[Zapp_Fan]

Hi all,

I'm not new to audio, but am new to the high-end headphone world. Just attended the Schiitcago event yesterday, and quickly came to the conclusion that 1) differences between amps are quite audible and 2) there is much to be gained by upgrading my current kit, which is:

Sennheiser HD555
Beyerdynamic DT770 80 ohm
Mackie Onyx 400F

I pretty much know where I stand with the cans, but I am wondering how to evaluate the Mackie DAC/amp. It was something like $800 MSRP when it was new, but most of the hardware, I think, would have gone towards the mic preamps. I can vouch that it's decent prosumer-level gear for recording, but not sure whether I can rest easy with the headphone amp section after hearing some top of the line Schiit gear yesterday.

I should say that I'm very happy with a super-neutral / flat sound, the last thing I want is a colorful amp. That said, I'm really not so sure now, whether my cans lack dynamic response, or the Mackie unit does. What's a good way to evaluate this amp critically? (noob questions...)

 

[cossix]

Apart from getting familiar with a new amp, it's kinda hard to answer that for you. Can you find specs on the amp section? That would be a good place to start if you want to see how well the amp should perform in relation to any other amp

 

[Zapp_Fan]

Good point. Now that I actually go back and look, I can't even find the impedance (let alone other specs) of the HP outputs anywhere, even in the user manual. I think that's an indication that this amp section is nothing special.

I think the DAC is probably fine, though... so I guess the way forward now would be an amp stage to plug into the Onyx.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Hi all,
I'm not new to audio, but am new to the high-end headphone world. Just attended the Schiitcago event yesterday, and quickly came to the conclusion that 1) differences between amps are quite audible and 2) there is much to be gained by upgrading my current kit, which is:
Sennheiser HD555
Beyerdynamic DT770 80 ohm
Mackie Onyx 400F
I pretty much know where I stand with the cans, but I am wondering how to evaluate the Mackie DAC/amp. It was something like $800 MSRP when it was new, but most of the hardware, I think, would have gone towards the mic pre-amps. I can vouch that it's decent prosumer-level gear for recording, but not sure whether I can rest easy with the headphone amp section after hearing some top of the line Schiitt gear yesterday.
I should say that I'm very happy with a super-neutral / flat sound, the last thing I want is a colorful amp. That said, I'm really not so sure now, whether my cans lack dynamic response, or the Mackie unit does. What's a good way to evaluate this amp critically? (noob questions...)

My two cents.
If your looking to improve audio quality, look into upgrading the headphones.
I own the HD558 and DT770 Ohm, there are better headphones.
Currently my preferred headphone is the Beyerdynamic T90
If the Onyx 400F can drive the DT770 80-Ohm to a loud level, then it should have no problem driving 250-Ohm Beyer headphones, like the T90.

 

[Zapp_Fan]

Oh, definitely - between the two pairs I spent a total of $50 ... (one was a gift, another a yard sale find) ... so I plan on that also. I'm mainly questioning whether I already had a decent amp on my hands or not. It does go reasonably loud and I am inclined to believe it's not total crap, on the other hand, I couldn't tell you (nor could anyone) what the performance in terms of phase / harmonic distortion might be, frequency response, etc. So, I imagine there is definitely room for improvement on both fronts.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Good point. Now that I actually go back and look, I can't even find the impedance (let alone other specs) of the HP outputs anywhere, even in the user manual. I think that's an indication that this amp section is nothing special.

I think the DAC is probably fine, though... so I guess the way forward now would be an amp stage to plug into the Onyx.

While the headphone amplification, build into the Onyx 400F may or may not be technicality as good as a Schiitt solid state headphone amplifier,
the headphone amplifier in the 400F might still be good enough to do the job, so please consider looking into upgrading headphones.

If you really have your heart set on getting a stand alone headphone amplifier, check out the Darkvoice OTL tube headphone amplifier.
https://www.massdrop.com/buy/dark-voice-366se

 

[PurpleAngel]

Oh, definitely - between the two pairs I spent a total of $50 ... (one was a gift, another a yard sale find) ... so I plan on that also. I'm mainly questioning whether I already had a decent amp on my hands or not. It does go reasonably loud and I am inclined to believe it's not total crap, on the other hand, I couldn't tell you (nor could anyone) what the performance in terms of phase / harmonic distortion might be, frequency response, etc. So, I imagine there is definitely room for improvement on both fronts.

I guess the Mackie Onyx 400F is indented to be used by an Audio Professional, someone that knows good audio quality when they hear it.
The Onyx 400F sold new for around $1000 (in 2006 dollars), so if the headphone hardware was not at least over all fairly decent, I would have assumed it would be subject to a lot of returns to the retailer that sold it.
If you had plans to sell off the Onyx 400F, then yes getting a new DAC/amp would make sense.

 

[Zapp_Fan]

It is indeed, but I am not sure if the headphone stage is meant for serious critical listening or not.

The balanced outs on the back are not bad. The headphone amps put out adequate wattage. But the device itself is mostly sold on the merits of its mic pres and its (10+ year old now) DAC - not its output quality. The headphone outs are neutral enough and don't seem to have major performance problems, but a basic session monitoring setup doesn't need to reach audiophile-quality levels to be useful in a studio.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Good point. Now that I actually go back and look, I can't even find the impedance (let alone other specs) of the HP outputs anywhere, even in the user manual. I think that's an indication that this amp section is nothing special.

If the interface does not state what the output impedance is assume it's high. Anything below 250ohms will be EQ-d enough to either sound like a mudslide or a tin can. Or a weak mudslide.

That said, your headphones do not simply have lower impedance, they also have significant boost in the bass region. If you can get a 150ohm to 300ohm dynamic driver headphone with higher sensitivity than those, that might be a more sensible upgrade than replacing the interface. Although this isn't easy since lower price headphones have sensitivity as a top priority. Higher sensitivity is key though because most interfaces tend to have lower power output with higher distortion and noise, for example some have something like 20mW at 0.1% THD+N at 32ohms (not sure how close yours is to that) while an equivalent DAC-HPamp for that price range will get you a HPamp circuit that does something more along the lines of 500mW at 0.001% THD+N at 32ohms.

I think the DAC is probably fine, though... so I guess the way forward now would be an amp stage to plug into the Onyx.

Check the manual if it can provide a fixed level line out.

My two cents.
If your looking to improve audio quality, look into upgrading the headphones.
I own the HD558 and DT770 Ohm, there are better headphones.
Currently my preferred headphone is the Beyerdynamic T90
If the Onyx 400F can drive the DT770 80-Ohm to a loud level, then it should have no problem driving 250-Ohm Beyer headphones, like the T90.

That works in the case of the T90 since it has higher impedance and sensitivity, dealing with the two more common source of issues for amplification quality. If that's not his cup of tea and he gets a headphone with lower impedance and/or sensitivity, he'll at best trade one problem for another but it might still be far off from what he can get with a better headphone amp.