O.T. Bass Preamp
Apr 26, 2002 at 11:36 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 15

Steven Everett

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I would like build a preamp and a portable speaker for an acoustic bass guitar. I've been looking around the internet and have not found any pages
explaining what needs to be done. Impedance is my first problem and I have not yet come to really understand it. Is it possible to use a headphone amp(maybe a Cmoy amps) as a preamp by changing the input impedance? My bass uses a piezo pickup and goes down to low E (I think 41hz). It has some active electronic built in but I don't know anything about them.
I've listen to a few commercial bass amps and cabinets but they do not have the sound I'm looking for. I do not want any distortion or muddy sound in the low notes. Could someone contact me privately or point me to a web page to help me?
steve

steve@everett.cc
 
Apr 29, 2002 at 8:47 PM Post #2 of 15
> a portable speaker for an acoustic bass guitar. ... I do not want any distortion or muddy sound in the low notes.

Speakers that can even equal the output of an upright acoustic bass are hardly "portable". They either weigh 200 pounds or they fall far short of reaching the fundamental of the low E. Traditional rock bass amps with 15 inch speakers and 2 cubic foot boxes rarely reach down to 50 Hz, and don't get strong until 80 Hz. That's inherent in the nature of air and low tones and huge waves. There is no small way to make large low-frequency waves.

What is an "acoustic bass guitar"? A Fender-Bass with a viola body?

-PRR
 
Apr 30, 2002 at 11:47 AM Post #3 of 15
Thanks PRR for the reply,
The speaker part of the project I can handle. I've been a Bass List subscriber for a few years and have built a few speakers already. My plan was to use 2-10" and a PR. Like you say you can't fight physics. A bass speaker is large and heavy. I will make it portable with wheels and handles not by decreasing size.
My really big problem, and where I'm stuck, is with the preamp. I do not want reverb, chorusing, or distortion. I want it to sound acoustical not electronical. I would like to build my own. I've heard bass amps are different creatures. They are what makes a bass sound like a bass. My thinking, and where I would like to experiment, is with a headphone amp. You guys have worked very hard at building amps that accurately raise the level of a sound. If I could change a headphone amp so that it would accept a lower input signal with a high impedance and then feed the headphone amp's output into a pro amp I might have what I need. My bass has a piezo pickup which, I've read, has some where between 1 and 10 megohm impedance. There are some active electronics built into the bass, 4 bands of EQing and volume control, but I don't think it has a buffering circuit. (I can't find any information on the Gibson Epiphone acoustic bass electronics) I've read two different views on impedance. One is to match impedances and the other is to have an infinitely high input impedance and a infinitely low output impedance. There has been a lot of talk at Head-Fi about buffering circuits and I thought I could match a headphone amp with the bass using one of them. I don't understand impedance and what it does when its off. I do know that my mixer is looking for a 2.5 Kohm input impedance and has a 120 ohm output impedance. My amps are looking for about 20 kohm input impedance. Any help you could give me in understanding all this would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve

Oh! By the way an acoustic bass guitar looks just like a big guitar. The volume is very low on these things so to play them you need some kind of amplification. It goes one octave lower than a guitar. The reason for an acoustic bass over just a bass when it needs amplified anyway? I play in a Celtic band and the group wouldn't let me play with something that looks electronic!
 
Apr 30, 2002 at 4:27 PM Post #4 of 15
you have a lot of options here.
Tube , JFET , MOSFET . FET input Op-amp

Something simple but possibly helpful can be found here
http://www.muzique.com/schem/mosfet.htm
While listed as a booster to add distortion it is just a clean gainstage.
Throw a 10K volume control right at the output and follow it with a power amp with an input of around 100k ohms adjust the gain for what you need and it should work.
If you need tone controls they can be added
hope this helps

Rick
 
Apr 30, 2002 at 4:39 PM Post #5 of 15
more..................

thinking some more on this , you need not only a preamp but a "bottom" and straight amp.

And since we are talking about amping an acoustic instrument you don't want a traditional guitar or bass amp which are ALL about tone and coloration.That is what gives each amp company its own "sound".

