[knestle]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd Would you eat your neighbours dog or cat?

The townhouse development where I live has some government assisted houseing units.

A couple of years ago a Vietnamise family moved in a few doors away, and the dogs and cats on the block started disappearing.

The city had to send out an animal control officer to explain to them that those were people's pets, not free food wandering around.

 

[wali]

Quote:

Originally Posted by knestle The townhouse development where I live has some government assisted houseing units. A couple of years ago a Vietnamise family moved in a few doors away, and the dogs and cats on the block started disappearing. The city had to send out an animal control officer to explain to them that those were people's pets, not free food wandering around.

I'm not Vietnamese, but I have to ask you this: do you know for certain that those people killed and ate those cats and dogs or it's just a xenophobic fantasy that you just vomited?

 

[remilard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich Carl Lewis also took supplements, both natural and not. On that note, how healthy can a lifestyle be if it requires you to take supplements just to survive?

Carl Lewis did not supplement in the ways Arnold did and yet you hold him up as some kind of physiological ideal. Almost all athletes take supplements, almost all non athletes take supplements (daily multi). The only thing that needs to be supplemented in a balanced vegan diet is B-12 and that is only because we no longer drink from the same river we go to the bathroom in or eat vegetables without washing them.

Also, you realize that almost all milk has vitamin supplements in it right?

Quote:

Calcium, among others, is pretty much unattainable in any place other than dairy products. Yes, broccoli and spinach have it, but not nearly as much as dairy.

Brocolli, spinach, other leafy greans, and many legumes have more calcium per calorie than dairy products. Spinach doesn't really count because the oxalic acid prevents calcium absorbtion. You should note that the countries with the highest dairy consumption have the highest rates of osteo porosis, the disease most commonly linked to calcium deficiency!

Quote:

Also of note, if you look back in time, historically, dairy products were always consumed. Over in the Middle East, they'd put goats milk in skin bags until it fermented into cheese. Cheese is an extremely good source of protein, calories, calcium, and many other vitamins, and it travels well. It's worked for the past who knows how many millenia, so why mess with it?

Not in most cultures. Most asians don't consume much dairy to this day and they seem to be doing okay.

 

[Mr.PD]

*****

 

[Aman]

Pink:

You do realize that we have been doing the same thing for thousands and thousands of years right?

Countless times, we can examine ancient tribes from New Guinea killing pigs they eat by hitting them over the head many times with blunt objects.

We have been torturing animals since the beginning of time, just as tigers have been torturing their pray since the beginning of time.

I'm sure in the mind of an antalope, the treatment they get from tigers is just a fact of life.

The only reason human beings complain about this stuff is because they have the ability to think about other things, and not just their instincts - but if these peoples' thoughts go against the human instinct, how correct could it be? To me, it sounds more backwards because denying our own instincts of being omnivores is just plain silly - it's going against nature, even though you are trying to fight on the side of nature

I am not trying to poke fun at you for your decision, as my mother and my brother don't eat meat (but because of dietary reasons and taste reasons - not because of the treatment of animals).

That Alec Baldwin documentary you watched is also quite biased - when I lived in Michigan, I lived near a few farms. I knew the owners well. They grew their livestock in humanly, good conditions. They shot them in the head when they were at their prime. They lived a full life and got killed and kept in humane conditions.

The documentary most-likely portrayed cases of three or four slaughter houses. Out of how many? Thousands in the United States alone - I'm sure there are as many in the UK as well.

By the way, one can view this documentary by going to meetyourmeat.com

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by remilard Carl Lewis did not supplement in the ways Arnold did and yet you hold him up as some kind of physiological ideal.

I don't hold him as an ideal. I just put him in because he's become sort of the standard body builder image.

Quote:

Almost all athletes take supplements, almost all non athletes take supplements (daily multi). The only thing that needs to be supplemented in a balanced vegan diet is B-12 and that is only because we no longer drink from the same river we go to the bathroom in or eat vegetables without washing them.

