[jarthel]

has anyone tried these?

Have you compared these with Panasonic FM/FC?

Thank you.

 

[MASantos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jarthel /img/forum/go_quote.gif has anyone tried these? Have you compared these with Panasonic FM/FC? Thank you.

yes, many people use these in their projects. as far as I remember they are considered to be better than the pana FC/FM by a small amount. You could compare the datasheets and check it yourself.

 

[tomb]

I hate to disagree slightly with Manuel, but the Panasonic FM's have the best ratings and are generally regarded as the all-around best electrolytic out of the signal path. UPW's are more equivalent to FC's. You can check this yourself with simple comparisons of ripple current in the same sizes.

However, the chances of detecting the differences in an amp built with any of those three are very slight - they are all good choices. It's a small distinction, to be sure, but the question was asked.

 

[MASantos]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif I hate to disagree slightly with Manuel, but the Panasonic FM's have the best ratings and are generally regarded as the all-around best electrolytic out of the signal path. UPW's are more equivalent to FC's. You can check this yourself with simple comparisons of ripple current in the same sizes. However, the chances of detecting the differences in an amp built with any of those three are very slight - they are all good choices. It's a small distinction, to be sure, but the question was asked.

No problem at all, I said "as far as I remember", I wasn't pretty sure about that.

***goes away changing his Ck2III BOM... LOL

 

[freethegeek]

Here's a review of a cross section of capacitors used for audio circuit output coupling.

http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

This link also had some interesting notes on capacitor affects on sound.

http://www.ecp.cc/cap-notes.html

 

[Cauhtemoc]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb I hate to disagree slightly with Manuel, but the Panasonic FM's have the best ratings and are generally regarded as the all-around best electrolytic out of the signal path. UPW's are more equivalent to FC's. You can check this yourself with simple comparisons of ripple current in the same sizes.

The only other electrolytic capacitors I have seen that offer similar performance are the Rubycon ZL and ZLG.

 

[error401]

Nippon Chemi-Con has a couple of ultra low ESR lines that do quite a bit better than Panasonic FM. Very few values are available and only up to 16V, but these might be useful in a low voltage section. Take a look at their PS and PSA series; DigiKey stocks them.

Example:
NCC 330uF 16V PS - ESR 14mR - Ripple Current 5050mA
Pana 330uF 16V FM - ESR 56mR - Ripple Current 950mA

The Pana cap is in a smaller package, but the NCC outperforms the matching Panasonic package (470uF) by quite a large margin as well. These aren't cheap though...

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by error401 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Nippon Chemi-Con has a couple of ultra low ESR lines that do quite a bit better than Panasonic FM. Very few values are available and only up to 16V, but these might be useful in a low voltage section. Take a look at their PS and PSA series; DigiKey stocks them. Example: NCC 330uF 16V PS - ESR 14mR - Ripple Current 5050mA Pana 330uF 16V FM - ESR 56mR - Ripple Current 950mA The Pana cap is in a smaller package, but the NCC outperforms the matching Panasonic package (470uF) by quite a large margin as well. These aren't cheap though...

Your comparing a polymer cap to an electrolytic cap.

 

[error401]

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your comparing a polymer cap to an electrolytic cap.

Polymer caps are electrolytics

.

 

[NelsonVandal]

I think polymers are nice. I've started to use Sanyo OS-CON's more and more, but they are a bit expensive.

 

[derevaun]

Comparing just the ESR, it looks like Nichicon's HM and HE series compare more directly with the Panasonic FM. UPW is more likely to be stocked in a wide range. Is there some critical threshold above which the difference between PW and FM isn't significant?

 

[LawnGnome]

Quote:

Originally Posted by error401 /img/forum/go_quote.gif Polymer caps are electrolytics .

Many capacitors are electrolytic; tantalum, aerogel, double layer electrolytic, Aluminum electrolytic.


Would you consider all of those capacitors in the same class? No.

I think it was obvious we were talking about aluminum electrolytic. A category that polymer capacitors don't belong to. Their chemistry is very different.

Polymer caps use a solid electrolyte instead of a liquid electrolyte. And because of this they have very different characteristics.


So no, the series are not comparable. Because if you want to compare the PSx Series, you might as well compare compare Nichicon's offerings of polymer capacitors, as well as rubycon's and sanyo's. Which completely nulls the main topic of the thread which was about aluminum electrolytic capacitors. As I'm sure everyone knows the low ESR properties of polymer caps.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

Originally Posted by derevaun /img/forum/go_quote.gif Comparing just the ESR, it looks like Nichicon's HM and HE series compare more directly with the Panasonic FM. UPW is more likely to be stocked in a wide range. Is there some critical threshold above which the difference between PW and FM isn't significant?

FM's are cheaper. If the size is available, why wouldn't you select it?

I know the answer to that may be, "but I'm ordering all the rest of my stuff from Mouser ...", but still - it's a no-brainer if you are at DigiKey. Personally, more often than not I'm ordering from Mouser for the V-D's and other stuff they always seem to have. However, I wait for several amps in the queue to build, then order from DigiKey for at least the FM's (Murata trimmers, too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by LawnGnome <snip> ... I think it was obvious we were talking about aluminum electrolytic. ...</snip>

I suspect error401 was specifically talking about Os-Cons. Those are aluminum electrolytics - even if the electrolyte is a polymer. You can actually see this on United Chem-Con's site:

http://www.beganto.com/electronincs_...apacitors.html

"conductive polymer" is there in the list of their "Aluminum Electrolytics."

 

[error401]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomb /img/forum/go_quote.gif FM's are cheaper. If the size is available, why wouldn't you select it? I know the answer to that may be, "but I'm ordering all the rest of my stuff from Mouser ...", but still - it's a no-brainer if you are at DigiKey. Personally, more often than not I'm ordering from Mouser for the V-D's and other stuff they always seem to have. However, I wait for several amps in the queue to build, then order from DigiKey for at least the FM's (Murata trimmers, too).

DigiKey carries V-D resistors now, not RN series, but commercial equivalent CMF55/50, as well as SMD. Nice to see

Quote:

Many capacitors are electrolytic; tantalum, aerogel, double layer electrolytic, Aluminum electrolytic.

Yes, but most are inappropriate replacements for each other, except in the case of polymers which are not orders of magnitude more expensive, around the same size for a given value, and perform much better.

Are you going to argue that Cerafine and BlackGate caps don't count as aluminum electrolytics because they use a non-standard electrolyte? IMO the important thing to note here is that in both the polymer and 'standard' aluminum electrolytics, the dielectric is aluminum oxide, not the filler electrolyte. Because the primary chemistry and physics are in essence the same, I would say these two types are directly comparable.

 

[jarthel]

could we please get back to topic and not argue about "semantics"?

thank you.

ps. wonderful replies.