[morunas]

Hey everyone!
 
I have a Xonar DX soundcard, Sennheiser RS180 headphones and I play music from Spotify at 44.1 KHz. I know it's probably nearly as far as it gets from audiophile... but that's the setup.
 
(note: the headphones tower is connected to the front-right speaker of a Logitech system, which is then connected to the soundcard. Don't know if this can affect sound quality)
 
My issue is that I have for the past two months been trying out different soundcard settings, giving each setting tryout some time to sink in, to find out that there was always something that annoyed me with each attempt.
 
Here is what I feel from the various settings:
 
The reference song I always used (although I hear all kinds of music):
Paradise City - Guns N' Roses (on Spotify)
 
Settings I never messed with:
 
Volume: 100% (I keep the system volume at 100% and then change it per application)
 
 
Mixer levels: I adjusted them so that the dB bars would never go over +0 dB on any frequency for "normal" sound levels (they do go over if I am feeling like blowing my ears by adjusting the volume on Spotify to 100% for example...)
 
Sample frequency: PCM 44.1 KHz (can go up to 192 KHz)
 
SVN (smart volume): Off
 
DSP Mode: none selected
 
Dolby Pro Logic IIx: Off
 
 
Setup 1
Channels: 2
Analog Out: Headphones
Dolby Headphone: Off
Equalizer: Default (all frequencies on +0 dB)
 
Impression - the sound is very clear but I feel it lacks power. For example the guitar solo (of the reference song) is much lower on this setting then in some of the other settings. I feel like simply pushing the volume up but that will totally ruin it.
 
 
Setup 2
Channels: 2
Analog Out: Headphones
Dolby Headphone: On (tried each DH-1, DH-2 and DH-3)
Equalizer: Default (all frequencies on +0 dB)
 
Impression - I have very mixed feelings about Dolby Headphone. In a way it feels comfortable the feeling it gives of being in a room with the music, but on the other hand it does something to it that it becomes a bit less clear, and it seems to "spread less around my head". It is like the sound is "more concentrated in the center". DH-2 seemed to be the best hybrid between "sound concentration / lack of clarity" and "the feeling of space".
 
 
Setup 3
Channels: 6
Analog Out: 5.1 Speakers (still using the RS180 via the Logitech 5.1 speakers which connect to the Xonar DX card)
Dolby Headphone: Not available
Equalizer: Default (all frequencies on +0 dB)
 
Impression - can't really notice much difference from Setup 1 other then it being clearly louder. I don't really understand how Channels can affect music as as far as I know music is recorded in Stereo. This is the better setting of the 3 but I just find it weird that the best I can hear comes out of a setting that contradicts using a headphone (6 channels? 5.1 speaker out?)
 
 
Setup 4 (and last )
Channels: 2
Analog Out: Headphones 
Dolby Headphone: On, DH-3
Equalizer: Jazz (frequencies alternate in a weird manner)
 
Impression - I decided to try and get the Setup 3 clearness but with Dolby Headphones enabled by fiddling with the Equalizer. The "Jazz" mode of it (lol really... Jazz mode listening to Guns N' Roses o.O no clue) makes a nearly alternating (one up, one down, one up, one down, etc) on the frequency dB controls and some how it makes Dolby headphone (in this setup on DH-3) to "open up".
However... this setup hints me that I will get a headache if I listen to it for more then 5 minutes...
 
 
Conclusion: I can't really "feel happy" with any of the settings and I am not sure where to turn or what to try. I would say my general unreached objective is to have both clear and powerful sound (or is this contradicting?).
 
 
Would love to get some config advice so I can have Paradise City in my ears!
Thanks in advance
 
morunas

 

[cel4145]

I don't like Dolby Headphone or other virtual surround effects for music because it artificially changes the original recording which is in stereo. But you should do what sounds best to you.

Also, I would try the Sennheiser RS180 connected directly to the DX for best sound.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
Conclusion: I can't really "feel happy" with any of the settings and I am not sure where to turn or what to try. I would say my general unreached objective is to have both clear and powerful sound (or is this contradicting?).

