[morunas]

Hey everyone,

I am looking for a pair of headphones + dac/amp to take the home music listening duty, exclusively via Spotify Premium, of my Sennheiser RS 180 which will still be used for everything else (movies, voip, work, youtube, etc).

I would like wired headphones because I need ~0 latency for recording, but also would take the oportunity to get more power and more soundstage via stronger amps.

The DACs/AMPs I currently have
I use a ASUS Xonar DX 7.1 pcie card for a crappy 5.1 speaker system from logitech just for when I want ambient sound.

I have a Focusrite Scarlett Solo 2nd gen which I use for recording and they do have headphone as well as stereo line outs. But I am not sure how to evaluate their specs vs whichever headphone I would think of buying:

Focusrite Line outputs:
Dynamic Range: 108 dB
THD+N: < 0.002%
Maximum Output Level (0 dBFS): 15.5 dBudBFS
Impedance: 430 Ohm

Focusrite Headphone Output
Dynamic Range: 104 db
THD+N: < 0.002%
Maximum Output Level: 7 dBu
Impedance <1 Ohm

So if you think the Focusrite should serve well as headphone dac+amp... then please feel free to recommend just headphones within budget (around 500€) if you think a combo of other dac+amp & headphone would be better... I'm also all ears ^^

On a final note, I'm bit of a stickler for a more vintage/luxury style (metal, leather, wood), so I was considering the Mezze 99 Classics but I've seen mixed reviews regarding sound quality and comfort. Ah I also would praise removable cable over those that have a cable permanently attached.

All feeback is welcome! Thank you

Cheers!
morunas

 

[PurpleAngel]

So you like the Sennheiser RS 180 for movies, but not for music or audio production?

I'm going to guess the Asus Xonar DX sound card, has a better DAC function, then the Scarlett Solo.
So spending about 100 Euros, for a Schiit Magni or JDS Atom headphone amplifier, to connect to the Xonar DX's front speaker/headphone jack, is the best value option.
This leaves about 400 Euros for headphones.
For audio production (creating, mixing, editing) Sony MDR-V6 or MDR-7506, would be good low cost ( <100 Euros) headphones for production.
The somy MDRs could be connected to both the Solo or headphone amplifier.
(lots of used V6 & V7506 sold on eBay).
Massdrop/Sennheiser HD58X or Soundmagic HP200 headphones have a nice lively sound, good value for music headphones.

 

[morunas]

Hey PurpleAngel! Thank you so much for your feedback and recommendations much appreciated!

So you like the Sennheiser RS 180 for movies, but not for music or audio production?

I don't dislike them... but I have two issues:
- I never experienced anything better, and I know that amps inside the cans have limitations
- I want to abolish the already low latency from Sennheiser's Kleer technology (for monitoring/recording)

I'm going to guess the Asus Xonar DX sound card, has a better DAC function, then the Scarlett Solo.

I heard though that DACs are better of outside the PC/chassis to avoid higher probability of interference with the analog signal. When I first got the Xonar DX it was to use the 7.1 virtual speaker to distribute stereo music into 5 satelites + woofer (I wanted the headphone feel without using headphones... I guess I was dreaming ). So I wouldn't mind taking it out and getting a better external DAC.

So spending about 100 Euros, for a Schiit Magni or JDS Atom headphone amplifier, to connect to the Xonar DX's front speaker/headphone jack, is the best value option.

The Schiit Magni looks certainly promising, but the Schiit Valhalla 2 looks even better what would that give me for the price? I stated a budget as guidance but if I had to stretch it a bit I could/would.

This leaves about 400 Euros for headphones. For audio production (creating, mixing, editing) Sony MDR-V6 or MDR-7506, would be good low cost ( <100 Euros) headphones for production. The Sony MDRs could be connected to both the Solo or headphone amplifier. (lots of used V6 & V7506 sold on eBay). Massdrop/Sennheiser HD58X or Soundmagic HP200 headphones have a nice lively sound, good value for music headphones.

