[GetCool]

I currently own a Terratec DMX 6fire 24/96 (that I use for DVDs/music) and an Audigy2 (for gaming). I run them concurrently and switch between them based on what I am doing. My headphones are HD580s with a Cardas cable.

I used to have an MGHead OTL as well, but I recently sold it. It was a great amp, but I needed some cash and it seemed almost like overkill for a PC sound card source. My intentions were to buy a less expensive solid state amp, since what I really need is more volume (neither card seems to drive high-impedence headphones very well).

So, my question is, do I need a very good amp, since my source is only a PC sound card? I'm looking to spend as little money as possible to get the best sound out of my computer. Also, I bought the Terratec a while ago thinking I was going to use a lot of its features, but I've found lately that I'm only listening to music/DVDs through it with headphones, so I'm wondering if I should sell that too and get a cheaper good-quality card (like the M-Audio Revolution). Is that a good idea? I'm going to keep the Audigy2 regardless because it's the best for games.

Thanks

 

[Hajime]

I own a Terratec DMX6Fire also and I find it a very good sound card. It should be up to the same quality as an M-Audio Revolution. However, the Terratec doesn't have a built-in headphone amplifier as the Revolution does so you need to use some sort of amplifier with it unless you use the "rear" socket of the card. If you use that socket you're not going to get much volume. I suppose it's up to you. Do what you feel is best. If you keep the Terratec, you'll probably need an amplifier to make your headphones sound the best. The Revolution is supposed to be able to drive them to acceptable volume levels without an amp.

 

[herbie]

Hi,

I don't think your amp has been overkill. I own a pretty similar card in terms of hardware and sound quality, just more "puristic" (Terratec EWX 24/96, both envy24 chip). The struggle I have with sound quality pretty much amp related.

BTW, I used to plug phones directly to line out of the soundcard. Volume was fine with the "+4 dBu" gain turned on. (Although detail and space/"air" were not.) I'd try to stay with the 24/96, since you probably won't get a lot of money out of it if you would buy another envy24 based card afterwards. PLUS I don't think you will get happy with a "cheap ss" amp any more...

Herbie

 

[markl]

IMO, yes, a $350 amp is way overkill for a computer sound card, especially for mp3s. Have you considered saving up for a good budget CDP, *then* getting an amp?

 

[herbie]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl IMO, yes, a $350 amp is way overkill for a computer sound card, especially for mp3s. Have you considered saving up for a good budget CDP, *then* getting an amp?

Did you ever hear a *good* computer source?

 

[markl]

Any good budget CDP can match the specs of any computer sound card. The computer sound card has the disadvantage of being located inside the computer along with all that noisy componentry and crummy power supply, so it has an inherent disadvantage from the start. I'll turn the question around on you, herbie, have you heard a good CDP?

 

[herbie]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl I'll turn the question around on you, herbie, have you heard a good CDP?

Probably I have not.

Some time ago I tested an Corda HA-1 (boring, but pretty revealing) with both my computer and a NAD budget cdp. The difference was slightly noticeable (without! blind test). But nothing compared to the substantial problems I experience in finding a good budget amp.

Come on, we are talking about a "cheap" few hundred dollars amp, nothing really high end.

I do not experience all that noise from inside the computer you are talking about.. is that your real life experience or theory?

And please, do not oversee the huge advantage in convenience using a harddisc based music archive. If one is not satisfied with the interal dac, the digital out of envy24 based cards is pretty good, too. One COULD attach a decent external DAC...

Concerning MP3/compressed music: Have you ever tried and easily succeeded in distinguishing well encoded audio from "the real" one? Don't forget, things get better all the time...

I am not talking about pure "high end" here, just about very good sound and real life entertainment/enjoyment. (From a "high end" point of view, one may call me ignorant anyway...)

Herbie

 

[markl]

Quote:

I do not experience all that noise from inside the computer you are talking about.. is that your real life experience or theory?

Yes. Noise of this nature is typically not "heard" until it is not there anymore. Low noise floor is one thing that distinguishes better equipment from average equipment, and that is achieved with clean, robust power that a noisy computer can't deliver.

I've had many better quality CDPs. One of the things that makes a $1000 CDP "better" than a sound card is not necessarily it's digital specs, which will be similar as DACs are very standardized with few manufacturers, but the analog section and the power supply and of course the quality of the transport improves in better and better quality players. I suggest you take a look at this thread, it explains in more detail what makes a good CDP a good CDP: http://www4.head-fi.org/forums/showt...ight=transport

sacdlover has broken it down into the 5 or so basic parts of a CD player. Quote:

And please, do not oversee the huge advantage in convenience using a harddisc based music archive. If one is not satisfied with the interal dac, the digital out of envy24 based cards is pretty good, too. One COULD attach a decent external DAC...

Again just my opinion take it for waht it is worth: IMO, if you care at all about sound quality, and you must if you are at all involved here

, you'll need to eventually ditch the mp3's. you can stick a $5000 amp on a computer sound card and all you will have is a very clear picture of how bad your source signal is. It all starts at the *source*, once you've lost that battle, no downstrteam component can make it "right", just amplify how "wrong" it is. and please don't tell me about this or that new technology-- it's still a compressed *representation* of the original. There is no substitute for an actual manufacturerd CD, SACD or DVD-A played back through an actual CDP/DVD-AP/SACDP.

Gotta go.