 
There's the possibility that it isn't really the settings but the hardware that you have a problem with. EQ and DSP can't ultimately change the fundamentals of a system, they just fine tune it (or add certain features like virtual surround for gaming and  movies). Clear and powerful sound is more a product of a generally neutral headphone being driven by an amplifier that can get it to ear damaging levels with no distortion.

 

[morunas]

Thanks for the replies!
 
@cel4145 The only reason why the headphones connect to the speaker is so I can easily switch between headphones (for music while working or gaming) and the 5.1 system (for watching series from the sofa or just to give my ears some rest). There is no way to seamlessly switch between speakers and headphone right? I know the Xonar DX has the headphone plug as the same for the front speakers slot. Is there a "switch" (like in networking switch) but for redirecting music?
 
@ProtegeManiac You are probably right. But wouldn't you consider RS180 a neutral headphone (it's not closed)? What would you advise me to setup in order to play from Spotify to either my speakers and my headphones? I read that Xonar DX is already a pretty decent card... or what you meant is that to get that performance I'd need a real audio system (and not a desktop as the source)?
 
Cheers!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by morunas /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

@ProtegeManiac You are probably right. But wouldn't you consider RS180 a neutral headphone (it's not closed)? 

 

I just laid it out in a more complete sense. The RS180 is neutral enough, but note that there are design compromises on its amplifier, even by portable amplifier standards. The Ibasso D-Zero for example is a tiny amp that performs well, but it's still larger than the one in the RS180's which needs to fit into the headphone body. On top of that it needs to fit the receiver, and last longer since presumably its market would tolerate shorter battery life a lot less, so likely it's loud more because of a higher gain setting, but at that point would still have more THD than other amps, plus very likely a smaller power capacitor bank which if too low in capacitance (ie you don't need a capacitor bank as large as what they use on a 1,000 subwoofer amp) can affect current performance, but then they probably matched driver specs to minimize that.

 

Also a closed headphone can be neutral, it's just a matter of how to control the resonance. A properly dampened closed headphone can in practice sound better than a fully open one since the latter has to deal with ambient noise more. You might not be aware of it, but just because you can't hear any distinct sound doesn't mean you're not getting 30dB at least of ambient noise. In my bedroom with the window open at 9pm I still get 40dB, and if I close the window and run the A/C I get 41dB but in a different frequency range.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by morunas /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I read that Xonar DX is already a pretty decent card... or what you meant is that to get that performance I'd need a real audio system (and not a desktop as the source)?

 

Of course not, nearly all of the people in this forum use desktop computers and similar sources. The thing with your set-up is that you are not driving the headphone using the Xonar DX - you are feeding the line out from it to the wireless transmitter-receiver+amp system on the RS180. At that point the driving capabilities of its amplifier is what matters, and while you don't necessarily need the biggest amp that you can carry through the door, it still has compromises compared to other amplifiers, so to begin with you're dealing with potentially higher THD even at a sane listening level (ie at least enough to be audible vs a real amplifier).

 

Also some of your notes have more to do with the tonal quality of the headphone driver than the amp, but when we have to take into account an amp with those limitations (and designed primarily for convenience), then that's one more layer of possible performance throttling in your system once the signal leaves the DX. So basically the limitations to the sound isn't the source, ie your desktop computer nor its soundcard, but everything after it. Getting a headphone with the tonal quality you like and an amplifier (or a DAC+HPamp unit) that can drive it properly is what will get you the sound you want, plus maybe EQ (although the EQ on some mobile device apps are a lot more flexible than what soundcard software suites use).

