[Dark Ayla]

I noticed that many amps have no balanced headphones out, this includes high end amps (Macintosh MHA100 and others). I am wondering why!
 
I was talking to one of the high end manufacturers about it, he said "balanced is not the industry standard, so why would I bother". I am not sure but he didn't convince me.
Other manufacturer said "I implemented the 4 pin XLR in my amp because customers want it, I don't know if they really need it. For the marketing sake, I use it in my amp" said it with big nice smile on his face

. 
 
To me the only difference is that the balanced is more powerful, but increasing the volume on the unbalanced out will match the balanced out. For example, 9 o'clock balanced equal to 11 o'clock unbalanced. 
 
What do u think?

 

[KG Jag]

Only a limited amount of equipment has balanced out (feeding say a headphone amp)--and it tends to be quite expensive.  In turn few headphone amps (for example) have balanced in.  Without a true balanced chain to your headphones, you aren't listening to a balanced track through your balanced cans.
 
Some DAP's, like Pono and at least some HiFiMan models offer a balanced source.
 
And then there are two or three or four different ways (types of connectors) to connect to a balanced source.

 

[superjawes]

Blanced doesn't actuallyoffer you--the customer--anything. From a design side, it can make life easier or worse, but as a listener, you should only careabout sund quality, and balanced connections are not going to determine that.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

  I noticed that many amps have no balanced headphones out, this includes high end amps (Macintosh MHA100 and others). I am wondering why!
...
To me the only difference is that the balanced is more powerful, but increasing the volume on the unbalanced out will match the balanced out. For example, 9 o'clock balanced equal to 11 o'clock unbalanced. 

 

There's a way to design SE output stages to have no disadvantages vs Balanced drive, and if anything, Balanced might have the size disadvantage (assuming you're comparing comparable circuits, like for example a Beta 22 2-PCB 2ch vs 3ch active ground vs 4ch Balanced drive). In some cases an active ground can help produce nearly the same amount of power as balanced without requiring the end user to buy a new cable or gut his.

 

[billybob_jcv]

To do balanced "correctly" it requires a lot more than just two XLR jacks. A true fully-balanced amp completely separates the left and right channels from input to output. That make the design FAR more expensive than using dual-channel components that are made for stereo signals.

 

[Dark Ayla]

Blanced doesn't actuallyoffer you--the customer--anything. From a design side, it can make life easier or worse, but as a listener, you should only careabout sund quality, and balanced connections are not going to determine that.

So is it just marketting gimmick?!

I guess so 

 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

So is it just marketting gimmick?!

I guess so 

 

 

That depends on the circuit design. In some cases you can squeeze out a lot more power and still keep an amp somewhat smaller than a 3ch active ground design, for example compare the size of the PB-2 and the Quickstep. Still, the thing is, it comes down to circuit design, and in most cases a true balanced amp will just be a lot larger.

In other cases it will simply be practical to run the headphone balanced, for example if you're designing a speaker amplifier (and speakers essentially run "balanced" with each side having its own + and -) and it would actually be simpler to just put in a balanced drive headphone output than have to deal with reworking the - to run as a shared ground. Not simply a "gimmick" in this case but either way you go marketing is involved: the Ragnarok, Precision 1 and Precision 2 are primarily addressed to headphone users so they're likely to own more expensive, harder to drive headphones and be more willing to mess around with getting an XLR plug on their cables, and giving them a decent amp for when they want to and can go loud with speakers will be sweet. By contrast a speaker amp made by one of hte more traditional home audio brands would not expect their customers to blow a lot of money on headphones and just treat them as night time alternatives. Hell for the longest time speaker people have preferred Grados as much as German(ic) headphones, and yet the standard was a to assume that people would hook up 120ohm or higher impedance drivers to their integrated amps when the rest of the household is asleep.

 

[m8o]

So is it just marketting gimmick?!
I guess so

NO!
not if implement properly as mirror circuits 180 degrees out of phase.

 

[kdava]

NO!
not if implement properly as mirror circuits 180 degrees out of phase.

 
So what's the advantage of going balanced from a headphone-only point of view?

 

[tomb]

 

NO!
not if implement properly as mirror circuits 180 degrees out of phase.

 
So what's the advantage of going balanced from a headphone-only point of view?

 
If an amplifier is truly balanced, even if just in the internal circuitry (not at the headphone connection) - noise and distortion is automatically cancelled out in the signal path.  That doesn't mean it removes it completely, it just means that the circuit's generation of noise and distortion is cancelled out.  You are summing two reflected signals of each other to make a single channel signal.  So any noise or distortion that doesn't exist on both sides is rejected.  The parts components themselves will have their distortion and noise values, so those components will still be there, but the resulting "summed" signal for each channel will be remarkably lower in noise and distortion.
 
