[Camomille]

Hello there,

I've been using my HD650 with a portable amp (Headstage Arrow) for a few years now and I'm currently planning on investing in a more serious headphone amp' to improve my listening experience. So firstly: is it even relevant to invest more? Maybe the Arrow already provides the best I can get from these cans?
I'm not really sure what to pick since I'm sorta on a budget (can't really spend more than 300 bucks).
I've been looking on online stores but also second hands deals (I live in France) and these caught my attention:

https://bottlehead.com/product/crack-otl-headphone-amplifier-kit/
https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/1556502757.htm/ (dude listed for 10e but it appears to be a mistake since he declares "expecting realistic offers")
https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/1556259910.htm/
https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/1544476962.htm/

What's your opinion about all these? Should I eventually try to bargain with these sellers, or just look elsewhere?

Thanks for your help!

Camomille

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I've been using my HD650 with a portable amp (Headstage Arrow) for a few years now and I'm currently planning on investing in a more serious headphone amp' to improve my listening experience. So firstly: is it even relevant to invest more? Maybe the Arrow already provides the best I can get from these cans?

The Headstage Arrow outputs 7V peak to peak (assuming it can still do that even with the USB DAC in use). As far as power is concerned the HD650 can already get pretty much all it needs from that.

If anything you could end up with a little bit under that or you're not getting a full Redbook standard 2V depending on the USB DAC power supply design, and these (the latter more than the first) can affect overall volume and how much more power and gain are needed to get the overall system volume up.

Assuming you are getting -7V to +7V though what you'll get out of a desktop amp is probably even lower distortion and noise. "Probably," because some might have higher distortion percentage and just don't have crossover distortion running full Class A, or you get lucky and get both lower overall distortion and no crossover distortion (but you'd have to spend more, unless you get lucky with a used amp), while you might end up with more noise if your computer has cleaner USB power and signal output than the power out of your walls.

In short...if it's just outright power quantity, not really any gains; power quality, it can go either way.

I'm not really sure what to pick since I'm sorta on a budget (can't really spend more than 300 bucks).

Outside of saving up or buying some amps used, I'd get the Corda Rock, but it's not a kit.

https://bottlehead.com/product/crack-otl-headphone-amplifier-kit/

If you can build it then this is a good kit.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/1556502757.htm/ (dude listed for 10e but it appears to be a mistake since he declares "expecting realistic offers")

Does that even have a headphone jack? Pic only shows RCA sockets in the front panel. It might be a speaker amp, so how it does with 300ohms as opposed to the 8ohms nominal it's likely designed for is far from known unless you find reviews for this amp specifically for that use case.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/1556259910.htm/

No headphone jack either. And I see speaker outputs. Like the other one it might actually end up with more distortion than the Arrow, although subjectively you might like the result.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/image_son/1544476962.htm/

This is the safest bet but at that price why not just get a DV336se?

 

[Camomille]

Thanks for your prompt, detailed answer ProtegeManiac

The Headstage Arrow outputs 7V peak to peak (assuming it can still do that even with the USB DAC in use). As far as power is concerned the HD650 can already get pretty much all it needs from that.

I forgot to mention that I have an older version of the Arrow (the 4T/4N), is your assertion still relevant in this case?

Outside of saving up or buying some amps used, I'd get the Corda Rock, but it's not a kit.

Why specifically the Corda Rock, is there something special about it? (I'm really inexperienced so I may ask naive questions, I'm sorry)

This is the safest bet but at that price why not just get a DV336se?

What's the difference between the DVTHA332 and the DV336se, and why going for the latter would make more sense in your opinion?

thank you very much for your precious help

 

[buke9]

Bottlehead Crack is my favorite with the 650’s .

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I forgot to mention that I have an older version of the Arrow (the 4T/4N), is your assertion still relevant in this case?

IIRC the only difference is the USB DAC but I could be wrong. If that doesn't have one, what have you been using with the Arrow for your source/DAC?

In any case if the addition of the USB DAC is the only difference, and that version still gets +/-7V, that's still a lot for the HD650. Overall volume at that point relies on the voltage of the input signal and the gain level on the amp.

Why specifically the Corda Rock, is there something special about it? (I'm really inexperienced so I may ask naive questions, I'm sorry)

Because it's got good reviews for how lively it sounds and it's the best I can think of that will work with your budget considering price, EU tariffs, shipping, etc.

What's the difference between the DVTHA332 and the DV336se, and why going for the latter would make more sense in your opinion?

You only have two tubes that don't have to be output matched to each other, ie, it'll be somewhat easier to find replacement tubes.

 

[Camomille]

Bottlehead Crack is my favorite with the 650’s .