I don't take vitamins unless I'm sick, which doesn't happen all that often. Once a year or so. And I don't eat a ton of vegetables or fruits, either. And I chow down on meat with gusto.

Quote:

Also, you realize that almost all milk has vitamin supplements in it right?

I am.

Quote:

Brocolli, spinach, other leafy greans, and many legumes have more calcium per calorie than dairy products. Spinach doesn't really count because the oxalic acid prevents calcium absorbtion. You should note that the countries with the highest dairy consumption have the highest rates of osteo porosis, the disease most commonly linked to calcium deficiency!

So drink fat free milk. ~80 calories/8 ozs. You're approaching the caloric content of broccoli and spinach, then. As for dairy consumption linked to osteoporosis, I want some references here. Sounds like a crock to me.

 

[remilard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich So drink fat free milk. ~80 calories/8 ozs. You're approaching the caloric content of broccoli and spinach, then. As for dairy consumption linked to osteoporosis, I want some references here. Sounds like a crock to me.

http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/am...orrelation.htm

Footnoted.

Why not drink a glass of soymilk which has ~100 calories, as much calcium as milk, and imo tastes better than skim or lowfat milk. Sure it has calcium added but then the skim milk had vitamin A and D added so neither is supplement free.

Or, I could just eat my greens, since I enjoy them.

 

[Stephonovich]

Quote:

Originally Posted by remilard http://www.amazingdiscoveries.org/am...orrelation.htm Footnoted. Why not drink a glass of soymilk which has ~100 calories, as much calcium as milk, and imo tastes better than skim or lowfat milk. Sure it has calcium added but then the skim milk had vitamin A and D added so neither is supplement free. Or, I could just eat my greens, since I enjoy them.

Why not drink soymilk? Because it tastes like butt. I was lactose intolerant for years, and tried every milk alternative under the sun. HATED soymilk, no matter what kind I tried. Lactaid (modified milk, basically) was the only stuff I could handle.

As for the link, it was very interesting, but I have a comment about the table showing protein/dairy consumption and bone breakage... the top 4 are almost identical in their protein/dairy consumption, and are very similar with the number of hip fractures, with the exception of Israel. This tells me there's something else than just food consumption as a factor here.

 

[remilard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephonovich As for the link, it was very interesting, but I have a comment about the table showing protein/dairy consumption and bone breakage... the top 4 are almost identical in their protein/dairy consumption, and are very similar with the number of hip fractures, with the exception of Israel. This tells me there's something else than just food consumption as a factor here.

At the very least, dairy consumption doesn't appear to be the magical osteporosis bullet, with countries with very little dairy consumption have consistently very little osteoporosis. You noticed protein consumption is high for the countries with high osteoporosis rates, maybe that is the culprit. The common explanation is that dairy makes the blood a bit more acidic than normal causing the the blood to leech calcium from the bones so that dairy is actually a net drain on calcium in your body. It should be noted that protein inhibits calcium absorbtion, another knock against dairy and another point for the effectiveness of getting calcium through greens.

Read up more on the subject, there is a lot written on either side. The pure facts are that, high dairy consumption is correlated with high osteoporosis (there may not be causation) and that as dairy consumption has increased in the United States since WWII so has osteoporosis (again correlation, maybe not causation).

 

[Edwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.PD That was an interesting link. I however did not see anything bad with potatoes. They just have a high GI rating. That doesn't make them bad for everyone. It does unfortunately make them bad for me, as I need to get away from "simple" carbohydrates until I get a handle on triglyceride levels.

Yeah. Tell me about it. Getting a blood test is the best first step before deciding on what kind of diet to go on.


Quote:

Eat a fish.

You, speciesist!