 

For a start, here's the response graph for the Sennheiser RS180 compared to other stalwarts of reference home audio listening still in production - the Sennheiser HD600, the AKG K701 and the Q701 (actually the K701 would be the older model, but the Q is cheaper so I included it). See how the the shape of the response curves are generally similar, but you have the rest bunched up where they are in the bass and lower midrange area? The RS180 has a decidedly huge bass boost centered at 100hz - it's designed more to make action movie SFX more impressive and lessabout making music as accurate as possible for the price (well, technically, for the price, it applies - it's just that a significant chunk of it was spent on the wireless system).
 

 

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by morunas /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

What would you advise me to setup in order to play from Spotify to either my speakers and my headphones?

 

If you're willing to spend again even though you have the RS180 (which isn't really bad considering it's wireless) then just get a new headphone and a DAC-HPamp that can drive it. Your DX has a DAC but the thing is if you hook up a headphone amplifier to it then there's no way to hook up the 5.1 speakers completely, so might as well use the SPDIF output on the soundcard; or just use USB. The main difference is that you can run the DSP tricks of the soundcard through the SPDIF output, so you can still get Dolby Headphone for video games. You can get the AudioGD NFB-15 and an AKG Q701 for around $450 plus shipping.

 

At the same time, are you on Premium? Because if you're not getting at least 256kbps then the music file is also potentially the problem.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by morunas /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

@cel4145 The only reason why the headphones connect to the speaker is so I can easily switch between headphones (for music while working or gaming) and the 5.1 system (for watching series from the sofa or just to give my ears some rest). There is no way to seamlessly switch between speakers and headphone right? I know the Xonar DX has the headphone plug as the same for the front speakers slot. Is there a "switch" (like in networking switch) but for redirecting music?

 

Not for 5.1 speakers. If you have a stereo (ie 2channel) speaker, it would be a lot easier - get a headphone amp/DAC+HPamp that has a preamp function, hook up the amplifier for the speakers to the preamp output, and then most of them default to headphone output when a headphone plug is detected. Some AudioGD DAC-HPamp units have a manual selector in the front panel so there's no need to pull the headphone plug out of the socket.

 

Given you're using 5.1 just stick to manually selecting it on Windows, that way you can use real surround sound as much as possible when gaming, and then use the headphone for music.

 

[cel4145]

Thanks for the replies!

@cel4145
 The only reason why the headphones connect to the speaker is so I can easily switch between headphones (for music while working or gaming) and the 5.1 system (for watching series from the sofa or just to give my ears some rest). There is no way to seamlessly switch between speakers and headphone right? I know the Xonar DX has the headphone plug as the same for the front speakers slot. Is there a "switch" (like in networking switch) but for redirecting music?

That makes sense. My point is that if the audio is going to the speakers and then being passed along to the transmitter base, it might be affecting the sound accuracy (or might not be discernible). Eliminating additional electronics from the signal path could potentially improve audio quality a bit. If you can't tell a difference plugging the tower in directly, not worth worrying about.

 

[morunas]

@ProtegeManiac Wow that was some awesome detailed well explained feedback, I couldn't have asked for more! Thank you so much! And I understood everything (with a bit of Googling to understand what THD was ).
 

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
 

You might not be aware of it, but just because you can't hear any distinct sound doesn't mean you're not getting 30dB at least of ambient noise.

 
I don't have a dBmeter but even though my desktop is on 6 Corsair silent-edition fans... they are still 6 fans... and they make up for nearly all the permanent audible background noise (other then infrequent street sounds) although I guess I am so used to it that I only hear it if I think about (which was the case right now).
 

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
 

So basically the limitations to the sound isn't the source, ie your desktop computer nor its soundcard, but everything after it.

 
Understood. And regarding upgrading, your recommendation for the 

AudioGD NFB-15 and the AKG Q701 seems great and well within budget but I am a stickler for convenience and once you go wireless... if you're me (lol)... there is no going back. Also took that approach with the Sennheiser PX 210 BT for when on the move and never looked back. Is there any "stationary" Wireless headphones that would be significantly better then my RS180? Is Sennheiser's "Kleer" technology still king of the hill in that area? Or until technology decides to join convenience and comfort with low THD,
 

Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac /img/forum/go_quote.gif 
 

At the same time, are you on Premium? Because if you're not getting at least 256kbps then the music file is also potentially the problem.

