[pinnahertz]

thanks everyone, I will now make the distinction between open loop and gNFB.

Just remember that "open loop" implies zero feedback, but that's not correct. There is feedback, just not global.

Now if I'm wrong, please guide me in comparing two amplifier of similar power, the Yamaha A-S701 (which I own) and a McIntosh MA5300. I there any reason I should be drooling for the McIntosh's amp stage? The published specs look very close, while the McIntosh costs 12 times more...

I've always liked the back-lit blue meters on the MacIntosh stuff. The remote control is nice.

 

[bigshot]

For the convenience of readers and to make it easier to reply to the factual points, I have separated this post into the irrelevant stuff and the actual factual points.

Here is the argumentative/semantic stuff... No need to reply to these.

Binary thinking. If we are to step away from the binary thinking, there is no reason to make these kinds of statements. We can play word games around what is and what isn't a tube amplifier. Categorically false. No. Look at the exchange and my wording again. Principles and methods of action can be described without using specific real world events. It is 100% valid to explain some case of mechanics and state "this example disregards resting friction". This is done for the sake of making a point. Not every explanation is a detailed real world case study. You do actually understand this. I guess you are either not reading my words in good faith or you are trying to send me a message that I am way off topic and should stop writing. I personally do think this stuff is relevant to stuff in this thread but it might not be. This was defined by the part you left out in your quote; by my opinion. If this is insufficient, you should disregard it. You are fully aware that was an example to demonstrate a principle of action. It is 100% ok to explain a case of simple mechanics by using Newtonian physics, even though they are not in fact taking into account Einstein's stuff, and later stuff. It is "good enough" to demonstrate something the demonstrator wishes to demonstrate. Again, you know this, so either you are writing in bad faith or I am way off topic. What is the level of accurateness applicable to this discussion? On one hand my clinging to strict accuracy is "binary" and on the other hand you make broad generalizations without taking a lot of stuff into account. Look above your sweeping inaccurate generalizations regarding open loop amps. Is it ok to make some assumptions for the sake of communication, or is it not? One man's accuracy is other man's irrelevant nit picking and vice versa. This line would give some indication to me that you are in fact not writing in good faith. I hope I am interpreting wrong, I'm not a native english speaker. I don't mean to define the parameters of this discussion. If my writing style is not ok here then I should stop writing. I personally think it doesn't take anything away from scientific discussion (whatever that exactly would mean in a forum like this) to provide personal views and abstract examples.

Here are the factual statements... This is the meat of the matter right here.

In reality there is a whole spectrum of amp schemes ranging from retro to quite modern that utilize tubes. Mostly in the DIY side of things, but if we are talking reality, DIY is a big portion of the "high end" game. People aren't building copies or similar designs of the big box 700 eur amps, they are copying high end stuff at home. Especially because the price of parts is low compared to buying the amp. / They are not accurate in reality; they apply only to the retro type amps. Only true in certain cases (retro amps). / However there is no reason that an amplifier that uses tubes to have a bad output impedance.

Hopefully this is helpful to people wanting to reply and it will assist posters in coming up with a way to most effectively reply to other peoples' posts.

 

[bigshot]

Now if I'm wrong, please guide me in comparing two amplifier of similar power, the Yamaha A-S701 (which I own) and a McIntosh MA5300. I there any reason I should be drooling for the McIntosh's amp stage? The published specs look very close, while the McIntosh costs 12 times more...

My brother has an all McIntosh system. He bought it when he was single and had no expenses or overhead. Back in the early 80s, I bought a 50 watt Sanyo power amp for my apartment system. Before I wired it all up, I took it over to my brother's house and secretly slipped the wires off of his McIntosh and onto my little Sanyo. (He had his stereo equipment on a rack in the hall closet.) I asked my brother if I could put on some music in the living room. He said sure and sat down to listen with me. I played one of his favorite records. At the end of the side, I commented that the record sounded very good. He replied, "Yeah, I love my system." I told him I wanted to show him something in his closet. He saw that I had swapped in my Sanyo and he was royally irked. I put the wires back trying to avoid being killed and fired up his McIntosh and played the other side of the record. He grudgingly admitted it sounded exactly the same.

Not a scientific test. But probably accurate in the broad strokes.

Now 35 years later, that Sanyo amp is long since burned out. And the Sony AVR that followed it. I have a Yamaha AVR now. My brother still has the McIntosh. But he barely ever uses it. Instead he uses a small stereo hooked up to his TV, because that has HDMI, a remote control, video inputs, surround sound, etc. The McIntosh is a great big white elephant in the living room closet. So the moral of the story is that a McIntosh may not last forever, but it will probably outlive its usefulness.

