[Edwood]

Wow, looks tiny. Sounds like it will be a killer DAC/amp.

If only it had an optical input as well, it would be perfect pair with the iRiver iHP-120/140.

And I thought no air conditioning hot as hell meets were a SoCal tradition.

-Ed

 

[Voltron]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrarroyo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Was the Reference a Beta version? If so does anyonenknow when it was made (May, June, July, or August)? I ask because there has been a very significant changes done to the amp. Thanks.

I don't know the vintage, but Dr. Xin sent it to Rhythmdevils the day before the meet. If he has a newer version, it would seem likely he sent the newest one.

 

[909]

ASR ran a fantastic meet. Craig, Justin, and Ray were amazing doing the trip thing to get there, very cool. Glad Mikhail made it safe, though, I wish he arrived during the meet.

Overall meets offer gear buffet satisfaction and gobbling audio goodness. Impression is the optimum word since these are pretty immediate ideas, feelings, opinions formed under quick, dirty, and loud listening conditions coupled with the usual unfamiliarity with one or possibly more things. As in life sometimes things take time to appreciate or understand and ultimately come into focus and usually most ears aren't lickety-split in this regard. When I listen to recorded music I usually desire a litany of things, but if I had to concentrate it I want to feel and believe. I listen because I seriously enjoy music and not necessarily so to dissect it. With that said, here's my listening impressions...

Singlepower room (great A/C nice and cool):
I walked in having very high expectations for the SP top line stuff. Yet to my disappointment most, if not all, had some sort of technical difficulty or issue. What I did hear didn't wow me over, but still offered a very musical experience. Though, in all fairness I would have liked to hear it after Mikhail worked on them, possibly more familiar components in the chain would have been nice, and tracks I liked or at least knew.

K-1000 / Eddie Current room (hot as hell--no A/C):


foo_me's rig (zanden,emm labs, exposed K-1000 drivers) really surprised me. I've heard the K-1000s many times before and I usually have a cold response to them. However, I believe his rig takes the K-1000s to a level I've not experienced before. It seems as if the zanden breathed life and feeling into them and the glorious 300Bs offers a warm touch of character. The emm labs source flooded my ear with details and nuances I've never imagined possible on such an open can especially under meet conditions, though, the K-1000/EC room had been relatively quiet. I suppose I am so use to physically feeling vibrations from the way most headphones rest over the ear that the K-1000s still feel detached or more like speakers, but this rig got me feeling and believing in a relatively short time; the first meet wow.

I didn't spend much time with the new Lunch Box II, only a bit more with the Red Top and the HD-2, mainly because I had been chatting away with John and Craig.

Lunch Box II
Moth DAC / L3000s:
The Lunch Box II really has a nice musical no fuss sound quality. I liked with the flick of a switch I could listen to my low impedance headphones on the fly. It just had a great effortlessly sonic unpretentious presences, but still biting with great attack and decay. Based on memory, I'd say it's a good improvement over the first Lunch Box.

Red Top
Moth DAC / L3000s:
The Red Top circuit board propped upon the chassis as a visual demo was just very cool and a neat touch. The amp had precision detail while still sounding organic and certainly not at all saturating, but provided a humanistic warmth and wonderful textures. It seems to improve upon the last EC/SS verison I heard, primarily more air around the instruments or simply put better separation also the soundstage extended further in all perceivable directions (up, down, left to right).

HD-2
iMac / PS-1s & L3000s:
It's a rare occurrence I listen to a computer based source and say that sounds good and even rarer to say great. I would say this falls on the latter. I believe it had a lot to do with the recording quality and the amp. The HD-2 just flat out holds no punches. It's organic, but still extremely precise. It has the ZD sonic signature and soundstage, but does it in a bit more natural and effortless way; really nice sound.


The Main Room (A/C only by Ray and Justin's table nice and cool, but elsewhere mild to warm):

Technics RS-1500 reel-to-reel
Zana Deux / L3000s & AD2000s:
one word--WOW. This had to be the most musical and emotionally moving listening experience I've encountered. It's extremely rare I can listen to unfamiliar music and feel so moved and hang on every note, wishing it not end. The master tape had an utter breathtaking realism that everything else just melted away. It doesn't do it justice to use audiophile terms, which usually best describe an artificial attempt at replicating sound. Dare I say it, the closest to the real deal--like being in the studio on the musicians side of the glass. While listening I had goosebumps, walking away I had goosebumps, a bit later talking about it I got goosebumps or even thinking about it right now I am relishing the moment and sighing long and hard because I don't know when something so emotionally intense can happen again.