Ah so you are recommending to get a low cost pair for production because of being more neutral? And then a separate pair for enjoying music? Had not thought of that but makes sense! This would actually allow me to do it "stepped":

I'll first get the cheap production headphones and use them with focusrite for recording, and then save a bit more for an even better amp+headphones combo.

I know this sounds weird but I kinda fell in love at first sight with the Schiit Valhalla I heard tube amps give more dimension/positioning?

However, I also want to get a good set of stereo speakers at a point so I probably should look for an amp that can drive both speakers as well as headphones.

Let me know what you think!

Cheers
morunas

 

[PurpleAngel]

Hey PurpleAngel! Thank you so much for your feedback and recommendations much appreciated!
I don't dislike them... but I have two issues:
- I never experienced anything better, and I know that amps inside the cans have limitations
- I want to abolish the already low latency from Sennheiser's Kleer technology (for monitoring/recording)
I heard though that DACs are better of outside the PC/chassis to avoid higher probability of interference with the analog signal. When I first got the Xonar DX it was to use the 7.1 virtual speaker to distribute stereo music into 5 satellites + woofer (I wanted the headphone feel without using headphones... I guess I was dreaming ). So I wouldn't mind taking it out and getting a better external DAC.
The Schiit Magni looks certainly promising, but the Schiit Valhalla 2 looks even better what would that give me for the price? I stated a budget as guidance but if I had to stretch it a bit I could/would.
Ah so you are recommending to get a low cost pair for production because of being more neutral? And then a separate pair for enjoying music? Had not thought of that but makes sense! This would actually allow me to do it "stepped":
I'll first get the cheap production headphones and use them with focusrite for recording, and then save a bit more for an even better amp+headphones combo.
I know this sounds weird but I kinda fell in love at first sight with the Schiit Valhalla I heard tube amps give more dimension/positioning?
However, I also want to get a good set of stereo speakers at a point so I probably should look for an amp that can drive both speakers as well as headphones.
Let me know what you think! Cheers morunas

Which model Logitech 5.1 speakers do you have?
It is better to have the DAC function outside of the computer case, because of electrical noise that might be generated inside the computer case.
But if you not having a current noise issue, while using the Xonar DX, can't see an issue with still using the DX as the DAC.
I usually disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when installing an internal add-on sound card.
Have you tried the Unified Xonar Drivers?
http://maxedtech.com/asus-xonar-unified-drivers/
Nothing wrong with buying a Schiit Valhalla 2, but the biggest chunk of your audio budget should go for headphones.
(you would want to get headphones that take advantage of the Valhalla 2, like higher Ohm headphones)
Maybe for now, get the Sony MDR-V6 or V7506, and plug them into the Solo (for all audio production), use the RS-180 for everything else.
You can then take your time for future audio hardware purchases.

What are you connecting the RS-180 to, on the computer?

For speakers, i would try and steer you towards studio monitors, they are better for audio production, over the separate speaker amplifier and un-powered speakers.
Check out the JBL series.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_306p_mkii.htm

 

[morunas]

Which model Logitech 5.1 speakers do you have?

Logitech X-530. Had them for... I can't remember... 12 or 13 years I think the satelite speakers sound ok at low-mid volume levels, but distort at high levels. The sub however is horrible, so I have it close to 0 volume because it's like deep nails screeching inside by ears.

It is better to have the DAC function outside of the computer case, because of electrical noise that might be generated inside the computer case. But if you not having a current noise issue, while using the Xonar DX, can't see an issue with still using the DX as the DAC.

Well I never put the speakers loud because they distort so if there is an issue I'm not noticing. What bothers me is that the soundcard sits right above the GPU (like 1 cm) and something in me doesn't like that.

I usually disable the motherboard's on-board audio, in the BIOS, when installing an internal add-on sound card.