So the above preamp is still a good choice and could be built small enough to clip on a beltor even velcroed onto the actual instrument.
You then want to run this into a PA amp/speaker.Many choices here , even Radio Shack.
You can add low and high cut filters to tailor the frequency response thus saving amp power

Rick

BTW-you may also find this interesting ,just drop the amp section and add your ownhttp://hammer.ampage.org/files/PocketRockit.PDF

Like I said , many ways to go here
 
Apr 30, 2002 at 4:59 PM Post #6 of 15
OK, "portable" as in it can go to a gig, possibly in a car.

Some of the gang here walk the streets, ride the subways, or go camping with their headphones, and I feared you wanted high power at 42 Hz in a belt-pack. But it sounds like you want a clean modern custom B-15.

> One is to match impedances and the other is to have an infinitely high input impedance and a infinitely low output impedance.

Nobody has matched impedances since the 1950s.

And "infinite" is not only hard to get, it gives trouble.

The usual rule is that inputs should have impedances 10 times higher than outputs. Then, no matter what the actual impedance is, there is no more than 1 dB loss of level.

Historically we expect outputs to be 600 ohms or less, and un-matched inputs to be 20K or more. The IHF hi-fi spec suggests a 10K load for testing.

Ignoring "pickups" (microphones, phono cartridges, instrument pickups) and speakers, which have specific problems and needs, most electronics today work at "line level and impedance".

In hi-fi and semi-Pro audio, outputs have 100 to 1,000 ohms resistance but may not make full voltage into less than 2,000 ohms. Inputs have 10K to 100K resistance. Standard level is about 0.35 volts at 0 UV, 2 volts RMS maximum. Inputs coming from random "line level" sources should be able to amplify signals as low as 50-100 milliVolts or as high as 5-10 volts up/down to standard level.

The inputs and outputs on your mixer probably meet these specs. The 2.5K input does not sound like a line input-- you may be looking at the Mike input or they may be saying that the source device's output impedance should be less than 2.5K. The 120 ohm output impedance is typical, but I doubt it will make full power or lowest distortion into less than 600 ohms.

> There are some active electronics built into the bass, 4 bands of EQing and volume control, but I don't think it has a buffering circuit.

It must.

I assume it needs a battery. That means a transistor or chip. Once you have the active circuit, a low output impedance is natural.

Also, a piezo pickup can't feed more than a few feet of cable without loss of level, nor drive random inputs without severe loss of bass. They give you the active circuit so that the pickup is loaded in the very high impedance it needs, via short wires, and the pickup is buffered from the amplifier input.

Also, unless it is just a bass-cut, any significant EQ means several amplifiers and low impedance points. They would have to go to extra trouble to raise the output impedance.

> I've heard bass amps are different creatures. They are what makes a bass sound like a bass.

The high-quality no-frill bass amps I've looked into seem a LOT like hi-fi amps with a little extra gain. No tone-shaping like a guitar amp has, plain Baxendall tone controls that can be set dead-flat, plain transistor power amp without tailored distortion.

So if you have a light clean PA amp, and have ample EQ on the axe, you just need some flat voltage gain. The line input on a mixer would do that, as proof-of-concept. If all you need to do is run up the gain, don't need to trim the mixer's tone controls, a simple op-amp booster would do the same in a candy-tin.

The "problem" with many of the designs posted here is that they float the ground so they work on a single battery without using large output capacitors. For driving a power amp, the required capacitor isn't a problem.

Is this thing mono or stereo?

> My plan was to use 2-10"

Traditionally not enough for Bass; note that even a Fender Twin Guitar amp uses two Twelves for cone area and efficiency. But your "traditional" band is un-traditional in electric-band terms, so it may do quite nicely. Also, Tens are better than ever, but still can't circumvet physics. If you ask for large bass power, the midrange will get fuzzy.

