[fishski13]

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DIY means different things to different people:  that much should be apparent, I hope.  I'm only in it very occasionally for different things, either to save money or get something that couldn't otherwise be gotten at the time.
 
 
Anyway, if you're going to make tweaks of the design, it makes sense to read the documentation regarding why the part was chosen.  Then you can agree or disagree with the rationale and figure out if something else may be worth trying.  About the gain -> output stage coupling caps C13 and C14, different caps were already tested in various ways, and none of them tested were significantly different in performance.  Most selections that people would have concerns about regarding performance were tested, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some aspects that are not detailed.

x2.  

 

[SobbingWallet]

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thanks. understood.  i gotcha now.  

 
while i hate to place VFM judgements on commercial gears, i think that DIY cuts through the audiophoolery b.s. and can allow the end user to shell out less cash.  yes, DIY means different things to different people, but i'd like to think that DIY should be a large tent where ideas are shared and opposing opinions are respectfully argued.  i have problem with non-DIYers and DIYers that pit designs against one another in a disrespectful manner based on a set of beliefs or metrics. 
 
short of delivering the "actual event" (impossible), everything in the audio chain is colored.  if your goal is to try to deliver the "real thing", you're going to rely on your ears and subjective impressions since no number on a scope be able to tell you this.  if you want "what's on the recording", you'll probably genuflect to measurements.  no matter what, it's what you like the best in the end, and as a DIYer you get to have control over this.  DIY shouldn't be about marketing and brainwashing a la hIGH eND.
 
regards.
 
 

That makes total sense to me, and I agree that fidelity to the "real thing" depends entirely on the quality of the recording as well (which varies dramatically).  I'd really like to think that someday, we'll have lots of faithful recordings, faithful DAC's, and faithful amps driving basically faithful headphones (or at least headphones that match up well with our ears).  Even if that's a pipe dream, I like to think of well-measuring amps as a good first step toward realizing it.  Anyway, I'm sorry if I was being disrespectful before.

 

[samsquanch]

Quote:

About the gain -> output stage coupling caps C13 and C14, different caps were already tested in various ways, and none of them tested were significantly different in performance.  Most selections that people would have concerns about regarding performance were tested, though I wouldn't be surprised if there were some aspects that are not detailed.

That being said, I really wish there was someone on this board wacky enough to put some ultra boutique caps in there, maybe something like Audio Note Silver/Mylar caps.....

 

[fishski13]

Quote:

That makes total sense to me, and I agree that fidelity to the "real thing" depends entirely on the quality of the recording as well (which varies dramatically).  I'd really like to think that someday, we'll have lots of faithful recordings, faithful DAC's, and faithful amps driving basically faithful headphones (or at least headphones that match up well with our ears).  Even if that's a pipe dream, I like to think of well-measuring amps as a good first step toward realizing it.  Anyway, I'm sorry if I was being disrespectful before.

no worries and i agree.  we're left at the mercy of piss-poor mastering, trying to get it to sound good.  the engineering/mastering quality is paramount.  everything else is a form of coloration.  

 

[kingpage]

Quote:

That makes total sense to me, and I agree that fidelity to the "real thing" depends entirely on the quality of the recording as well (which varies dramatically).  I'd really like to think that someday, we'll have lots of faithful recordings, faithful DAC's, and faithful amps driving basically faithful headphones (or at least headphones that match up well with our ears).  Even if that's a pipe dream, I like to think of well-measuring amps as a good first step toward realizing it.  Anyway, I'm sorry if I was being disrespectful before.

Someday, audiophiles will be saying how real-life it is, instead of how much better it is than real life. Albums will sound live without all the noises; games and movies will sound exactly like you're in them, not just similar.

 

[francisdemarte]

The technology for that had existed for decades. It will never happen. Audiophiles want colored sound and record coMpanies want sales, the majority of music liners don't care about quality.

 

[kingpage]

Not really. I was talking about simulated/virtual reality that's is indistinguishable from reality, in a double blind test. It is not possible for both visual and aural at this moment in time. Of course, when all is said and done, tactile feedback is also a key factor in virtual reality. Anyhow, you may argue, audio technology in many repects has come a bit closer with surround speakers and surround headphone; but video technology is following closely behind with 3D screens. Even the holodecks and holographic technology, which is not the same as real life but close enough, is only at the infant stage of academic research.

 

[wakibaki]

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I'd really like to think that someday, we'll have lots of faithful recordings, faithful DAC's, and faithful amps driving basically faithful headphones (or at least headphones that match up well. 

 
We do. The general standard of audio reproduction is very high, so high that it is taken as a given by the majority. It's easy to forget this in the hothouse atmosphere of audiophilia. Many people are happy to throw away some of the quality by using MP3s.
 
Absolute fidelity is not a requirement for the enjoyment of music. You get a lot of people here saying 'it's a POS', 'I couldn't listen to those' and so on but you need to bear in mind that 40-odd years ago we were listening to AM valve radios with open backs while the Beatles, Rolling Stones and others were making recordings that are still some of the most outstandingly enjoyable available now. We listened to those radios and old single-valve 'record players' with pathetic speakers despite their flaws with every bit as much enjoyment then as people get when listening now, sometimes more, I think, considering the amount of whingeing I hear now. 
 
I'm not saying that everything's perfect now, but there are lots of reproducers now that are close to flawless and it's not realistic to suggest otherwise.