What's the difference between the crack thing and the regular option for this amp??

If that doesn't have one, what have you been using with the Arrow for your source/DAC?

I basically use the following setup (you may laugh since I have very few idea of what I'm doing ahah):

ecause it's got good reviews for how lively it sounds and it's the best I can think of that will work with your budget considering price, EU tariffs, shipping, etc.

It seems difficult to find, any idea of where I could eventually find a second hand one?

You only have two tubes that don't have to be output matched to each other, ie, it'll be somewhat easier to find replacement tubes.

How hard are these replacement tubes to find? Are they expensive?

I'm really sorry I'm an absolute novice and I might have said/done really stupid things ah. Don't hesitate to correct me I'm not a touchy person and I want to learn !

PS: Also, what's "a kit"? I thought it meant amp+cable but seemingly, I was wrong
PPS: Do you think I'd get a better sound quality with an iPod Line Out Dock > microUSB than 3.5mm jack in?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

What's the difference between the crack thing and the regular option for this amp??

You mean the Speedball upgrade? Basically makes it more addicting, based on the marketing terminologies.

I basically use the following setup (you may laugh since I have very few idea of what I'm doing ahah):

Nah that's fine...but if your goal is getting louder but cleaner you don't just get a similarly clean or slightly cleaner amp. You need a clean 2V signal, so you need a DAC. Something like the ODAC from Head N HiFi in Switzerland. Note: it only works with computers and some tablets/smartphones, not your iPod.

It seems difficult to find, any idea of where I could eventually find a second hand one?

Most people who get Meier amps tend to hold on to them. I've had my Cantate.2 since 2012 (and it came out 2009 or something). I haven't seen any Rocks for sale (not saying nobody sold theirs, but they're few and far between).

Besides...why buy used? I pointed them out because you can get them new for the kind of money you're willing to spend. Even the FF version is €255.

http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/amplifiers.htm

How hard are these replacement tubes to find? Are they expensive?

All Darkvoice amps tend to not use the more usual stuff you can get from Mullard et al like the 12AX7/ECC38, 6SN7, 6550, etc, and don't have easy swap in equivalent.

Most tubes are single channel so you have to match two separate tubes' output levels. One error and one tube could be matched to one that should have been matched to another tube if not junked. This isn't a common problem with reliable tube sellers, but errors can happen. If one breaks during shipping you'd have to get a tube that matches the output on the one that didn't break. Some sellers might try to match a much weaker measuring tube with a really good one. In other words there's that variable. It's not always a deal breaker but the thing is you could avoid it by getting an amp from the same company that doesn't have this problem.

Some tubes are 2ch which is why you only see one of each tube type on the 336 (or the single power tube on the WooAudio WA6), and when you buy one it's always tested to measure well on both sides and no chance of getting one tube for a pair mixed up.

In other words unless you're a tube nerd using tubes that can handle two channels might make a tube amp easier to maintain.

PS: Also, what's "a kit"? I thought it meant amp+cable but seemingly, I was wrong

"Amp+cable (and headphones or speakers)" is more like a knife roll where you have the primary 8in or 9.5in knife with a tall section at the heel stretching out to a rather flat section for chopping with a narrow curved tip for dicing and some fine slicing along with the yanagiba for slicing raw fish as well as carving a roast where you won't have to go through bone and a deba to chop the heads off fish and an usuba to chop vegetables as well as making fine matchsticks and peeling cucumbers quickly and still come up with something decorative.

For an amp a "kit" means the same as with cars: you get the parts and then you use them to make the end product, like a Bottlehead Crack that you have to build from the parts or you order a Caterham replica of the Lotus Seven kit car where you build the chassis at home and you decide whether you want a Ford Duratec or a Honda B18 in it.

PPS: Do you think I'd get a better sound quality with an iPod Line Out Dock > microUSB than 3.5mm jack in?

Not necessarily, the iPod has a very clean output, with its only weak point being its 1.2V output. And besides, it's not easy finding a DAC that can work with a pre-iOS iPod.

 

[tomb]

All great comments … except maybe single tube vs two tubes. Dual triode tubes are very seldom matched within the same tube, in my experience. The statistical bias is against having dual triodes in a single tube matched, not for it. It's almost always better to have two tubes with a stereo device. If they are dual triodes, even better, because then the matching is done on the average of the two triodes for each tube. This results in a much higher statistical chance of finding tubes that match.

With a single, dual triode tube, you will be forced into a more scarce and expensive market in trying to support it. (IOW - a false savings.)