-PRR
 
May 1, 2002 at 12:18 PM Post #7 of 15
Thanks guys for the help,
Rick, those sites are excellent. I couldn't find anything like those using search engines. After hearing you guys explain things I think I'll go back and build a Headwize amp, maybe "The Morgan Jones Mini Tube Headphone Amplifier" by Chu Moy.
PRR, you understand me correctly. By portable I mean that I can move it around myself. My friend lent me a bass amp that took 2 guys to move. My idea of the ideal speaker cabinet would be one in the shape of a pyramid (but only 3 sides and the top flat) a little bigger than a five gallon bucket. There would be drivers on each side and an amp built inside. It would be a full range speaker and the top would have 4 input with mixing controls. (bass, midi drum, synthesizer, and a cd player) Mostly this speaker would be use for practice (sound radiating all the way around it) but if I included a line out I could take it to concerts and send a signal to the sound man.

<Nobody has matched impedances since the 1950s.>

This is the most important information you could have given me. I've been searching for months for some kind of sense in this whole impedance thing but because of mixed answers I've been driven away from understanding and towards confusion. I've talked to musicians E.E. and have read many web pages looking for understanding but there has been none. Your reply is a keeper.


<The inputs and outputs on your mixer probably meet these specs. The 2.5K input does not sound like a line input-- you may be looking at the Mike input or they may be saying that the source device's output impedance should be less than 2.5K. The 120 ohm output impedance is typical, but I doubt it will make full power or lowest distortion into less than 600 ohms.>

I use the Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro. It's specifications state: Impedances mic in: 1.3 kilohms, Channel Insert: 2.5 kilohms, All other inputs: 10 Kilohms or greater. You could be right I'm using the ¼" inputs not the XRL.


<I assume it needs a battery. That means a transistor or chip. Once you have the active circuit, a low output impedance is natural.>

Again, you are correct. My bass uses a 9 volt battery. I have trouble getting any volume out of the amps I plug the bass into so I assumed it was a high impedance.

<The high-quality no-frill bass amps I've looked into seem a LOT like hi-fi amps with a little extra gain.>

This is just the good news I wanted to hear. That means I can make my own system and get a good sound!

<Is this thing mono or stereo?>

It is mono, I think, I've not tried a stereo plug into it. I planed to build only a mono amp.

Once again, thanks a lot for the help guys.
steve
 
May 1, 2002 at 1:01 PM Post #8 of 15
sounds like a straight X10 gain stage is really all you will need.And the chu moy pocket amp will suffice as will a simple jfet or mosfet gain stage running off a single 9 volt battery.
The main points you need to pay attention to are
1-Noise level
2-RF interference

The noise level MUST be low due to every gain stage following the preamp will amplify the noise by a factor of its own gain (i.e -if the following amplifying stage has 20 db gain the noise will ALSO be amplified by 20 db).So the op-amp chosen should be chosen to have very low noise even over some other specs.

RF filtering is required in a "live" environment.All kinds of stray interference can be floating around and you do not want to ruin a performance due to buzzing and popping.This can go from simple capacitor bypasses in the input circuit and feedback loop , ferrite beads ,or the ultimate (read expensive) transformer coupling with cap bypasses.

If interested I can probably get links to some good info to you

Rick
 
May 2, 2002 at 11:57 AM Post #9 of 15
Thanks Rick, I would be interested in any links you find about RF filtering.

After our discussion yesterday I plug my bass into my Szekeres (it is a DC-coupled gain stage version) and then into my mixer. There was still no volume, and some noise. I then listen to the bass through the Szekeres and into my Grado headphones. I hear hum, static, and low volume. At full volume level I can hear the bass clearly but not too loud. With a CD it would blow out my ears but with the bass the volume is at a level you would listen music at in a quite room while working on something. (low enough not to distract you) Do you guys think I have active electronic problems or is this normal?

<Nobody has matched impedances since the 1950s.>
PRR, I've been thinking about this and I'm somewhat confused. You stated in another message that power changes at various impedances. I have heard this in my headphones. My Grado's are much louder than my AKG's. I've also discovered that I can not plug a microphone directly into my Tascam cassette recorders' mic inputs. I must use a XRL line transformer or it won't work. Could you go into a little more detail about not matching impedances?

Thanks again guys,
steve
 
May 2, 2002 at 7:54 PM Post #10 of 15
> <Nobody has matched impedances since the 1950s.> PRR, I've been thinking about this and I'm somewhat confused. You stated in another message that power changes at various impedances. I have heard this in my headphones. My Grado's are much louder than my AKG's. I've also discovered that I can not plug a microphone directly into my Tascam cassette recorders' mic inputs. I must use a XRL line transformer or it won't work. Could you go into a little more detail about not matching impedances?