Just checked. Apparently I had done many years ago. HD Audio controller is indeed disabled on BIOS.

Have you tried the Unified Xonar Drivers?

Yap, that's what I have installed and what I use for the 7.1 Virtual Speaker Shifter. I actually had issues for long time until I installed the Unified drivers. For ambient sound the 5.1 works fine... but the quality... is "meh". With a bad sub it gets super midrangy and the highs become more screechy. Headphones are so much better.

Nothing wrong with buying a Schiit Valhalla 2, but the biggest chunk of your audio budget should go for headphones. (you would want to get headphones that take advantage of the Valhalla 2, like higher Ohm headphones). Maybe for now, get the Sony MDR-V6 or V7506, and plug them into the Solo (for all audio production), use the RS-180 for everything else. You can then take your time for future audio hardware purchases.

Is that because you would suggest a higher entry level budget into good gear? Or at least to be worth the Schiit Valhalla 2 amp?

What are you connecting the RS-180 to, on the computer?

I'm connecting the RS-180 tower to Focusrite atm (with a jack adapter 3.5-6.3mm), which then connects via USB 3.0. Before I was connecting the RS-180 to the Røde NT-USB microphone which has an headphone output and I'd set the distribution to 100% from computer (since most of the time I don't want to hear myself...) but I found that it actually added a bit of constant very low whitenoise, where the Focusrite doesn't. One thing to note though is somehow the Røde volume knob could take the RS-180 louder than the Focusrite. But with digital volume control on Spotify/Windows that doesn't matter and I can get high volume with Focusrite.

For speakers, i would try and steer you towards studio monitors, they are better for audio production, over the separate speaker amplifier and un-powered speakers. Check out the JBL series. https://www.thomann.de/gb/jbl_306p_mkii.htm

Well I won't be upgrading the speakers for now because I have a three 27'' screen setup (I need that for work) that covers my desk left to right so I don't have space to house properly sized monitor speakers left and right. I've considered speaker stands on the ground or wall mounts but shifting desk height makes that not so good. So I was really just thinking future proofing the amp+headphone purchase by thinking "in 1-2 years I'll get a new bigger desk and then I'll already have an amp for better 2.x speakers".

Also I don't think I would use speakers for production. I compose/record for fun and that's why I want to negate the latency so when I pluck a string I hear it as if I was playing a classical guitar. So the speakers upgrade will come to be bring more sound quality than the Logitech X-530, but more for when I want ambient sound (or if it's too warm for many hours with headphones I guess). But I will prioritize better headphones.

Again thank you for all the feedback it's amazing to be able to get feedback, recommendations and inspiration from enthusiasts!

Cheers!
morunas

 

[PurpleAngel]

Just for fun, try connecting the Xonar DX's line-output (headphone) jack, to the line-input (RCA) jacks on the RS-180, see what the sound quality is like?
Set the computer's volume control to near max, to feed a strong signal from the DX to the RS-180 and just control volume using the RS-180 volume controls.
Hopefully soon you will just ditch the X-530.

So get the MDR-V6 or V7506 and connect them to the Solo headphone jack, for audio production.
(I guess it's best to use neutral (boring) headphone for audio work)
Then listen to the finished audio using the DX/RS-180 combo.

 

[morunas]

Just for fun, try connecting the Xonar DX's line-output (headphone) jack, to the line-input (RCA) jacks on the RS-180, see what the sound quality is like?
Set the computer's volume control to near max, to feed a strong signal from the DX to the RS-180 and just control volume using the RS-180 volume controls.

So... after doing a few tests and being very confused and finding out I had to change C-media Panel Uni Xonar Audio from 6 back to 2 channels, disable DSP, and set to Headphone mode... OH MY GOD... the difference is colossal vs Focusrite. On the Xonar DX I got more dimension, more bass, and the sound feels clearer. Also there was a bit of echo on the Focusrite and now that's gone. I'm almost crying o.O at the sound of Infected Mushroom's The Pretender after listening to Pink Floyd's Comfortably Numb. Can't wait to go over all my favorite music xD it's gonna be a loooong night.