At the headphone end, voltage range and slew rates are effectively doubled.  This doesn't mean that much for low impedance phones, but for high impedance phones it can mean a huge difference.  When you combine that with the inherent noise and distortion cancellation, it really does put performance at a higher level for those headphones that can truly take advantage of it.  The source should be balanced, too, for the headphones to get full advantage of completely balanced drive.  Some headphones can really exploit this (Senn HD580/600/650), others not so much - but all will benefit from the improvement in the amplifier circuitry, whether the connection is actually balanced at the headphone (and source) or not.

 

[kdava]

   
If an amplifier is truly balanced...

 
Thank you, I didn't know these. I know about the advantages of XLR cables with noise, but I always thought it doesn't really matter with a short cable like what you typically use with headphones (and I still think).
 
Truly balanced amps are usually pretty expensive, right? So in that higher price bracket, is slew rate/voltage range really a problem (in unbalanced amps)? I would expect a 1-2000+ USD product not to have such problems. (not trying to pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious)
 
What I mean is: You have an expensive car called HD800, that can run 350km/h. You have tires that allow a speed of 500 km/h, so it's plenty enough. So why buy balanced tires that would allow speeds of 1000 km/h?

 

[tomb]

 

   
If an amplifier is truly balanced...

 
Thank you, I didn't know these. I know about the advantages of XLR cables with noise, but I always thought it doesn't really matter with a short cable like what you typically use with headphones (and I still think).
 
Truly balanced amps are usually pretty expensive, right? So in that higher price bracket, is slew rate/voltage range really a problem (in unbalanced amps)? I would expect a 1-2000+ USD product not to have such problems. (not trying to pick a fight, I'm genuinely curious)
 
What I mean is: You have an expensive car called HD800, that can run 350km/h. You have tires that allow a speed of 500 km/h, so it's plenty enough. So why buy balanced tires that would allow speeds of 1000 km/h?

 
A couple of things to explain here:
 
1. Balanced is simply a version of the same amplifier circuit and doubles all the components.  As remarked earlier in this thread, it's still more than simply separating into two completely separate amplifiers of a single channel, each.  Actually, the power supply does not need to be separate.  So, one way to think of it is that a completely separated one channel plus one channel amplifier scheme is actually more expensive without as much benefit, as compared to truly balanced drive.
 
Nevertheless, most of the components are truly 2X, so any balanced version of the same amplifier will be almost twice as expensive.
 
2. Despite what some have said (NWAVGUY), slew rate is truly important.  It's a primary spec for opamps, for instance, and quite literally is a measurement of how fast a circuit can respond to an input.  Think about it.  That means everything in determining detail and nuance, which is what we're all after.
 
Voltage range is perhaps less important, especially with low impedance headphones.  Yet, it guarantees plenty of headroom for musical peaks - especially with solid state equipment, which is often quite limited in voltage capability.  Balanced might be one way to achieve a greater votlage range and slew rate capability with small portable devices, for instance - as in the PONO.  Admittedly, voltage range is more important with higher impedance phones than with lower impedances.
 

What I mean is: You have an expensive car called HD800, that can run 350km/h. You have tires that allow a speed of 500 km/h, so it's plenty enough. So why buy balanced tires that would allow speeds of 1000 km/h? 

 
Ha!  This is the perfect analogy, even though you didn't intend it as one.  I'm sure the Titanic was speeding along splendidly as well when it spotted the iceberg.  Trouble is, was it very successful in responding quickly to the changes needed when the iceberg appeared?
 
It's not the tires - it's the ENGINE.  How long did it take you to get to that 350km/h?  Once there, what if someone in front slows you down and you want to pass him to get back to 350km/h?  If your engine is limited to 360km/h, how long do you think it will take to complete the passing maneuver and get back to cruising at 350 km/h.  How long if the engine was capable of 500km/h?
 
Yeah, these days it's probably better to sit in your lane and accept the fact that you're going to have to go slower.  We're not interested in that with headphones, though.

 

[Steve Eddy]

To me the only difference is that the balanced is more powerful, but increasing the volume on the unbalanced out will match the balanced out. For example, 9 o'clock balanced equal to 11 o'clock unbalanced.

More powerful than what? "More powerful" is meaningless. It only applies to the individual amplifier channels used in that particular "balanced" amp. It has no real meaning beyond that. You can implement a single-ended amp that's powerful enough to vaporize the voicecoils of any headphone you care to name. So "more powerful" is meaningless.

se

 

[kdava]

Allright, thank you for the elaborate explanations
 
I used that analogy, because from what I read about slew rates, I got it like this: is that if it is too low, problems arise. If it is high enough, no problems. If you keep increasing it further, it won't bring any benefit, so in that sense, it's not an engine. But I guess it's not the case, then.

 

[Steve Eddy]

There's a way to design SE output stages to have no disadvantages vs Balanced drive, and if anything, Balanced might have the size disadvantage (assuming you're comparing comparable circuits, like for example a Beta 22 2-PCB 2ch vs 3ch active ground vs 4ch Balanced drive). In some cases an active ground can help produce nearly the same amount of power as balanced without requiring the end user to buy a new cable or gut his.

An "active ground" has nothing to do with gaining more power.

se