"Matched" impedances means that outputs are 600 ohms and inputs are 600 ohms.

I should have said that this is still done at RF frequencies. Up there, any wire more than a few feet long will cause reflections unless the source, cable, and load are all the same impedance. Cables are mostly 50 or 75 ohms, so sources and loads are 50 or 75 ohms. The nearest example is your Cable TV system. If you could find a simple "Y" splitter and fed 2 or 3 TV sets from their 75 ohm source and cable, you would have ghosts on the screen. Each strong vertical object would show an echo a millimeter or so to the right. With a long cable and bad mismatch, you get a series of light and dark bands to the right of everything. (You would also have a reduction in level, see below, although TV sets will compensate this up to a point.)

In audio, you would need miles of cable to cause this effect, because audio frequencies as electric in space or in copper are miles long. Only long-line systems need to match to control cable effects. Classic telephone lines were 900 ohms (open-pair) or 150 ohms (multi-pair cables). Telephone transmitters and receivers were 100 to 900 ohms. They didn't go for true matching, they tried to minimize the difference between a short line and a long line. For dedicated lines that would be trimmed to precise levels, impedances of 150 and 600 ohms were common and they usually did load the far end of the line to about the same as the source impedance.

Another reason RF systems are "matched" is that gain is expensive. An amplifier always has an input impedance and an output impedance, and requires real power (if only microwatts) at its input. You get the most power transfer from output to next input if both impedances are matched.

Worked example:

If you have an output that makes 1 volt behind 1 ohm, and you hang a 1 ohm load on it, the voltage at the load is 0.5 volts. The power at the load is 0.25 watts.

If you feed the same output into a 10 ohm load, the voltage at the load is 0.909 volts. The power at the load is 0.083 watts.

If you feed the same output into a 0.1 ohm load, the voltage at the load is 0.0909 volts. The power at the load is 0.083 watts.

Power into various loads from 1V 1 ohm:

_ 10 ohms = 0.083W
__ 1 ohm = 0.250W
_ 0.1 ohm = 0.083W

When power is precious, matching matters.

In modern audio, the situation is different. Gain is relatively cheap. Feedback means the small-signal impedance is different from the native impedance of the device.

And matching is a problem when you want to split a signal to two loads. This may be the main speaker amp plus a tape recorder. Much bigger splits are often done.

With that 1 volt 1 ohm source, with one 1 ohm load you get 0.5 volts. With two 1 ohm loads in parallel, each load gets 0.33 volts, a significant 3.5dB drop in level. Cutting one of those loads in and out will audibly effect the music. Hang 10 of those loads, the drop is 14.8 dB, a major drop. Level management gets messy when you have a varying number of "matched" loads.

no loads = 1 volt
1 load === 0.50 volts
3 loads == 0.25 volts
10 loads = 0.09 volts

The classic broadcast solution was to build amps with 20K input impedances. This does not increase the cost much, if at all. (In fact, after 1927, "600 ohm input" amps were usually 50K input plus a 601 ohm resistor.) If the source were 600 ohms at 1 volt with one permanent 600 ohm resistor on it, this is what you get with various numbers of 20K amps Y-ed across it:

no loads = 0.5 volts
1 load === 0.493 volts
3 loads == 0.478 volts
10 loads = 0.435 volts

From 1 to 10 loads, the change is only 1.2 dB, inaudible. (Actually such systems would often use the 150 ohm connection, and 0 to 30 loads connected gives less than 1 dB drop.)

Alternatively, you can stop buying 600-ohm amps and get amps with "zero"-ohm output impedance. Amps with negative feedback usually have a super low output impedance, and have to be padded-up with a resistor to meet 600-ohm specs. Using a 1 volt zero ohm source, the level with any number of loads would be 1 volt. Using a more typical 50 ohm source, 0 to 10 20K loads gives 1V to 0.98V, only a 0.2 dB drop.

