[Asterix]

What are some of the pros and cons of using a sub?

 

[Glod]

Well, actually only pros, if you ask me. Provides a much needed fundament to the soundstage and adds a lot of ambience and "presence", unless you already have a duo of B&W 801's. You really need one (or actually perhaps two) with very good adjusting possibilities though. I have heard some pretty bad boomers, mainly meant for the home-cinema market. They give you such a punch you almost get nauseous, but with such poor timing and no subtlety and micro dynamics they miss the whole idea behind.

Here in Europe Rel is highly valued.

http://www.rel.net/

 

[PsychoZX]

When set up properly there are no cons IMO other than another speaker taking up space (some might consider this a con some might not). For help on subwoofer placement and setup check out these links.

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/setup/index.php
http://www.goodsound.com/howto/2002_06_15.htm

 

[clarke68]

Subwoofers are great fun for all the reasons mentioned above, but don't be fooled by the "bass in omni-directional, put it anywhere you want" crowd...sub placement is critical. They can reveal quite clearly all the weaknesses (nodes and anti-nodes) of your listening room (a good set of full-range speakers may do that as well, I don't know, I've never owned a pair).

Here's my favorite subwoofer set-up article, just to add to the others.

The biggest con is that the effect of a properly setup audiophile subwoofer is really quite subtle. They're meant to add life to the room, but not call attention to themselves. Of course, once you've dropped several hundred (or several thousand) dollars on a sub, you'll want to call a little attention to it and turn it up, and that sure is fun on certain recordings! But on others, I occasionally prefer the sound of mini-monitors alone.

Sometimes I dial the sub down to "proper audiophile levels" and A/B between having it off and having it on and I think to myself, "is that effect really worth the money and space this thing is taking in my room?"

 

[TommyTheCat]

Well, subwoofer freq's (not above 60hz or so) are quite omni-directional and you can put them anywhere you want because you cant localize them. The whole (anti)nodes thing is about overall power/freq response of the sub, ie dips and humps.

And if your monitors play low enough like clarke's, you only really need it for "reproduction" type sound levels, aka loud.

But they are essential to a home theater system, and quite helpful for a two-way stereo system. (except the exodus kits, i hope

)

 

[rickcr42]

Pro Sub Woofer :

1-Essential for Home Theater
2-Can add the last octave missing from most systems
3-eases the load on the main power amp allowing SET amps to be used for the main leaft and right speakers and a high power solid state dedicated sub amp for bass only
4-allow the use of deadly accurate but bass shy speakers as your main left and right channels

Con :

1-A "true" subwoofer produces low bass in the 25 or 30 to 75 or so Hz range and most rooms just will not support this without major headaches in the set up.even then it may not be possible
2-Most subs are no more than boom and thud boxes better labeled "Bass Bins" than "sub" woofers which they are not having no shot at any real notes below 40 hz
3-low powerful bass means a big box or a huge amp or both.Not cheap
4-the average user of a subwoofer has absolutely no clue how to properly set one up
5-some loudspeakers have special requirements in the Main/subwoofer matchup and unless carefully chosen to integrate well (and not the "what is the best subwoofer" type either) with the mains will draw attention as a distinct sound source,one not blending at all in the crossover region with the overall system.Horn speakers and Film speakers (stats) are in this category.
6-very few recording (video and audio0 have anything below 40 hz.it may say otherwise but really nothing there worth the expense of a real sub system
7-everything in the room if not anchored down will rattle and or fall off shelves


Get it right and in a room that can support the low bass notes and a subwoofer is an asset that adds the last bit of foundation to the music.Go at it with half measures and with no clue and your system will sound worse for having the sub.
This is for a REAL "Sub" woofer and not the special effects boxes being sold as such with are no more than boom boxes to add excitement as said above.

I have always had one in system until I moved to my present digs where so far every attempt to blend in a sub has failed miserably and I do not yet have an answer.......but I will...............

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 too many good points to quote

Absolutely spot on...that's some of the best subwoofer advice ever!

 

[bln]

Don't blow your ears out.

 

[Aman]

You might just want to get speakers that produce good enough bass that you won't need one.

I have mini-floorstanding speakers that would go for no more than 100 bucks for the pair now used (Ohm Model B speakers from '76) and they even produce fantastic bass.

Many people THINK they need the extra bass, but you really don't. IMO, bass should be kept to a pretty average rating, otherwise you lose clarity.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

You might just want to get speakers that produce good enough bass that you won't need one.

for the average human with a full range floor stander that gets it right to say 40-45 hz will have all the bass they need for music and the set-up won't be a bear.Eevn a mid sized cabinet with an 8 inch woofer if a good design will be 96% of all you will ever need for music'

for movies and the special effects that make the experience in the home beter even than the theater (too damn loud and croaky usually) one of those bottom firing bass "cubes" with a built in amp close to the listening position will be fine.
By placing it close to your position you get it out into the room and away from room boundries and corners and by being close it will couple vibrations to your seat making it seem more powerful than it truly is plusby being close it will use less power for the same apparent volume level.

This is the trick they use to get those crappy little 6 inch multimedia woofers to fool you into thinking you have real bass at the computer.

True bass with any real acoustic power takes either a very large driver in a very large box or a big driver in a small box but driven by gobs of amplifier power to make up for box size limitations
A huge multidriver box (like the Infinities) or stacked boxes (think cone surface area) AND gobs of power is the ideal it would seem but that is only if the room can actually handle it (big enough to support the notes and stiff enough to not flex sympatically with the bass)

also something to consider is cabinet type and bass projection,where the bass notes actually start and falloff in power.
A horn needs room,you need to be a certain distance away or the sweet spot will be behind you unless the horn is far behind the room walls and only the mouth is in the room (not always but mostly).This bass will project for a long distance but if the mains can not keep up it will sound weird
A ported sub is good close in,the 5-15 feet range, but loses power over a long distance unless you stack cabinets.

