopping $180+ winning bid! While watching this I was first shocked then disappointed that these "vintage" PCDPs, (practically overnight), have become a popular collectors item. I'm not a collector and will not pay collector prices. So no D-25 for lil' ol' me.

I'm not attempting to demean your hobby, but your concern about buying low from Ebay and selling high on Head-Fi is a bit misplaced. A collector's market is just that. Over-inflated prices for obsolete equipment. It's the "nature of the beast". Head-Fi is a niche market for PCDPs and that's where the middle man is gonna thrive. Although I wholeheartedly wish the buyers out there would follow your advice, I seriously doubt it will have any effect. My sincere thanks for your efforts, all the same.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by imho All the sellers will say mint-condition, but unless the unit has NEVER been used or been out of the box (I got lucky with a D-777 <thanx again Jazzyone>and a D-T24 in that they were never used and in brand new condition), chances are the items are in worse condition than described and are USED... remember, these are not ANTIQUES, they are electronic "PORTABLE" players...with OLD technology. I collect a lot of items and some (first-day issue stamps, sports memorabilia, limited edition collectibles) are GUARANTEED to appreciate in value... I don't use my PCDPs, I just clean and wrap them up, so that they will stay in the same condition from the day I purchased them until the day I sell them...but I am not buying them to make money off them, if that was the case, I would be in real-estate and stocks... However, I VERY much doubt a $25 ~ $150 item will increase in value significantly over time...whereas I have stuff that cost $5,000 couple of years ago, that I KNOW for a fact have increased significantly in value...

I am not sure you apply the same rules to collecting electronics as other things. If something is mint in the box doesn't mean it's going to be functional. In fact with many of the PCDP's which rely on rechareable batteries you can guarantee it won't be functional if it's been left in a box for years. This stuff is designed to be used. The parts are designed to last a certain amount of time. Occassional use seems more sensible although batteries are a definite problem.


Isn't it important for things to be able to fulfill the function they were designed for? surely industrial design which is what you are collecting, is a marriage of form and function. You wouldn't collect vintage cars if they didn't work would you? Surely with consumer electronics some of the same considerations apply. What makes things valuable are considerations like why did Sony design such and such an item to be a certain way etc..

This makes collecting audio equipment more difficult in many ways but I don't see why you think it won't appreciate in value? This is not necessarily the case. Witness the amount of money people pay for old radiograms and phonographs from the interwar years. Surely it's as legitimate as collecting any other product of our civilisation. Just because it's mass produced doesn't mean it lacks value.

Perhaps you just need to do a lot more research about collecting this kind of stuff before blowing a load of money on it, and then accusing people of ripping you off.

 

[D555]

Buy tomorrow's collectables now!

I think the D-EJ2000 and D-NE10 will have lasting appeal as I think a good performing "high-end" PCDP is a dying breed.

Keep 'em nice, save your boxes.

Paul

 

[Tungsten]

I think imho gave some great advice to people thinking of starting out on their first PCDP adventure

imho, it seems that already people have misunderstood the point of your post, as Budley007 and memepool have demonstrated

Anyway, when your wallet recovers, you might want to look into using your PCDP's with Optical Digital outputs with a Micro DAC/AMP combo It makes such a profound difference that you'll never go back to headphone or line out listening again! In fact, you'll find yourself sort of disappointed with PCDP's without Optical Out!

This is what has happened to me since I got my Micro's.



Quote:

Buy tomorrow's collectables now! I think the D-EJ2000 and D-NE10 will have lasting appeal as I think a good performing "high-end" PCDP is a dying breed. Keep 'em nice, save your boxes. Paul

Yup. I wish I had kept the box and packaging for my Sony MZ-R900 Mindi Disc player from 5 years ago. I kept the box on display for over 2 years, but got rid of it, was sick of having junk kicking around...
Good old Mindi Disc recorders/players without USB and charging cradles are a dead breed already. They too might be quite collectible years from now, when perhaps the MD format itself has gone extinct...

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by D555 Buy tomorrow's collectables now! I think the D-EJ2000 and D-NE10 will have lasting appeal as I think a good performing "high-end" PCDP is a dying breed. Keep 'em nice, save your boxes. Paul

Boxes!?! I think most PCDPs come hermetically sealed in that plastic that you have to completely destroy to open.

 

[Ice Nine]

[size=small]Everyone seems to forget about the D-NE10. I got one NIB off E-Bay for $75.[/size]

 

[D555]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Febs Boxes!?! I think most PCDPs come hermetically sealed in that plastic that you have to completely destroy to open.

Not all of them!

Imported the D-NE2000 (silver, Tourist) from Japan -- it has a good 'ol box.
The D-NE10 came with a box, standard, in the USA.