 

[pinnahertz]

Ok, lets try this:

MrCurwen said: ↑
1. In reality there is a whole spectrum of amp schemes ranging from retro to quite modern that utilize tubes.
2. Mostly in the DIY side of things, but if we are talking reality, DIY is a big portion of the "high end" game. People aren't building copies or similar designs of the big box 700 eur amps, they are copying high end stuff at home. Especially because the price of parts is low compared to buying the amp.
3. They are not accurate in reality; they apply only to the retro type amps. Only true in certain cases (retro amps).
4. However there is no reason that an amplifier that uses tubes to have a bad output impedance.

1. Irrelevant.
2. Irrelevant, and the DIY is a tiny portion of the high-end audio market.
3. Retro amp types are not accurate, they are retro.
4. Yes, there are many reasons an amp that uses tubes has a higher output impedance (not necessarily "bad"). No point in listing them, this is well known, can by found anywhere. The zero gNFB tube amp will have some of the higher output impedances of all amps. Higher output Z results in greater load interaction, and a greater difference of output from input. In other words, a less perfect amplifier. It may still be preferred in some cases depending on tastes, speaker design, and powerful listener bias.

How's that?

 

[bigshot]

Much better! thanks!

One question... why do we even need tube amps? Aren't solid state amps that are clean and flat readily available at bargain prices? Can't tube coloration by created by DSPs if you want it? Aren't solid state amps more durable and stable?

 

[pinnahertz]

Much better! thanks!

One question... why do we even need tube amps? Aren't solid state amps that are clean and flat readily available at bargain prices? Can't tube coloration by created by DSPs if you want it? Aren't solid state amps more durable and stable?

That's an easy one. Tube amps offer much more sensory input than a SS amp with DSP tube emulation. They have these big glass bottles sticking out of them, they glow a deep warm orange, they are physically heavier per output watt, and generally have more opportunities for industrial design. So we have visual input, tactile input (warmth), and the subliminal knowlege that we are using tubes that "must" sound warm.

A SS amp with DSP tube sim can be in a plain box with nothing but a power LED. What fun is that?

Compare them double-blind, and you could make them match. But that's not fun either.

I designed my personal system to be clean visually, I keep my electronics out of sight, so I take a different cost/performance path than tubes will allow. I've focussed on the resulting sound without the art and sculpture.

If I had the money to burn, physical space, and extra HVAC, I might consider a set of these:
http://www.bobcarvercorp.com/350wattsamps

or these:
http://www.am-hiend.com/product/photo/833-s/DSC00463.JPG

Or these:
https://www.manley.com/hifi/m2st

Aren't those wonderful?

They'd all be for show, not sonic benefit, and I'd keep them out where they can be seen (and kept dusted). But I'd have to pretty much move to a new house first, strike oil in my backyard, and blow off a whole bunch of other priorities just for buying what is essentially sculpture. Oh yeah, there'd be a speaker change too, 'cus you gotta go big or go home.

 

[Strangelove424]

The cutesy charms and soft glow of a tube amp is surely part of the attraction, but I found that I can personally enjoy saturation DSP just as much if not more. I find I have much more control with DSP, and don't have to accept the problems with tubes like blurred detail. I can pick and choose exactly the parts of the tube experience I enjoy (namely second order distortion near the mids, and slight treble roll off) while still enjoying the benefits of SS (clean & deep bass, flat response, lower overall THD). And best of all, at any point, I can turn off tube distortion and go back to neutral instantly. True, I don't get the old school charms of a tube amp, but the tube DSPs have some very flashy UIs that are designed to look like vintage gear. I know some people will be turned off by computer UIs, but I personally don't mind a series of low profile black boxes quietly and blindly doing their thing while I man it all from my digital control tower (PC). I like that ethos. Others may not. I can look at those fancy tube amps like the McIntosh and see the art and workmanship involved. But it's just not for me, or my budget either.

 

[bigshot]

I use Christmas lights for that. They blink too!

 

[sonitus mirus]

I use Christmas lights for that. They blink too!