AMB's B22
Computer source / L3000s & HD600s:
There are only a handful of solid state amps I could potentially even think about buying and wanting to own long term and this just got added to my short list. This amp easily ranks up there with the likes of the dynahi possibly even bettering it, yet I would need more time to make such a bold claim. The B22 walks an extremely fine line offering an analytical, technical and albeit precise presentation, but never losing the emotional feel and beautiful musical splendor with an ever so slight organic and warm undercurrent. Overall an amazing sounding amp.

Ray's Table (RS AUDIO):
As usual Ray's table is near perfection. He had the B-52, Apache, Raptor, and what looked like every color Hornet and Tomahawk he offers. His 508.24 source pumping the beautiful music and so many excellent headphones like the HD600, R10s, and Qualia 010. Then you have Ray inviting everyone and anyone to enjoy his offerings.

Apache
508.24 / Ayre CX-7e / L3000s & HD600s:
I think the Apache is a very appealing looking amp. I am not a fan of the bright gold accents, but overall it's a very beautiful and clean looking chassis design and can't forget the very cool name. I also liked the tactile experience when I plugged in and adjusted the volume dial. When it came to my first listen I had the L3000s and didn't spend much time listening primarily because I heard/felt an uncomfortable pitch/frequency or hotness in the higher register. Previously with the Raptor I had a similar experience I thought it might be the source or possibly a combination, but now I've experienced this same phenomenon with the Apache and the 508.24 and CX-7e. I won't say the Apache is not a good sounding amp, but ultimately the sound does little to impress me or makes me feel or believe. I had a better experience on my third brief session with the HD600s, probably because those cans are a bit laidback, veiled and don't reach as high or as revealing as the L3000s.

B-52
508.24 / L3000s:
I had a somewhat similar listening experience with the B-52 though I preferred it over the Apache, yet it still left me uninspired.

Justin's table (HEADAMP):

KGSS DX
Arcam / O2s:
During my brief listen, I thought it sounded very good. I just couldn't get a good handled over it because the noises at the time seemed a feverous pitch when I tried listening to it.

Pico with built in DAC
MacBook USB / L3000s, HD650s, & K701s:
Before I heard Justin's new portable amp with built in DAC I pretty much wrote off portable amps. Point blank, the Pico knocked my socks off and won me over. Much like the sound coming from foo_me's K-1000, the Pico is the new gold standard all portable amp should be judged by and additionally has taken portable headphone amps to a level I've never imagined possible. The Pico is the most state of the art portable I've seen and an absolute engineering marvel. As previously mentioned I am not a fan of computer based sources, but the Pico with it's built in DAC off the MacBook USB engaged me and drew me into the music unlike any portable before. Amazingly, I never felt like it made much of any compromises because of it's diminutive size. Every headphone I threw at it just worked with the flip of a small gain switch. It clearly articulated details without that usual loss that most, if not all, of the other portable amps can't achieve. The Pico is something that really wowed not even primarily because of it's size and features, but most importantly its superb sound and factor in the tiny integrated package--it's unbelievable.

Headphones


Sony Qualia 010:
Even with two pairs on hand neither provided a good seal. I even gingerly tried to compensate by applying my hands to improve the seal, but to no avail. Overall, I walked away thinking why did Sony design such finicky fitting headphone. I hope one day to hear the 010 with a proper fit, but at this point I am not terribly impressed with them.

Edition 9s:
There are some things that just don't fit right or feel uncomfortable or don't sound right, the E9s were like that for me. The small amount of padding or lack there of on the headband and the way it pressed on my head wasn't initially painful, though not pleasurable. I suspect I couldn't wear them for long, but didn't try to find out either. The leather earcups were supple, but the clamping action had to be the most pressure I've ever felt from a headphone. My initial reaction, I prefer the L3000s not only because they are far more comfortable, but most importantly they sound superior with a more balanced and realistic presentation.

 

[holland]

It was my first meet, and it was good. I got a chance to listen to many things in the main room and didn't go to the other rooms because I forgot about them after I settled in. Too bad, I really wanted to hear the Ori setup as his DAC is the only thing I'm considering buying (vs DIY Opus), where as I will probably build the amps.