Thank you so much for that suggestion! Can't thank you enough

(note: the RS-180's tower only has a single Audio in 3.5 mm jack which is what I connected to the Xonar DX, and then has 2 RCA outs)

Hopefully soon you will just ditch the X-530.

Ya I just need to keep them for now for when watching movies with my girlfriend. So swaping between the X-530 and the RS-180 will now be "meh" as both I have to go under the desk to swap cables as well as change the C-Media Panel config to get the 7.1 distribution.

So get the MDR-V6 or V7506 and connect them to the Solo headphone jack, for audio production. (I guess it's best to use neutral (boring) headphone for audio work) Then listen to the finished audio using the DX/RS-180 combo.

Well, following your advice of just getting some cans for recording to go with the Focusrite... I was wondering if the AKG 240 Studio would be a good fit. I'm thinking of the following reasons:

Semi-open - when I play guitar it helps me to hear aspects that are not captured by the string pickups, such as my thumb hitting the wood and other details that help me to follow rythm naturally. So the fact that they are semi-open would be a plus for me I think. I just tried recently to play using my Sennheiser Momentum 2.0 supraaural with the cable on and it feels so weird because of noise cancelling.
Price - since these will be just for when I'm playing, I can get the AKG 240 Studio for about 50€ atm whereas the two models you've suggested are around 100€. Again, I'm not a professional musician I've just been playing guitar and singing for 25 years now
Style - I know this shouldn't really count... but they look great/cool to me

The one thing I am always afraid is to get bad matching specifications.

For example I recall the explanation that the Ohms of the amp should be 1/8th of the Headphones (maybe I remember this wrong)... and the Focusrite says < 1 Ohm for Headphone impedance... which makes me think it's not a match for the AKG 240 Studio's 55 Ohms. Did I get that right? Or am I all over the board and confusled?

However the Sony MDR-7506 for example are 63 Ohm... so now I am really confused

Cheers and again thank you for that "little" suggestion! I feel like a child anxious to jump between playlists xD
morunas

 

[PurpleAngel]

You can get an Audio switch box ($10), you could easy switch between the DX signal going to the RS-180 or to the X-530's front speakers.
And you no longer have to go under the table to switch cables
Just need a few 3.5mm jack to RCA jack cables and one RCA to RCA cable (switch box to RS-180).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Way-Audi...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AV-Switch-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Try setting the Xonar DX's control panel to 2-channel and to "Speaker" (not headphone) output, that might(?) feed a better signal to the RS-180.
Or may not make a noticeable difference.

I'm just not sure if the AKG K240 make good audio production headphones, but at their price, they are temping.
You might try asking around on forums that are dedicated to audio production, see if they have an opinion of Sony vs AKG.
I do know the AKG K240 are more power hungry then the Sony MDR (V6/7506), just not sure how much.
Impedance (Ohm) is not the only factor for how much power a headphone needs.

 

[morunas]

You can get an Audio switch box ($10), you could easy switch between the DX signal going to the RS-180 or to the X-530's front speakers.
And you no longer have to go under the table to switch cables
Just need a few 3.5mm jack to RCA jack cables and one RCA to RCA cable (switch box to RS-180).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Way-Audio-Video-AV-RCA-Black-Switch-Selector-Box-Splitter-with-3-RCA-Cable/362756917336?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AV-Switch-Box-Composite-Selector-4-Port-RCA-Audio-Video-4-In-1-Out-To-TV/352374443331?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Alright... I should have Googled that one. Awesome! I'll get that.

Try setting the Xonar DX's control panel to 2-channel and to "Speaker" (not headphone) output, that might(?) feed a better signal to the RS-180.
Or may not make a noticeable difference.

