Odd that listeners hear more bass from HD 650 than K701
Jan 17, 2007 at 4:12 AM Post #61 of 119
Hi-Finthen & Davesrose,

The biggest variable here is not your equipment or ears but music selections and personal experiences of live music.

While I can find something I like in nearly any genre, my focal point would be anything that people clump into the "classical" genre.

My reference point for what real live music should sound like would primarily be the Metropolitan Opera house in NYC which I have attended numerous times.

Unless you have front-row seats very close to the orchestra pit, you really do not hear any "bass slam". You do however hear deep reverberations. Yet, they are typically subtle and certainly much lower in amplitude than the other sounds occurring at that moment.

The K501 emulates what I expect from a "live" performance more closely than anything else I have auditioned. (Have not heard electrostats)

Sennheiser advertises the HD580/600 specifically in favor of classical music, and while they are pleasant to listen to no question, they do not come close to the K501 when it comes to emulating the experience of "being there".

On the other side of the fence, if you go out to a jazz bar after work every now and then, and that is your "vision" of live music, I can certainly see how you would prefer the 600 or even 650.

If your vision of live music is being at an after-hours dance club, maybe the DT770 would be better a match for you...

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http://www.sendspace.com/file/m4h0w1
[Edit: Alternative link- http://rapidshare.com/files/12056693...Drum.flac.html]
Above is a clip from a slightly older recording that sounds quite realistic via my K501's and noticably more colored (and much too bass heavy) on 650's.
It was not mastered or processed nearly at all---a very "raw" recording. Audition it for yourself. Pay special attention to the sense of space---you should be able to hear each drum strike reverberate, and reflect off the rear wall.

Post a clip or two of your own, explaining why it sounds good or bad to you, and with which phones.

In order to come to better conclusions and not spiral into arguments, we need more information to support our claims or criticisms.
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 4:34 AM Post #62 of 119
SeagramSeven,

Forgive me and Hi-Finthen's flames.....he had been posting previously about how Senns only do well with Single Power amps.....in an effort to antagonize me: a proponent of that series of amps (and when you check this site....it gets accolades from a lot of headphone owners from all brands, so it's not that it's a colored amp). So I'll get back to a serious discussion.

I'll agree with you that music genre preference is a factor in how much bass you may prefer. However, there is synergy with your equipment as well. Now if I can generalize for a bit, k501s have an emphasis in mids. HD650s have more of a bass emphasis, while the SR325is have more of an emphasis in treble. Both these headphones are balanced to my ears though.....while they might have a slant towards one spectrum, they have good refinement in all registers. They are not veiled.

When I first got the k501s, I had the HD580s and HD595s. My HD580s were my favorite headphone for solo intruments (classical guitar especially), accoustic, and alternative. I found I liked the HD595's more upfront nature for symphonies because it brought out incredible detail. You need a headphone that has a wide range in tonality for symphonies IMHO. I was playing music with my laptop and CD player plugged through a HeadRoom MicroAmp. When I first got the k501s, I encountered a huge soundstage yet rolled off treble and bass. Many told me it was my source and amp. I still prefered my HD595s for symphonies. My expensive rig hasn't changed too many things for the k501's tonality, but at least it's soundstage has shrunk.

I wasn't able to download your clip, but I can say that a lot of classical that I'm listening to now is on SACD.....try listening to Harnoncourt's Mozart Requim on my system, and I think you might aggree with me that the HD650 doesn't have boomy bass for a concert hall.
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 5:00 AM Post #64 of 119
SeagramSeven, I can't get that link to work.....just gives me ads and promises that it may download. Then it takes me to more ads
biggrin.gif


I've been to a Head-fi and have been able to hear other people's prized headphone systems. We can at least agree that equipment does have certain sound characteristics that can influence impact, detail, or warm or bright coloration. Now the stereotypes of the k501s is that they have rolled off bass (which people correct with warmer sources or electrical tape around the pads). The stereotypes of the Senns is that they're too bass heavy (which tends to be from people with a warm or muddy source). At least when I give headphone advise, I try to find out what source and music preferences a person has. So that's why I think a lot of people's perception on a particular headphone is really dependant on their system and music preferences.
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 5:25 AM Post #65 of 119
Quote:

Originally Posted by Davesrose /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I can't get that link to work.....just gives me ads and promises that it may download. Then it takes me to more ads
biggrin.gif



After clicking the link, just click the button in the bottom right-hand corner that says "Free".
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 5:38 AM Post #66 of 119
Still not working.....finally let me download, but then stalled. I'm giving up
plainface.gif
The only way to have a controlled comparison for us, would be to use the exact same source anyway (player, album, headphones). Wish I could say just come over here and listen to some SACDs at my place. That'll make a believer of ya
biggrin.gif
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 5:40 AM Post #67 of 119
Quote:

Originally Posted by spike33 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The headroom graphs are accurate. K701 is perceived to have less bass because it has a peak in the upper mids (~2.5 kHz). Human hearing is very sensitive to this region so people tend to listen to K701 at low volume. HD650 doesn't have this peak so people can and want to turn it up, thus more bass.


Yup. It's all in relation to DB levels @ certain freq's, especially irritating ones(2-3k)

Just like Spike said, as soon as most folks hear 2-3k @ a certain DB level, they pull off the volume.

It's relative perception.

That being said....

I heard the HD650 over high end solid state gear, and thought it wasn't Bass-heavy @ all, in the best way.

But, even though a dip around 2-3k is great for hours of comfortable listening...
600smile.gif

...for editing and reference, folks need to hear the irritating freq's too...

Anyone with a parametric EQ, do your own test.
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Pull down 2-3k, and crank it to TEN...

...still comfortable.

Simple human acoustical Science.
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Jan 17, 2007 at 6:36 AM Post #69 of 119
I don't see any fanboyism so much as I see people who enjoy the HD650 defending it from what they believe are erroneous claims from people who are equally fervent about their can of choice.
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 6:41 AM Post #70 of 119
Quote:

Originally Posted by F1GTR /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The HD650 fanboyism is rampant in this thread.


Just as AKG fanboyism is on this thread.....hence why it's this way on every single k701 vs HD650 thread. We're doomed to repeat ourselves
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Jan 17, 2007 at 7:50 AM Post #71 of 119
On the case of hd650 being bass heavy - oh so ********. Put through micro DAC and porta corda (neither has demonstrated itself to be bass light over any other chains I used) and bass was just where it should be. Amen, same area as 404, ran out of 313, and 313+404 combo is not screaming for being a bass machine.

Oh btw, isn't SP Slam an amp with some good bass qualities?
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 8:11 AM Post #72 of 119
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaZa /img/forum/go_quote.gif
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...this feels like some one is saying "Grados are not bright and aggressive". (from technical POV, not persons feeling if he finds it bothering or likes it)



That my HD650s are 1 year old may explain it. At this point, they sound so supremely right...

Though, and I'm no bass head really, sometimes I wouldn' mind just a little bit more bass-midbass, to give more sense of weight to male vocals when listening to Leonard Cohen etc. This is with a portable amp, powerful but portable.
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 8:21 AM Post #73 of 119
Quote:

Originally Posted by spike33 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The headroom graphs are accurate. K701 is perceived to have less bass because it has a peak in the upper mids (~2.5 kHz). Human hearing is very sensitive to this region so people tend to listen to K701 at low volume. HD650 doesn't have this peak so people can and want to turn it up, thus more bass.


I think we have a winner!
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 8:27 AM Post #74 of 119
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think we have a winner!


Yup, especially summing spike's comment to my previous one concerning the lacking dynamics of the K701 as compared to other high end cans - someone has even measured it (namely Rudi of Rudistor).
 
Jan 17, 2007 at 8:28 AM Post #75 of 119
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emon /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I think we have a winner!


Except for the fact that the K-701 doesn't have a peak in the upper mids, but rather, in the treble region.
 

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