I was very pleased with the sound of the Beta22. It's so significantly better, IMO, that I must have it when I feel confident in building it. The Mini3 challenge was interesting, it was easy to pick out the difference in bass (I found the extended version to have more), but I wasn't familiar with the music and every other aspect was difficult. Hopefully I'll have a portable source next time. I didn't think there would be so many CDPs there, so maybe I'll bring CDs next time at least. The only person that had anything remotely similar to what I like to listen to was Iron_Dreamer. For some reason I found the Mini-DAC to be extremely bright and I didn't agree with the L3000, the closed in presentation was a bit off-putting.

The Ed9s, wow, talk about the bass. The impact is tremendous, with the Dream Theater CD I borrowed from Kramer5150. If only they were 1/3 the price.

Everything in the main room sounded great. I don't think there was a setup that I really disliked in any way. Lots of Senns, GS1000s, and 701s, but they all did great in their respective setups. The R10, which I never heard before, sounded great, as did the GS1000s. The GS1000 seemed different than other Grado phones I heard. I never read the GS1000 threads, so I don't know if that's expected or not.

I agree with everybody else. The Pico is going to be killer. I wonder if it will work on all USB setups. I wonder if some marginal cheapo motherboards may have issues supplying the juice. It's so tiny (credit card size or smaller), and so chock full of goodness.

I didn't get a chance to talk to HeadAmp, they were almost never at the table whenever I stopped by, except for when I was listening to the Pico. Was that young person the founder? If so, very impressive.

Ray Samuels' setup was great. I didn't spend much time with the B52, but the Apache was very nice. Most everything was out of my price range though.

 

[Icarium]

909 you probably mean B-52 on Ray's table ;p

 

[rhythmdevils]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrarroyo /img/forum/go_quote.gif Was the Reference a Beta version? If so does anyonenknow when it was made (May, June, July, or August)? I ask because there has been a very significant changes done to the amp. Thanks.

I believe the reference is the current model. Im going to send xin an email asking him, but he sent the micro, mini and reference about a week ago, so i think its pretty safe to assume that he sent the most recent versions of all the amps.

I think I actually preferred the micro to the reference. it seemed more open and involving. But the micro looks as if it has been used, as the lettering is a bit worn, and the reference looks brand spankin new. But I'll ask xin about this too, and post here about it.

Im also going to try burning them both in some more, and do more listening and maybe post some impressions....but the micro is really blowing my mind so far

 

[episiarch]

Once again, a HUGE thanks to Asr for organizing this extraordinarily enjoyable (and well-organized meet). And to sleestack, who if I'm not mistaken did a good deal as well to make it possible.

I will keep my listening remarks brief.

HeadAmp pico amp: I echo everything good that's been said about this little wonder. Absolutely a first-class achievement.

Mini-cubed: I was very pleasantly surprised by this amp; surprised because I thought it sounded great, and the two other 8397-based amps I own have never pleased me very much. I mentioned this to amb who acknowledged that "it's hard to make the 8397 happy." His design seems to have made the 8397 quite happy indeed, and I recommend it very highly.

Jays d-JAYS: This was the surprise of the meet for me. I truly liked this earphone, which I'd describe sonically as not unlike a less-isolating, easier-to-drive ER6. Very high SQ for not much money, and a fit that will probably work well for people who find deeper-fitting earphones uncomfortable (or too slow to insert/remove). I've ordered my pair. (As for the q-JAYS (I think they were the q-JAYS), they were not my thing, being too Triple-fi-esque in their presentation, with emphasized tizz in the highs, and the mids a bit too far down in the mix for my kind of music.)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer /img/forum/go_quote.gif A switchbox comparison of the Transporter and Squeezebox (analog outputs) as well as a Lavry DA10 was interesting. The differences were less significant that one might have expected, but I wonder how much potential difference was um.......covered up by the HD650 and Aria? At any rate, it did make the Squeezebox look like quite a competant analog source for a mid-level system.

That we were able to demonstrate to a number of people that the Squeezebox is a quite competitive source when heard with that sort of mid-range gear is, I think, a very worthwhile outcome of the experiment all by itself since it provides some basis for folks operating in that $300-$400-per-component price category to prioritize their next purchase. In my personal opinion, in that price category the next upgrade is not, as some have contended, a DPS for the Squeezebox, an external DAC for the Squeezebox, or a pricier source altogether, but now others have heard the SB/SB+Lavry/Transporter comparison for themselves and can make up their own minds.

That said, I think there is plenty of validity to the question, "what would this comparison yield if we went up a level or two in the amp and/or headphones?" Although I should not speak for Grahame, I have very high confidence that if the proposed Marin Meet 2.0 takes place, the same collection of sources and switch will be there, and that loans of higher-end amps and 'phones will be looked on with favor. We can also go a bit further in ensuring that the cables from all sources are equivalent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by n4k33n /img/forum/go_quote.gif Did anyone pick up a pair of sunglasses? I think I left mine there.