 

[francisdemarte]

I guess there is some truth to things getting better. For example, I can't imagine going back to standard def TVs we had 10 years ago.

 

[firev1]

While we are on transparency, would anyone like to build this? 
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/headphone-systems/179298-wire-ultra-high-performance-headphone-amplifier-pcbs.html
It has pretty much some of the best specs I ever seen, extremely low noise floor, harmonic distortion and whatever. 
 
On topic: Gonna build mine soon, got the parts just waiting for the PCB. Still have problems finding a 230V to 14-20 VAC adapter that I can import or buy from my country though.

 

[SobbingWallet]

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While we are on transparency, would anyone like to build this? 
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/headphone-systems/179298-wire-ultra-high-performance-headphone-amplifier-pcbs.html
It has pretty much some of the best specs I ever seen, extremely low noise floor, harmonic distortion and whatever. 
 
On topic: Gonna build mine soon, got the parts just waiting for the PCB. Still have problems finding a 230V to 14-20 VAC adapter that I can import or buy from my country though.

WOW.  At a glance, The Wire sounds like the O2 on steroids.  (I haven't found the measurements yet, but I haven't looked hard either.)  It looks to be a bit more expensive but still very reasonable.  I'm surprised the thread has gotten so long (and gone on so long) at diyaudio without the apparent interest spilling over to this site!  When you say you're going to build yours soon, are you referring to the O2 or The Wire?

 

[Willakan]

I wouldn't say the O2 and The Wire are directly comparable. One is a little overkill to ensure audible accuracy, the other is total, off-the-wall overkill. The whole point of the O2 is that it isn't like The Wire - which is admittedly a spectacularly well-performing design.

 

[wakibaki]

 
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I wouldn't say the O2 and The Wire are directly comparable. One is a little overkill to ensure audible accuracy, the other is total, off-the-wall overkill. The whole point of the O2 is that it isn't like The Wire - which is admittedly a spectacularly well-performing design.

Interesting... overkill. That's not a word you see bandied around head-fi much. It's reassuring to see that other people have a similar view. I don't mind a bit of overkill myself, I'm building a couple of overkill (hopefully) amps at the moment and I might well build The Wire, although I saw interesting LME49600 PCBs on ebay, I can't see them now, but they had 4 x LME49600.
 
Yeah, I don't mind a bit of overkill, as long as it's realised that that is what it is. What really grinds my gears is when people start telling me they can hear the difference between these amps.
 
Don't you know I'm designing these to be indistinguishable? They're so good, you won't be able to tell the difference between these and various other well designed amps. And they're even (also) more expensive.What do you want for nothing?
 
In fact, I'm so impressed, I'm going to establish a class description, 'overkill amplifiers'.
 
You can still have competition between designs.
 
You can compete for features, style, miniaturisation, efficiency, battery life, ergonomics, design philosophy, aesthetics, robustness, ingenuity, value for money and doubtless other characteristics all considerably more healthy than the current set of values whereby amplifiers and other pieces of audio equipment are currently critiqued, such as 'detail', 'veiling', 'rhythm', 'speed' and a million other illlusory epithets, and none of which require either skill with measuring tools or hearing skills above the average.
 
That sentence is so complicated that I have to break it down into sections to understand what I wrote.
 
So here's to overkill, long may it flourish, and perhaps it can help us move the conversation onto a different level.
 
Hopefully we can routinely look forward to a situation where headphone amplifier reviews include reliable performance measurements or even where designer's own  reliable tests are published, but this will inevitably force a contraction in the variety of types in the marketplace and an escalation in prices.
 
Otherwise we are at the mercy of the market, The nwavguy has thrown down the gauntlet. Who can afford to pick it up?

 

[Paul Blythe]

Owen [OCR] has done a fantastic job with The Wire, it looks good & it's measurements look very good... Think he's working on a speaker amp version at the moment, that's on top of the three headphone versions and dedicated psu already done... Got my fingers crossed that I'll be able to get a se-se kit from the current GB.
 
Back to the O2, I hope to be doing a nice brushed Aluminium & Oak enclosure for mine over the coming weekend. My first attempt went wrong, but this time I've been able to borrow the right tools for the job.
 
If I'm unlucky with The Wire kit, I'll build a second O2 for use with my Acer W500 tablet as part of a trasportable rig. I'm keeping an eye on nwavguy's blog regarding cheap dac's, but I'd like a few recommendations regarding IEM's in the <£150 bracket.
 
Paul

 

[Twinster]

For the IEM I recommend you the Ortofon EQ5  if you like a balanced signature.
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Owen [OCR] has done a fantastic job with The Wire, it looks good & it's measurements look very good... Think he's working on a speaker amp version at the moment, that's on top of the three headphone versions and dedicated psu already done... Got my fingers crossed that I'll be able to get a se-se kit from the current GB.
 
Back to the O2, I hope to be doing a nice brushed Aluminium & Oak enclosure for mine over the coming weekend. My first attempt went wrong, but this time I've been able to borrow the right tools for the job.
 
If I'm unlucky with The Wire kit, I'll build a second O2 for use with my Acer W500 tablet as part of a trasportable rig. I'm keeping an eye on nwavguy's blog regarding cheap dac's, but I'd like a few recommendations regarding IEM's in the <£150 bracket.
 
Paul