[Steven112]

Hi,
 
I have been using a X-FI HD as my DAC for some time now. And after reading a lot of reviews (mainly on this site) I got myself a Schiit Modi.
 
The 'problem' is that I can hardly hear a difference between the X-fi and the Schiit.
I have both of them hooked up to the Schiit SYS, so i can very easily switch between them. And must say, i can't make out much off a difference. There is a difference, but it's so small, that it might just be in my head. 
 
Am I doing something wrong, or are the differences really that minor?
 
As some extra info I have a Sennheiser HD598 and a HD600 (with after-market cables)
And I am using a Darkvoice 3322 as my amp (currently running WE-403-B)
My audio source is all flac files

 

[PurpleAngel]

What program are you using to play your audio files?
Is the Modi and optical or USB unit?

 

[Steven112]

The Modi is an USB version. And I use Winamp to play my files

 

[PurpleAngel]

  The Modi is an USB version. And I use Winamp to play my files

 
Have you tried using a WASAPI plug-in with Winamp?
When using the Modi, do you max out the volume setting on the computer and just use the Darkvoice's volume control?
(just trying to figure out if anything is keeping the Modi from getting the best signal possible)

 

[Steven112]

Yes i do use the wasapi plugin (I have also tryed Foobar with ASIO)
 
I can't do anything with audio level in windows after i turn on the wasapi

 

[PurpleAngel]

  Yes i do use the wasapi plugin (I have also tryed Foobar with ASIO)
 
I can't do anything with audio level in windows after i turn on the wasapi

 
Do you max out the volume control in Winamp?

 

[Steven112]

yes volume is maxed

 

[Bibo]

You are using a tube-amp. So maybe the differences between the two dacs, if any, are masked by the characteristic sound of the amp?

 

[Steven112]

I did not think about that..
 
But since I don't own a solid state amp, I can't test it.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Not all tube amps lack transparency, but in any case I once took out my Meier Cantate.2 to look for a CDP, and nearly everything I tried with it sounded different, and some of them are worse, including one that cost a lot more than the average. My favorite in that group wasn't that much better tonally (unlike the most expensive in the set, which made Norah Jones sound like she needs to clear her sinus first) than the average, and in fact it was tonally similar to the built-in USB DAC (a testament to how good that auxiliary circuit is), but even on headphones the imaging and separation improvement was audible (of course, given that much improvement, I wasn't about to blow that much money).

 

In any case, any good DAC designed for neutral output with good fundamental designs - like the CD72 and the Meier USB DAC - won't really sound different tonally (if anything, using the analog input on the Meier amp frees up voltage swing for the amplifier section), and then there's just going to be a small difference in imaging that most people can't perceive on speakers let alone headphones (where you can't get accurate spatial cues without, or even with, Crossfeed).

 

[Steven112]

Uhmm not sure if I understand you completely, I'm actually a little bit confused. So I'll try to explain what I think you are saying.

The Meier is an ss-amp, and with that you connected serveral diverent cd-players and could hear a distinct difference. But that the sound your DAC gave you was similar to your favorite CD-player from that test, so decided not to get the expensive cd-player.

To me here you are saying that there is a difference and then say there is hardly any difference between DAC's. At least not a difference you can perceive.

But ultimately, it's not that strange I can't hear a clear difference?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Uhmm not sure if I understand you completely, I'm actually a little bit confused. So I'll try to explain what I think you are saying.

The Meier is an ss-amp, and with that you connected serveral diverent cd-players and could hear a distinct difference. But that the sound your DAC gave you was similar to your favorite CD-player from that test, so decided not to get the expensive cd-player.

To me here you are saying that there is a difference and then say there is hardly any difference between DAC's. At least not a difference you can perceive.

 

What I am saying is that, first, it isn't too hard to find a good, neutral DAC, and when they vary they vary in imaging, which most people find hard to perceive on speakers let alone headphones, and the minor differences between your gear may also have something to do with these but you might not have noticed them. Either way, use which is more convenient in your set up.

Second, IF and when a DAC or other source unit sounds completely different, like the one that made Norah Jones sound like she needs to have more chicken soup and Vicks before going on stage, then it's a badly-designed DAC. It's not a Digital to Analogue Converter anymore, it's a Digital to Analogue Converter with a Warmifying Snot-filled Sinus output stage. It is deliberately reshaping the sound, and at its price, that is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse than having a cheap piece of gear whose only shortcoming is a two-dimensional soundstage presentation but is otherwise neutral enough and sends out a clean enough line level signal to whatever amplifier is hooked up to it. If I want a vocalist to sound like they need to turn around and have a box of Kleenex handy, I'll use an EQ to boost at around 1khz to 2khz.

 

 
But ultimately, it's not that strange I can't hear a clear difference?

 

Nope. First off, as long as both those gears have a decent line out circuit sending comparable voltage line level signal, then there really shouldn't be much difference. On top of that, again, the differences can be subtle, and while I would point out that some people can't perceive imaging very well on speakers (let alone headphones), on the other end you have excitable people reviewing headphone equipment who make it seem like the soundstage is so wide everything is outside their heads and at precise locations. Similarly, I've seen some people describe certain headphones having a "wide" stage, when in fact it just puts everything on the Left, Center, and Right all too loud and almost no sound between Left-Center and between Center-Right (basically, default headphone sound).

 

Use reviews as a guide especially when you can't listen to stuff before buying, but still, take reviews with a grain of salt.

 

[Steven112]

Thank you, it’s clear to me now.
I do notice a very very small difference, but reading the reviews. I just expected a lager (more noticeable) improvement.
Seems my expectation where a bit to high J
Also some of the terminology is not always clear to me. I have not been an Audiophile that long, and don’t have al lot off gear I can compare (+ English is not my native language).
Learning new stuff al the time.
 
And while I’m at it.
The small difference I can hear. I would say it sounds like the position of the musicians in the room changes a little bit if I switch between the DAC’s. Not so much the sound. That would be Imaging then?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  Thank you, it’s clear to me now.
I do notice a very very small difference, but reading the reviews. I just expected a lager (more noticeable) improvement.
Seems my expectations were a bit too high. 

 
That's the problem with reviews, it's subjective so for somebody with deep pockets paying around $900 for an Arcam CDP (or a DAC that sounds like it) for example is unquestionably a worthy upgrade from an ODAC, without taking into account whether that upgrade is worth $750 more.
 

Originally Posted by Steven112 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Also some of the terminology is not always clear to me. I have not been an Audiophile that long, and don’t have al lot off gear I can compare (+ English is not my native language).
Learning new stuff all the time.

 
http://www.head-fi.org/a/glossary-of-terms
 
 
 

Originally Posted by Steven112 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
The small difference I can hear. I would say it sounds like the position of the musicians in the room changes a little bit if I switch between the DAC’s. Not so much the sound. That would be Imaging then?

 
Yes, that's it. That's the hard part to get right - two line signals can have nearly identical masurements but can have a significant improvement there, but of course, the speaker (and the room) or headphone at the end of that signal is still a lot more important.