 
Yap, I am on Premium didn't occur to me (I had long ago selected High quality streaming in Spotify settings because "yeah, of course I want that!") but well remembered!
 
 
Taking it all in account... how do these Sennheiser Momentum fare? They are Bluetooth and not Kleer technology... but they do include a mic which I would LOOOOOVE to have in my headphones... but not if the quality goes down. Not sure if the price suggests sound quality difference or if it's just so pretty nicely finished all goodies but sound quality "meh". Also... if I would get those... how could I link the soundcard to them?! Is there a "soundcard to bluetooth 3.5mm dongle jack" hehehe

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 
I don't have a dBmeter but even though my desktop is on 6 Corsair silent-edition fans... they are still 6 fans... and they make up for nearly all the permanent audible background noise (other then infrequent street sounds) although I guess I am so used to it that I only hear it if I think about (which was the case right now).

 
 
You can use a smartphone app, doesn't need to be extremely accurate; also most of the people who are too concerned with fan noise generally live in areas where there isn't much ambient noise. Here, I barely notice my PC's noise, but by some people's standard's it's already too noisy (in practice I hear the wind noise from my fan more than the PC's fans).
 
 
 
 

  Understood. And regarding upgrading, your recommendation for the 

AudioGD NFB-15 and the AKG Q701 seems great and well within budget but I am a stickler for convenience and once you go wireless... if you're me (lol)... there is no going back. Also took that approach with the Sennheiser PX 210 BT for when on the move and never looked back. Is there any "stationary" Wireless headphones that would be significantly better then my RS180? Is Sennheiser's "Kleer" technology still king of the hill in that area? Or until technology decides to join convenience and comfort with low THD,

 

If that's the case then it would be best to just live with that one, there's really nothing else you can do. Convenience comes at a price - smaller amps to fit in headphone cups eliminate cables at the cost of smaller capacitors and smaller batteries, which in turn need to last longer, so they design the amp to run with no Class A bias at all. Even highly efficient Class D has a lot more THD, we just tend to be distracted seeing for example in speaker amps "300watts x 2..." from a tiny amp that we don't pay attention to what follows, which is "...@10% THD," so basically such an amp in practice would only be used at up to 100watts@1%TD given a realistic room size. Sennheiser would have designed the drivers to minimize what it needs from the amp, but again, everything being a matter of acceptable compromise, a relatively cheap, high efficiency driver tends to have some tonal balance issues - just look at that tall peak before 10khz - and more cone-break up at loud volumes. The former they probably addressed with a denser foam cover on the driver, but the peak just before 10khz is still there. 

 

 
 

 
Taking it all in account... how do these Sennheiser Momentum fare? They are Bluetooth and not Kleer technology... but they do include a mic which I would LOOOOOVE to have in my headphones... but not if the quality goes down. Not sure if the price suggests sound quality difference or if it's just so pretty nicely finished all goodies but sound quality "meh". Also... if I would get those... how could I link the soundcard to them?! Is there a "soundcard to bluetooth 3.5mm dongle jack" hehehe

 
I don't think the transmission medium would differ much, and even if they do, Kleer probably does a lot better since it's specialized, otherwise Sennheiser would just design the base on the RS180 to use BT and pay the rights rather than spend on developing something else. If you really want to use this though you'd have to hook up a transmitter to the soundcard, or as in your case, the outputs on the speaker.
http://www.amazon.com/Bluetooth-Mpow-Streambot-Streaming-Smartphones/dp/B00MJMV0GU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435807035&sr=8-1&keywords=3.5mm+Bluetooth
 
Or you can bypass the soundcard and use a BT transmitter that hooks up via USB.
http://www.amazon.com/Kinivo-BTD-400-Bluetooth-4-0-adapter/dp/B007Q45EF4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1435807132&sr=8-1&keywords=usb+bluetooth+adapter