-Ed

 

[Edwood]

"I eat veal
With zeal
For my next meal
I eat seal"

-Ed

 

[kunwar]

Hey I tried Soy Milk once, boy does it suck ass big time.
Me I have been brought up on full cream milk, butter and clarified butter (Ghee) as was my father whose cholestrol levels are perfectly normal and he is healthier than most men half his age. In 34 years of army life his image never went out of the 73-75 KG range. That is a fact. Now I know it is all fine and well to not erat things but believe me when I say that the level of allergies and food restrictions is FAR HIGHER in the western world than the Asian countries. Food IMO is getting to point of too clean now. We need some germs in there or else the body just adjusts which in turn is not good in the gr8 run. The meats allow the body to take in some germs which allow immune system strengthening.

 

[kunwar]

Quote:

Originally Posted by remilard Also, you realize that almost all milk has vitamin supplements in it right? Brocolli, spinach, other leafy greans, and many legumes have more calcium per calorie than dairy products. Spinach doesn't really count because the oxalic acid prevents calcium absorbtion. Not in most cultures. Most asians don't consume much dairy to this day and they seem to be doing okay.

Let me get rid of some of the suggested results that have been highlighted here.
First of all most Milk I have had in Aus, believe me, tasted like crap. So I am sure there must be some additives to it. In India we used to get milk straight from the dairy where we would sit down and have it milked in front of us.

Secondly, spinach and legumes are not exactly regarded as Calcium sources. They are more prized for their rich Vitamin and mineral contents.
thridly, osteoporosis has a variety of causes not just Calcium deficiency. Low levels of exercise, inactivity and no movement of any sort whatsoever. Tose are some of the reasons. Most countries in the developing world have this problem because of the hectic and often busy lifestyles which don't even allow them to consideer exercise as an option. I have seen it.

Kunwar

 

[KtoEto]

Quote:

Posted by Stephonovic This seems particularly ironic considering the nature of this thread. If you're hunting wild animals, they've lived a free and happy life, and you can rest assured that the meat will be of the highest quality. It's also a whole lot cheaper than store bought. Ever priced venison?

I want them to keep living a free and natural life (and the only meat I eat is beef).
Highest quality maybe, but not all hunters are veterinarians and maybe the hunted animal is sick.
Price, when I buy meat I know I'm not paying just for the cost of the meat, I'm also giving money to people (farmers, butchers, sellers) so they can keep doing what they do to make a living.
And if you consider the time, the space and the tools needed (looking for the animal, kill, take it home, check for sickness, slaughter, preserve) hunting is not so cheap.

 

[wallijonn]

Pinky,

I eat beef about once every 21 days (whether it is a burger or a can of beef stew). The symptom is usually that I start feeling weak. For protein I usually will take Alfalfa tablets. Chicken, I will usually eat about once a month, usually in the form of a Chicken McSpicey or one of your Supermarket broiled chickens.

For the most part I'll have salmon three times a week. I put the ftying pan on low for 5 minutes, add some olive oil after 5 minutes, throw in a salmon, then cover. I cook it for 7 minutes per side, leaving the skin side for last so that it is nioce and crunchy (the pan gets hot by the time 10 minutes have rolled around). Heck, I've had 'fried' salmon for breakfast and I love it cold,, so that I can nosh throughout the day. For a treat I'll throw in cod on Fridays every now and then.

Don't cut back on beef and chicken and veal for political reasons - do it because of your spiritual reasons (your well being, no steroids, cutting back on the chance of getting colon cancer, cutting back on having high cholesterol, cutting back on aggression, etc.)

WHile you're at it cut back on sugars, corn syrup, trans-fats, hydrogenated oils and unrefined flours. I've found that my depressions have been greated abated. For some reason the older I now get the more I can hear the music, especially on TV. Maybe my cholesterol has been reduced and the wax in my ears doesn't build up so easily, but my hearing has now become more acute, I appreciate it more now. Music in my dreams continue, though, and I am now always aware of how my mind is being programmed during the day when I hear music (hearing "Rap" music during the day will usually cause me to have nightmares during the next morning).

So, yes, I find that a better diet leads to better hearing; that animal fat isn't being converted to ear wax. (Should I put a smiley, here?)