Check with rjkdivin. He and his wife were sort of guarding a pair that had wound up on the floor near the door.

 

[909]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icarium /img/forum/go_quote.gif 909 you probably mean B-52 on Ray's table ;p

oops--definitely

(thanks)

 

[stevenkelby]

Any direct comparisons on the Reference and Pico, without using the Picos DAC?

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwood /img/forum/go_quote.gif Wow, looks tiny. Sounds like it will be a killer DAC/amp. If only it had an optical input as well, it would be perfect pair with the iRiver iHP-120/140. And I thought no air conditioning hot as hell meets were a SoCal tradition. -Ed

Killer is indeed the word. As much as one like ourselves might wish it had an optical input for the iHP-120, the fact that it offers mini-3 sound quality in a sub-Tomahawk form factor is pretty damned impressive. I believe Justin intends to offer another amp which will have SPDIF input, and a battery for the DAC. But damn if the size of the Pico isn't tempting.

I was surprised when I walked into the main meet room and found that it had no central climate control, only a dinkly little A/C intended for a hotel room 25%> the size. But Justin did what he could to keep that thing cranking!

Quote:

Originally Posted by holland /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with everybody else. The Pico is going to be killer. I wonder if it will work on all USB setups. I wonder if some marginal cheapo motherboards may have issues supplying the juice.

I doubt that would be the case. As I understand it, motherboards must be capable of supplying a specified standard amount of power to the USB bus. Considering the regulation the Pico does, quality of said power isn't much of a concern. But then again, who knows if eMachines or PC Chips decided to make a motherboard with crippled USB power amongst other computational sins?

Quote:

Originally Posted by episiarch /img/forum/go_quote.gif That said, I think there is plenty of validity to the question, "what would this comparison yield if we went up a level or two in the amp and/or headphones?"

Given your previous paragraph, which enlightened the comparison in a context I hadn't quite yet imagined, my doubts about the downstream gear are somewhat mitigated. If one is going to be using components in that general price range, I think the comparison is pretty darn valid, and shows that the Squeezebox is a perfectly adequate source for such situations. Just as it would probably be silly to use a Transporter with "only" and Aria and HD650's, it would probably be equally as silly to use a Squeezebox with a B22. Now if you can come up with a test showing the latter to be false, I guess it's time for Meridian and Wadia to go design toasters

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevenkelby /img/forum/go_quote.gif Any direct comparisons on the Reference and Pico, without using the Picos DAC?

I really doubt it, for the reason that the Pico was constantly tethered to Justin's laptop (as it really wouldn't be prudent for folks to put a caseless prototype through the unplugging, replugging, and other general torture associated with the A/B of portable amps).

 

[mrarroyo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhythmdevils /img/forum/go_quote.gif I believe the reference is the current model. Im going to send xin an email asking him, but he sent the micro, mini and reference about a week ago, so i think its pretty safe to assume that he sent the most recent versions of all the amps. I think I actually preferred the micro to the reference. it seemed more open and involving. But the micro looks as if it has been used, as the lettering is a bit worn, and the reference looks brand spankin new. But I'll ask xin about this too, and post here about it. Im also going to try burning them both in some more, and do more listening and maybe post some impressions....but the micro is really blowing my mind so far

I can tell you the tiny letters on the Supermicro sometimes do not look perfect. The Reference if it has the 15,000 or the 22,000 uF caps will need at least 400 hours of burn in but 600 would be better. The change of the amp is very significant, I hope you let it burn in and then compare them again to decide which is the best.

IMO the Supermicr IV w/ the post 4/11 sounds better than my old (May, 2007) Beta Reference. However 3 months have gone by and quite a few mods have been implemented on the Reference to the point mine would not sound anything like one of the new ones.

Good luck and look forward to you review in three weeks.

 

[vcoheda]

when will the Pico be available and how much will it retail for with the DAC?

 

[Asr]

Justin's fliers said "Fall 2007," and he mentioned $500.

 

[vcoheda]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asr /img/forum/go_quote.gif Justin's fliers said "Fall 2007," and he mentioned $500.

thanks for the info.

 

[Asr]

Oh and Justin also mentioned it would use the same polished chassis as the AE-2. And it will have two-way gain. And about 20-hour battery life. Those are some nice features for something that small.