So an un-matched system, where load impedance is very much higher than source impedance, is much more versatile. The drawback, that lines are not loaded in the cable impedance, does not matter for audio in lines less than a mile long.

Also, an un-matched interface gives the full source voltage, rather than half-voltage as a matched interface gives. The amp input gets less current and power if it is high impedance, but current and power gain is cheap in modern amplifiers (tubes approach infinite current gain, and transistors are dirt cheap compared to the chassis you put them in). Working with constant voltage levels is much simpler than trying to compute a system that matches for best power transfer.

You had specific observations and I have drifted. And my boss wants me to do some work. Reply and I'll ramble some more, maybe say why you need a transformer (not truly a "matching" transformer) between a 150 ohm dynamic mike and a typical cassette input.

-PRR
 
May 2, 2002 at 9:46 PM Post #11 of 15
> With a CD it would blow out my ears but with the bass the volume is at a level you would listen music at in a quite room while working on something.

The output of a 'lectric guitar is 10mV to 100mV. The output of a home CD deck is 2V (2,000mV). That's 26-46 dB difference, which is indeed the difference between blow-out loud and background sound.

I was hoping to find simple plans or even a kit, rather than try to invent something. I'm not coming up with much.

Have a look at this:

http://www.hobbytron.net/vk4102.html

Guitar Headphone and Preamp Kit $27.95 V-K4102

VK4102.jpg


An electric guitar can now be connected to a normal amplifier or audio system without further ado. This pre-amplifier is eminently suited for solving all your problems in this respect, and in addition a headphone output is also provided to allow you to practice in silence. The pre-amplifier is fitted with a special tone control allowing you to chose your own sound.


Sonic quality is questionable, and there are few specs and no details. And it is VERY odd that I can't see the 1/4" jack a guitar needs. (Reading the reflection of the front panel in the case lid, it looks like you are supposed to plug your axe into an RCA jack???) However, the $28 price is a steal if it finds any use, or if it can be modded into what you want. And it is really a Velleman kit: these are usually good if not great.

I suspect/hope that you can jack your guitar into this box, jack this box into a power amp and speaker, twiddle the volume and tone, and get OK sound. If you get it and post the op-amp type and maybe a schematic, and how it works for you, folks here can suggest better chips and other mods.

-PRR
 
May 2, 2002 at 10:15 PM Post #12 of 15
[ Quote:

After our discussion yesterday I plug my bass into my Szekeres (it is a DC-coupled gain stage version) and then into my mixer. There was still no volume, and some noise. I then listen to the bass through the Szekeres and into my Grado headphones. I hear hum, static, and low volume. At full volume level I can hear the bass clearly but not too loud. With a CD it would blow out my ears but with the bass the volume is at a level you would listen music at in a quite room while working on something. (low enough not to distract you) Do you guys think I have active electronic problems or is this normal?


simple gain problem as stated by PRR.Plug a walkman into your big rig and you will most likely observe the same problems with noise/hum/volume.
Again the remedy is a striaght gain stage with 20 db of gain (X10)

Just got in from work so will get back to ya on the links ninesh or so

rick
 
May 6, 2002 at 9:52 PM Post #13 of 15
> I can not plug a microphone directly into my Tascam cassette recorders' mic inputs. I must use a XRL line transformer or it won't work.

"Won't work"? I hate that phrase.

I bet it "works" if you shout into the microphone.

For historical reasons, microphones come in various levels and nominal impedances.

The average "low-Z XLR" dynamic microphone, at 74 dB SPL, makes about 0.2 mV of signal.

The average mike shipped with 1/4 plug (sometimes called High-Z) makes 0.5 to 1.5 mV of signal at the same acoustic level.

Many recorders with 1/4" inputs are more suited for the higher output of the "hi-Z" mikes. In loud situations, they may do fine with a lo-Z mike, but in softer situations they will need more level. Because they are lo-Z, a step-up transformer can be used. The usual one is 1:7 step-up, so a 150 ohm mike appears as a 7,400 ohm source. The 1/4" inputs are usually 20K or 50K, so this isn't "matched", just a voltage and impedance step-up.

> My Grado's are much louder than my AKG's.

At the same power? Voltage? Current? Impedance? Without knowing these things, that statement only applies to your specific amplifier.