Doesn't seem to change anything. I will always need to enable/disable System Input between 2CH and 6CH, enable/disable DSP with 7.1 Virtual Speaker Shifter and swap Analog Output to Headphone - 6 speakers.
Unless there would be come bash command to reload with a different config... I'll need to hunt for that, but doubt it exists.

I'm just not sure if the AKG K240 make good audio production headphones, but at their price, they are temping.
You might try asking around on forums that are dedicated to audio production, see if they have an opinion of Sony vs AKG.
I do know the AKG K240 are more power hungry then the Sony MDR (V6/7506), just not sure how much.
Impedance (Ohm) is not the only factor for how much power a headphone needs.

Will do

Again thank you so much for all the feedback and - for now ^^ - stopping me from impulse buying and just get what I really need.

All the best!
morunas

 

[morunas]

You can get an Audio switch box ($10), you could easy switch between the DX signal going to the RS-180 or to the X-530's front speakers.
And you no longer have to go under the table to switch cables
Just need a few 3.5mm jack to RCA jack cables and one RCA to RCA cable (switch box to RS-180).
https://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Way-Audio-Video-AV-RCA-Black-Switch-Selector-Box-Splitter-with-3-RCA-Cable/362756917336?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
https://www.ebay.com/itm/AV-Switch-Box-Composite-Selector-4-Port-RCA-Audio-Video-4-In-1-Out-To-TV/352374443331?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

Hmm I actually can't find a switch box for swaping between 5.1 Speakers / Headphones.

And what I would like would be to keep the convenience to swap channels from Voicemeeter Banana. What about the S/PDIF pass-through device output of the Xonar DX? Is that for connecting a dac/amp there?

It says: Optical S/PDIF output jack. Connects to an external digital decoder or digital speaker systems, Home Theater Systems, AV receivers for outputting digital audio including PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS, WMA-Pro, etc.

So is that socket just for convience / bypassing the Xonar DX DAC? And so needing an external amp+dac?

Cheers,
morunas

 

[PurpleAngel]

Hmm I actually can't find a switch box for swaping between 5.1 Speakers / Headphones.
And what I would like would be to keep the convenience to swap channels from Voicemeeter Banana. What about the S/PDIF pass-through device output of the Xonar DX? Is that for connecting a dac/amp there?
It says: Optical S/PDIF output jack. Connects to an external digital decoder or digital speaker systems, Home Theater Systems, AV receivers for outputting digital audio including PCM, Dolby Digital, DTS, WMA-Pro, etc.

So is that socket just for convience / bypassing the Xonar DX DAC? And so needing an external amp+dac?
Cheers, morunas

With the audio switch box, you would only need to switch the between the front speakers (green plug) and the RS-180, you would not be changing the center/sub-woofer and rear speakers connections

The Xonar DX optical output port could be connected to a DAC with an optical input
https://hifimediy.com/DACs/ready-made-dacs/SPDIF-9018-DAC?sort=p.price&order=ASC
You would not need a switch box if you got an optical DAC
Xonar DX > DAC > RS-180

 

[morunas]

With the audio switch box, you would only need to switch the between the front speakers (green plug) and the RS-180, you would not be changing the center/sub-woofer and rear speakers connections

The Xonar DX optical output port could be connected to a DAC with an optical input
https://hifimediy.com/DACs/ready-made-dacs/SPDIF-9018-DAC?sort=p.price&order=ASC
You would not need a switch box if you got an optical DAC
Xonar DX > DAC > RS-180

Well I actually came to think that I should just get a DAC for the headphones and connect via USB and plug the RS-180 there permanently. And then later once I get into better wired cans that need amping I can then get something like the Valhalla 2. The reason is I really want to also avoid changing settings on C-media Panel everytime.