Subwoofers are a real nightmare better left out unless you have the means to do it right.
Like I said earlier I am "subless" at this time because I can not get one to work both with my room and mate well with my main speakers and i have tied many but my requirements are tough.


I may end up settling for a kinda "bass assist" box in the 40-70 hz range instead of a real sub just to add a little ooomph to my sound without driving me nuts trying to get it to fit.I can live with accurate to 40 hz with a nice easy rolloff at the bottom end (T Line ?) but not a big peak at that frequency with a rapid roloff to the two sides (bandpass box)

 

[rhythmdevils]

sometimes I feel like it seperates the bass from the rest of the music too much. but this may be because i havent ever heard it set up right

I hate it when a car system has the tweeter blasting, then the mid dump dumping, and then in the way back, you get this spine bustling earthquake. All I can think of is how much the tweeter hurts my ears and how much the sub hurts my back and makes me have a heart attack and seizure and bite my tongue off and spew blood and guts everywhere

 

[jpr703]

With good floorstanders you shouldn't need one. Too much bass is going to muddy up your sound and take away the naturalness of the presentation.

To me subs should only be in music systems when you're using bookshelves that just don't hit the bass notes. One might also come in useful for watching movies--especially if you can turn it off when listening to music.

 

[rickcr42]

Quote:

sometimes I feel like it seperates the bass from the rest of the music too much. but this may be because i havent ever heard it set up right

Exactly.
The transition from woofer to subwoofer is a very important area that most pay very little attention to.They need to rememer there IS an overlap between the two no matter how steep the crossover and the better the match of the two drivers the closer the integration.
This needs to be a system approach not a search for a great speaker then a search for a great sub.
Alone each may be great on paper but in combination a total disaster .

Quote:

I hate it when a car system has the tweeter blasting, then the mid dump dumping, and then in the way back, you get this spine bustling earthquake. All I can think of is how much the tweeter hurts my ears and how much the sub hurts my back and makes me have a heart attack and seizure and bite my tongue off and spew blood and guts everywhere

another example of mismatching by trying to get the "best" at each position even though in combination these speakers have no business being in the same car together.

Quote:

With good floorstanders you shouldn't need one. Too much bass is going to muddy up your sound and take away the naturalness of the presentation.

too much bass means it is set up wrong and no more.A "full range" loudspeaker is anything but that and it should be more accurately labelled a "mostly full range" speaker.Taking the extreme low notes out of the box and with its own amplifier is an improvement but only if done right.A subwoofer does not "boom" unless it is either a special effects box and not a sub or the installer had no clue OR there is no way short of equalising/acoustic treatment to get that sub to work in the room it is in.

I have had subs hooked up that visitors to my home would SEE they being huge refridgerator sized boxes and then be asked to turn it on even though they WERE on !!!!!!!!

these people like most have only experience the bass box as a thunder box and had never actually heard a well integrated sub systen so because the notes were not actually heard as a separate sound they could not fathom this HUGE box not being heard.
I would actully have to pull the cover off and let then SEE the cone excursions and the next question would always be.

"so how come such a big woofer does not put out any bass ?"

WANNA KILL "EM !

again their idea of bass is not natural bass but the boom boom thud boom type and they could not wrap their brain arounfd the concept of this huge woofer not ratttling their teeth out or sounding like the systems in most cars these days .Tthe ones you hear comin down the road a mile before they get there but only the monotonic bass notes.

Buuuuuuuuuung,buuuuuuuuuuuung,buuuuuuuuuuuung

I would then flip a switch and taking the sub 'out of system' and the look on that visitors face would be priceless AND expected by me.The entire foundation of the music would dissapear and make the main speakers sound very bass shy and tiiny even though they were not.The notes they were feeeling in their gut,in their chest and in thier crotch (thier balls being mostly guys

) were no longer there.

Deep bass is not heard as much as it is a"feeling' and if you hear it as a distinct sound something is just not right.

I have main speakers right now that I love from 50-15 khz which is where most music actually lives and the sheer speed and articualtion is one that I find sounds like the live event but I still need that elusive 35-50 hz and even though less than a full octave a sound it is the absolutely hardest band for me to get right and say "I am done".The upper high freqs I took care of with a padded down "supertweeter" because that also should not draw attention to iself but meld with the whole as a helper and not the center of attention.

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 I have main speakers right now that I love from 50-15 khz which is where most music actually lives and the sheer speed and articualtion is one that I find sounds like the live event...

Wow. Not to derail the thread, but what speakers do you have?

 

[rsaavedra]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickcr42 for the average human with a full range floor stander that gets it right to say 40-45 hz will have all the bass they need for music and the set-up won't be a bear.

Well two things.

1) I would say that if you get down to 30 Hz then you are ok (only half the lowest octave missing). Those low notes are really the beginning of the "steps of a giant" effect and impact (read SLAM) of low notes in music. Just reaching down to 40 is ok too, but you are missing the whole lowest octave.

2) Even reaching down to just 40Hz you have lots of placement issues. Bass cancellations and room nodes affect frequencies much higher than that (e.g. even above 120Hz).

Another two, the only cons of subwoofers are:
1) The difficulty of proper placement to avoid room interaction issues and bass cancellation / boominess).

2) The difficulty of proper integration with the mains (phase coherency with the mains, smooth freq. response transition at the crossover freqs). That's basically it.

The pros are just better fuller sound.