The funniest thing about this item is that it might actually perform better than a lot of tube amps that claim to have superior audio quality.

http://www.coolthings.com/tag/fake-tube-amp/

 

[bigshot]

Go shopping! edison light bulb

 

[Strangelove424]

The funniest thing about this item is that it might actually perform better than a lot of tube amps that claim to have superior audio quality.

http://www.coolthings.com/tag/fake-tube-amp/

lol, It looks like it's made to make fun of audiophiles. Spike feet... USB output w/ fake pot control... cold temp fake tube lighting.... I love it. For $25, what a great gag gift for audiophiles.

 

[pinnahertz]

As fun as this is, you guys did actually miss the point. You won't get the same subliminal suggestion from the fake tube thing (wrong colors for starters), Christmas lights, or big old electric light bulbs because you know they don't do anything to the audio, and it doesn't actually go through those thermally active devices. The tube placebo is among the most powerful in the world of audio, and it's a very positive and fun one. Couple that with a slowly rotating slab of vinyl, and you have the recipe for true delusional bliss. Yes, it's placebo, but talk about warm-fuzzy-touchy-feely. Once could argue that bliss in any form is still bliss.

I'm not arguing in favor of tubes or any particular amplifier topology or music source device (you guys know this about me already), and you guys are of course spot-on with the reality of it all, but placebos can be a great deal of fun, at least while the illusion holds up. For some, that's a lifetime. I've built and still own several tube amps. I know they're rather poor amps, and can even hear many of their problems, certainly measure them. It's still a bit of fun to listen to them, imagining the beam of electrons boiling off the cathode, modulated by the grid, and slamming into the plate while looking at the heaters all glowing, and knowing that this is how it used to be before the Pleiadians introduced stupid Earth people to solid state devices.

 

[bigshot]

Do tubes and rotating LPs have enough placebo effect to make Mannheim Steamroller albums listenable?

 

[Strangelove424]

As fun as this is, you guys did actually miss the point. You won't get the same subliminal suggestion from the fake tube thing (wrong colors for starters), Christmas lights, or big old electric light bulbs because you know they don't do anything to the audio, and it doesn't actually go through those thermally active devices. The tube placebo is among the most powerful in the world of audio, and it's a very positive and fun one. Couple that with a slowly rotating slab of vinyl, and you have the recipe for true delusional bliss. Yes, it's placebo, but talk about warm-fuzzy-touchy-feely. Once could argue that bliss in any form is still bliss.

I'm not arguing in favor of tubes or any particular amplifier topology or music source device (you guys know this about me already), and you guys are of course spot-on with the reality of it all, but placebos can be a great deal of fun, at least while the illusion holds up. For some, that's a lifetime. I've built and still own several tube amps. I know they're rather poor amps, and can even hear many of their problems, certainly measure them. It's still a bit of fun to listen to them, imagining the beam of electrons boiling off the cathode, modulated by the grid, and slamming into the plate while looking at the heaters all glowing, and knowing that this is how it used to be before the Pleiadians introduced stupid Earth people to solid state devices.

The reason I found the LED tube device to be so novel was it’s enthusiastic embrace of its own tackiness. The spike feet and cold LED lighting really made me laugh. On the other hand, I see your point seriously, and I value the effect of gentle, warm lighting in a listening environment. In fact, I have a special lamp I like to use when listening to music, as I fade the other lights in the room. It’s a romantic environment for listening. If an amplifier becomes a part of that lighting environment, the placebo can be rather strong. But for people who are pragmatic in their approach, the environmental cue for warmth can be created in other ways, like the design choices of your listening environment. There’s a big Nixie tube following for those same aesthetic reasons. I understand that motivation. But when aesthetics become mixed up in the amp's functional side, lifting prices exponentially, and excusing all sorts of archaic performance problems, the acknowledgment of aesthetics turns to outright placebo chasing, and I doubt the average tube fanatic is as conscious of the effect of placebo as you are.

You probably have a good idea where I stand too, but despite those feelings I have a headphone tube amp I play with occasionally too. I don’t like to mention it often, because people can construe curiosity in something for general support of it. But I have experienced those warm, fuzzy, nostalgic charms as well, and admit that it can be intriguing. However, I found the efficiency, precision, and control I could achieve with DSP to be even more intriguing to me, and to my genuine surprise have not really used the tube amp since finding them.

 

[pinnahertz]

Do tubes and rotating LPs have enough placebo effect to make Mannheim Steamroller albums listenable?

So, ya don't like close mic'd strings, do ya? Er...I mean...close-mic'd...um...everything...??

No, nothing can fix that except an extremely high resistance between the high purity OFC copper power cord and the hospital-grade wall outlet.