 

[ProtegeManiac]

All great comments … except maybe single tube vs two tubes. Dual triode tubes are very seldom matched within the same tube, in my experience. The statistical bias is against having dual triodes in a single tube matched, not for it. It's almost always better to have two tubes with a stereo device. If they are dual triodes, even better, because then the matching is done on the average of the two triodes for each tube. This results in a much higher statistical chance of finding tubes that match.

With a single, dual triode tube, you will be forced into a more scarce and expensive market in trying to support it. (IOW - a false savings.)

Oh I was thinking more of how it's easier to get a 12AX7 that measures properly than whatever other single tubes I used before. Most likely specific to the 12AX7/ECC83 and 6DJ8 etc just being more common to begin with.

 

[Camomille]

Thank you everyone for your great answers, and sorry for replying so late...

Nah that's fine...but if your goal is getting louder but cleaner you don't just get a similarly clean or slightly cleaner amp. You need a clean 2V signal, so you need a DAC. Something like the ODAC from Head N HiFi in Switzerland. Note: it only works with computers and some tablets/smartphones, not your iPod.

So I'm pretty confused, should I get a DAC or do you think it's really not necesary? I'm not exactly trying to go louder but to improve my listening experience, basically. Should I rather invest in a portable or non-portable DAC/Amp then?

Not necessarily, the iPod has a very clean output, with its only weak point being its 1.2V output. And besides, it's not easy finding a DAC that can work with a pre-iOS iPod.

My iPod works with Rockbox, not the offical Apple OS. Does that make a difference?

Another question: what do you think of hte FiiO A5 DAC/portable amp? Worth the money?

Thanks everyone!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So I'm pretty confused, should I get a DAC or do you think it's really not necesary?

Like I said, it depends on what your goal is and what you want to improve. If the voluem is low or is noisy now then sure, it can help if you have a 2V signal going into a powerful amp circuit, ie, get a good DAC and HPamp combo (including single box units).

I'm not exactly trying to go louder but to improve my listening experience, basically. Should I rather invest in a portable or non-portable DAC/Amp then?

There are too many variables to consider. First off, it goes back to details on your end - what exactly do you mean by "improve listening experience?" If you don't know exactly what to improve then we'd be throwing out wild guesses based on our subjective biases, and even if you did, there would still be no guarantees we'd get it right either.

If I'm going to start with assessing possible weak points in what you have, well, none I'd be too concerned about, really. Sure the iPod outputs 1.2V, but for the most part the amp's input stage was designed for that and you're not really that short on power.

If you were just about to buy that system, it wouldn't be what I'd recommend, but since you already have it, I'd err on not spending a lot of money just to get for example a desktop system with a powerful, low distortion, very low noise Class A amplifier circuit taking a 2V signal from a low noise DAC.

Think of it this way: if you applied that logic to a car, you currently drive an Audi S4, and you're asking what car to get to "improve the driving experience," without any further details. If I tell you the absolute best just for driving, then get a Lamborghini with a Jota or SE badge, or some similar Ferraris (or, hell, just get a freaking Ducati). But then it turns out you had to sell the S4, and now you have a machine that is absolutely fantastic on a winding road, but an absolutely expensive toy so clumsy and impractical you end up taking the train to work daily because it's hard to see out of it, backing out sitting with your arse on the outer high side of the bucket seat and looking out above the car's hips (where the spoiler is still blocking most of what you're supposed to see) is driving you and your chiropractor crazy, and it can't even get up (let alone back down) the ramp into your daily parking spot without scraping the carbon fiber lip out front. Worse, when you do take it out, one mistake and you're spinning towards the guard rail.

Or think about it like a camera. If you wanted to "improve the camera's image quality" from say your Panasonic LX7, what if somebody told you to get the D800E and a 14-24/28 and a 70-200/2.8? You went along with it, but then you end up practically never using the camera because it's too heavy and you never got around to reading the long manual much less how to take multiple exposures to merge into an HDR image that you need to properly edit in Lightroom or Affinity, not to mention actually going to a place that is interesting enough to take such efforts to take those kinds of photos.

Or think about kitchen stuff. If you're just moving into a new home and you also want to "improve on the experience" of food preps, without any specific idea on what you want to do exactly, making you buy a $300 super hard steel Japanese knife and cheaper iron skillets that I use at my home can end up with "this pull through sharpener I bought ruined my knife and oh it just chipped! and eggs and everything keep sticking on this pan! why is your pan black and your knives are shiny AF at the edge with no chips?!"

Bottomline: going for a good desktop system is your logical step from this, but 1) will you have time to enjoy it while 2) being open to the possibility that you might not be able to perceive a difference.

My iPod works with Rockbox, not the offical Apple OS. Does that make a difference?

It does....you can not use even Apple certified DACs with that iPod if Rockbox is running.