So I feel like I now have it figured out:
Ambient - keep Xonar DX with Logitech X-530 and never touch C-media Panel. Once I get a better desk... I'll get rid of those and think about it when that time comes.
Production - I'll get low range production headphones and plug them to Focusrite (still need to ask around for suggestions)
Music/Movies/etc - for now I'll get a nice DAC and plug the RS-180 there. I do like the idea of building a small hi-fi setup over time... so was wondering if I should pick a brand and stick with it (such as Schiit, so for now I could try and get something like the Schiit Modi DAC).

The only thing with Schiit is that is not so easy to try and follow in Europe, being an American brand.
Are there any alike readily available in Europe brands with DACs and Amps for headphones you would recommend?

EDIT* - ignore the question above, Schiit does have an European website should I get the Schiit Modi for the RS-180 for the reasons above?

Thank you for the relentless help you are a true Headphoneus Supremus

Cheers
morunas

 

[morunas]

Hi again!

First and foremost thank you @PurpleAngel for all the previous replies (past October). Now that some months have passed...

AKG K240
I've been recording using the AKG K240 Studio for direct monitoring plugged to the Focusrite Scarlett Solo 2nd Gen.
Quality: the sound is very neutral which is great for their purpose. I was actually surprised that the bass is just fair given that they are "visually less open" than the RS-180. I can really feel I'm listening to my guitar as it should sound without any effects.
Comfort: The AKG are very comfortable for 2 to 3 hours and then I start feeling boxed and claustrophobic as the large pads warm up. I thought it could be about getting used to larger pads but at least for my head, I prefer pads on the RS-180 size that cover just enough.
Value: For the price, they were 100% a win. They did the basic job of providing no latency and the sound is perfect for recording.

Re-DACing the RS-180
Unfortunately, I did not implement the suggested solution of a switch box as it is important for me to keep both channels available simultaneously and to mute/unmute and pipe sound digitally via Voicemeeter Banana. Furthermore I want to keep desk clutter to the minimum required.
However, instead of plugging the RS-180 to Focusrite Scarlett Solo 2nd Gen with its crappier DAC... I found that plugging the RS-180 transmitter to my RØDE NT-USB mic (which has a monitoring out) seems to open up the sound more and its gain allows me to push them to higher volumes than the Focusrite. And so this way I have not been needing to change any cables around, which I love.

Upgrading
What I am looking for first and foremost is an external DAC for the RS-180... with a gain switch (them knobs ).
However, I also intend to buy some higher quality wired cans just for music listening sessions (at which time I don't mind swapping cables at the desk level).
Therefore I am considering going with an AMP+DAC all-in-one like JDS Element II, or perhaps go for a modular setup with Schiit products, but I still need to research a fair bit on what other people are using and check what is on the market again.
Any suggestions are of course most welcome

Cheers!
morunas

 

[stpope]

In case you haven't seen it, I posted an in-depth comparison of 10 (11 actually) sets of headphones called "A Tale of 10 Cans" in a parallel forum; see, https://www.head-fi.org/threads/a-tale-of-10-cans.928530

Based on that, my recommendation to you would be a Chord Mojo DAC/amp and Audio-Technica ATH-R70x 'phones.

PS: I run a studio as well, and liked the Focusrute gear a lot (now using Antelope interfaces).

stp

 

[morunas]

In case you haven't seen it, I posted an in-depth comparison of 10 (11 actually) sets of headphones called "A Tale of 10 Cans" in a parallel forum; see, https://www.head-fi.org/threads/a-tale-of-10-cans.928530

Based on that, my recommendation to you would be a Chord Mojo DAC/amp and Audio-Technica ATH-R70x 'phones.

PS: I run a studio as well, and liked the Focusrute gear a lot (now using Antelope interfaces).

stp

Thank you for the reply

I appreciate your suggestion but I am unfortunately a stickler for a more premium style that the ATH-R70x and even more the Mojo's don't have.
I prefer materials like aluminium, leather, wood and a classy look.

I've actually posted a new thread as I've decided to take it already a step further:
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/hea...setup-budget-up-to-1500.928717/#post-15533636

Cheers!
morunas