Considering the wide difference in impedance between most Grados and most AKGs, I suspect that the Grado is louder from a low-Z amp, the AKGs louder from a hi-Z amp.

-PRR
 
May 7, 2002 at 11:26 AM Post #14 of 15
Thanks for the reply,

< "Won't work"? I hate that phrase. >

I am jumping to a conclusion that I shouldn't. I did not do any testing. I plugged in a Sure 57 (I used a cable with XRL on one end and a ¼ ring tip sleeve on the other) and turned up the gain on the tape recorder; no signal at the meters. I replaced the cable with XRL's on both ends and added the transformer. It worked. I didn't trying shouting into the mic or anything else. I didn't realize these things stepped up the voltage. I bought them as just an adapter to change XRL to ¼". I'm now wondering what they do to audio?

ØMy Grado's are much louder than my AKG's.

Once again no testing. I have a WalkMan type cd player at work. I used the AKG 240M to listen to cd's. I couldn't get them to play loud enough so that sent me searching for a headphone amp. After running into the guys a HeadWize I learned how to build a headphone amp and became interested in a headphone named Grado. I bought one and to my surprise it plays loud enough that I didn't need an amp. I don't know if it is a hi-Z or low-Z amp but it is the same amp for both headphones.

As you can tell I don't understand impedance. I've been blaming my problems on impedance mismatching and it sounds like there is more to it than that. How can I check the impedance of these devices? Will a digital multimeter check the low voltages of microphone and cd players?

Thanks,
steve
 
May 7, 2002 at 6:17 PM Post #15 of 15
> I've been blaming my problems on impedance mismatching and it sounds like there is more to it than that.

We always mis-match. 1K sources feed 100K loads.

What matters is Voltage. Compare the source's output voltage to the load's input voltage.

For devices working with pre-massaged signals, such as tape and CD Players. the peak output signal is pretty well known. The recording engineer usually sets the loudest peak to "Maximum".

Working with available signals is a little more scattered. Even LP records: they vary considerably in peak recorded velocity, and different needles have different outputs for the same groove velocity. Live music is really wild: Harpsichord at 20 feet may be well under 74dB SPL, while tympani at 4 feet may exceed 120 dB SPL. Combined with various microphone interface levels, you can see less than 0.000,1V (0.1mV) or more than 3V (3,000mV) at a microphone's output pin(s).

BTW: my helper uses SM57 through a 1/4" adaptor to record Jazz Band into a cassette recorder. Levels are fine... wish he knew the difference between mono and stereo.

When you are a little short of Voltage, and have a LOT of impedance difference, a transformer is a simple answer. SM-57 is about 100 ohms, cassette deck MIC in is about 50,000 ohms. A 1:22 transformer would "match" and give 11:1 of voltage gain. However, the impedance of a microphone is not constant at all frequencies. Some are close, some are not. The standard load for microphones is "much higher than rated impedance", and that usually gives the designed response. A 1:7 transformer (like Radio Shack's XLR-1/4" lump) into 50K gives a 1K load on the mike (pretty high), 6.3:1 of voltage gain, and that does get you out of a gain-hole without more power warts.

> I'm now wondering what they do to audio?

Good Question. My measurements on the RS XLR lump say it isn't bad and will take levels much higher than you need to drive a cassette deck Mic In. But I've never done critical listening on it.

> How can I check the impedance of these devices? Will a digital multimeter check the low voltages of microphone and cd players?

No. Careless use of an OhmMeter on microphones will blow them up. EV 635 can be measured with an ohmmeter: it will survive and give a pretty close answer. However an SM57 has a transformer inside it (the mike capsule is about 10 ohms and they transform that up to 100 ohms for standard mike line levels), so you will be measuring the transformer's DC impedance, not the mike's AC impedance. And putting an ohmmeter on a ribbon microphone will often pop the ribbon and ruin an expensive microphone.

Testing input and output impedances is rarely needed, and would be an essay of its own. Most spec sheets have clues, though they may be cryptic. Generally, at least in hi-fi and semi-pro recording, things just work if you don't go using adaptors without understanding the customs.

-PRR
 

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