Paul

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tungsten I think imho gave some great advice to people thinking of starting out on their first PCDP adventure imho, it seems that already people have misunderstood the point of your post, as Budley007 and memepool have demonstrated

Yes definitely a cautionary tale but the points I was making were more along the lines of "what constitutes mint?"
I understood he was paying premiums for PCDP's that were still sealed. I think this is a mistake because if I buy a vintage PCDP, first and formost it must be working or at least fixable. the fact that it's never been used means it's unlikely the batteries will still work which is not great. This is a much more difficult issue.
To me a classic PCDP like the Sony D-555 / D-Z555 is more desireable if it's still working with batteries, which seems pretty rare. Also the caps will disintegrate wether you use them or not which is another major issue. Plus the mechs may sieze up from inactivity.
My analogy is what is the point of having a D-Type Jaguar parked in your garage if it doesn't run. It's worth money only to a mechanic or a guy with a fat enough pocket book to hire a specialist mechanic.
Vintage audio is the same. PCDP's and other classic walkmans are designed to be listened to and not left to rot in a box.

 

[Ice Nine]

Quote:

My analogy is what is the point of having a D-Type Jaguar parked in your garage if it doesn't run. It's worth money only to a mechanic or a guy with a fat enough pocket book to hire a specialist mechanic.

[size=small]I've got an old T-Bird sitting in my garage that hasn't moved in years. But someday I plan on taking it out, lol.[/size]

 

[Audiofiler]

Sorry to hear that, please watch out for yourself...this is quite an addictive hobby (Hi-Fi).

I have collected PCDP's for the purpose of use and and collecting for over 14 years...my advice,
Stick to you units you know, know the units you like, and most importantly, like the units you have!

..there will always be a demand for nich/vintage Hi-Fi products..watch the overly hyped D-555, it will be worth a $1000 here in a few years, I guarantee it.
This does not mean that there is no inherent risk in obtaining/finding/shipping and RETAINING (in working order) these delicate units...

There is much risk in shipping with regards to the DM's fine nature, and often what is damaged internally is the calibration and focus POTS, usually the laser transport beind damaged, thrown off, or dries out the worm gear from being suffocated in a hot box in transit, after sitting in a closet for a decade...

the point is really, that Vintage DM is like stocks on a low level, and if you are buying to make money, Good Luck.

If you are buying to A/B different sources, or perhaps provide a worthy transport to a friend/relative (the mint ones make great gifts for music lovers), it shows an appreciation to the person you give it to (trust me), as any idiot can pick up the latest CD ATRAC Unit from Best Buy and gift it.

Anyone that has a question with a vintage unit or its use/value can post a thread under the portable forum, as there are many knowledgable headfiers here in the way of vintage portables (although most are into other H-Fi gear/solutions now)

I have some information and have studied/worked on some the best in the Sony catalog of PCDP's over the years, and would be happy to refer or suggest a matching transport or component to an interested party, given the appropriate Hardware criterion, music preferences, and of course cans.
Hope this helps,

Vintage Discman can cost more old than new, and they will never make them close to way did in the Late 80's/90's...

Their small form factor allured me then, and I still use them the same way I did back then...(as I was the only tard on my block that refused to take the D-303 out of its stand at home, and NEVER used it as a portable source because it skipped more than a Gym full of kids)

There are very few in the Sony portable realm that even produce a decent enough audio signal to use as dedicated transport...most of which that use these, do so because of the sleek looks, reminder of the days of the better build quality, its small foot print (multiple setups in various rooms with different sonic sigs - cool), and the fact that they are easily interchangable...

I had a full size rig for awhile, and the upgrade-itus was chopped short bc it died, and realized that any source will eventually croak, so it is up to your ears, and bank acct...

again sorry imho, you could have obtained a nice Rotel standalone for the price you paid for that pile of Vintage DM, no worries!!

It sounds like you had fun though

, although your avy is eerie to me, don't know why..(bc I like the TT, and used to live in NYC)
it is just spooky for some reason,

 

[Audiofiler]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool Vintage audio is the same. PCDP's and other classic walkmans are designed to be listened to and not left to rot in a box.

Exactly, these are not like Books where you can retain them forever with proper storage/temp, these are delicate working electronics products, that seize operability over time with nonuse...
keeping or hording them for the future is fine, to each his own, but be prepared to use them all regularly or you will lose some of your dated friends from Japan

 

[kramer5150]

Yeah... I agree with you on a lot of points. In a certain sense its like screwing ourselves over. BUT at the same time I also believe its up to the buyer to research the value of what their purchasing.

Generally I stay away form the BIG $$$ sony PCDPs. IMHO they are not worth the $150-$300 price tag, when you can get a used NAD or Rotel deck that will (IMHO) pound the living snot out of any portable. Although I have a D335 on the way from Filburt that sounds incredible with my RS1.... cant wait!!!

But I agree with you.... Collecting is a very enjoyable lifestyle, and we as head-fi-ers ideally, shouldn't be gouging each other.

 

[Pappucho]

And, I'd like to add, any thread that scares potential bidders from driving up prices is ok by me.

 

[warubozu]

Yup, you have to be careful. If you have no control over your spending you can end up with buyer's remorse for overspending. Do your research, know what the typical going price of that particular vintage PCDP your planning buying, and set/stick to a price limit as to how much you want to spend. There will alway be people trying to make a score on those that are uniformed. During my journey into collecting vintage PCDPs I've won some, lost some, paid dearly for some, and made others pay dearly for their winnings. The best advice is to do your research and be patient, deals can be had if you're informed and have the patience not to buy on impulse or hype.