Mark

 

[GetCool]

Quote:

Again just my opinion take it for waht it is worth: IMO, if you care at all about sound quality, and you must if you are at all involved here , you'll need to eventually ditch the mp3's. you can stick a $5000 amp on a computer sound card and all you will have is a very clear picture of how bad your source signal is. It all starts at the *source*, once you've lost that battle, no downstrteam component can make it "right", just amplify how "wrong" it is. and please don't tell me about this or that new technology-- it's still a compressed *representation* of the original. There is no substitute for an actual manufacturerd CD, SACD or DVD-A played back through an actual CDP/DVD-AP/SACDP.

Yes, there is a substitute. It's called the lossless codec. I use FLAC for all my music compression, which is *identical* to the source CD, and play the files with foobar2000. Of course, a computer sound card setup cannot match the quality of a high-end CD deck, but my point is that I am not compromising the quality of the source data in the least (meaning if I play the CD through my CD-ROM drive or listen to the backed-up FLAC files, it will sound exactly the same). In fact, I don't even have a single MP3 on my computer, and I have approximately 100 CDs backed up.

While I appreciate your input, I don't feel you were attempting to answer my original question. I have already made up my mind that I am going to listen to my music from a digital archive on the hard drive of my computer. With that said, I am trying to budget-consciously maximize the output quality of my computer setup, and as such I require suggestions on how to do so. It sounds like many people feel I should hang onto my 6fire 24/96, so now I am trying to find a good amp to give the output a little more juice. Any suggestions?

 

[fewtch]

Quote:

Originally posted by markl Any good budget CDP can match the specs of any computer sound card.

I don't know what you mean here -- in what way is a CDP related to a soundcard? Matching specs between two unrelated sorts of equipment seems rather specious to me -- apples and oranges.

Perhaps you've never heard a quality card like the M-Audio Delta series (24 bit/96 KHz). Noise floor (yes, inside a computer) is actually better than that of CD (~102+ dB), and the mixer in the cards (Audiophile 24/96 specifically) operates at 36-bit resolution vs. CD's 16-bits. Maybe you should actually try one of these cards before making such a bold (and incorrect) statement.

 

[Hajime]

Fewtch, I'm inclined to agree with you. A high-quality sound card is most likely able to meet the same quality as an inexpensive CD player. It may even be able to do things that a stand alone CD player can't do, such as remixing and such.

markl, there's no question that with more expensive CD players the sound quality generally goes up. However, we're talking about inexpensive CD players. I'm sure that no soundcard could match a more expensive CD player such as your Sony, but in my opinion a good soundcard can match most of the lower-level CD players.

I suppose it comes down to whether you'd like the convenience of having the soundcard in your computer and the inexpensive price compared to the quality of a more expensive CD player which will provide a higher quality of sound, yet be without the abilities of the soundcard.

 

[markl]

Quote:

I don't know what you mean here -- in what way is a CDP related to a soundcard? Matching specs between two unrelated sorts of equipment seems rather specious to me -- apples and oranges.

It is apples to apples. A device that plays a CD can be compared to another device that plays CDs. They operate under the exact same principles/technology and share many of the same parts. These devices are being used for the same purpose, to listen to music, it's a fully valid comparison.
Quote:

Perhaps you've never heard a quality card like the M-Audio Delta series (24 bit/96 KHz). Noise floor (yes, inside a computer) is actually better than that of CD (~102+ dB), and the mixer in the cards (Audiophile 24/96 specifically) operates at 36-bit resolution vs. CD's 16-bits. Maybe you should actually try one of these cards before making such a bold (and incorrect) statement.

He he, so you *are* hung up on specs after all!

What do you think separates a $5000 source (say a Sony SCD-1, or a Meridian CDP) from the humble computer sound card? All you need do is listen to one and it's impossible to claim that the sound card is somehow "better" sonically or "the same only different".
The factors that effect a given source's quality are:
1. DAC chipset
2. Quality of transport
3. Quality of analog section
4. Quality of power supply
Those are the basic elements of any CDP, even a computer sound card/CD-ROM drive. The only place a computer soundcard might come close to the $5000 CDP is in terms of the DAC chipset which may share similar specs. It doesn't matter what kind of specs and noise figures your DACs have if they feed off into a noisy analog section powered by a noisy power supply.
Quote:

markl, there's no question that with more expensive CD players the sound quality generally goes up. However, we're talking about inexpensive CD players. I'm sure that no soundcard could match a more expensive CD player such as your Sony, but in my opinion a good soundcard can match most of the lower-level CD players.

I disagree. I feel a good budget $400 player will outperform many many soundcards, again for the reasons I've been stating.
Quote:

While I appreciate your input, I don't feel you were attempting to answer my original question. I have already made up my mind that I am going to listen to my music from a digital archive on the hard drive of my computer.

Fair enough. Good luck!

I certainly don't want to pick a fight with anyone, just expressing my views, which it appears aren't wanted by the thread-starter. Since that's the case, I'll refrain from further derailing his thread. Cheers.

Mark

 

[GetCool]

Quote:

I certainly don't want to pick a fight with anyone, just expressing my views, which it appears aren't wanted by the thread-starter. Since that's the case, I'll refrain from further derailing his thread. Cheers.

It's not that I don't want your views, it's just that I still feel my original question has gone unanswered.

There are many reasons why I don't want to listen to CDs; I don't like using the original media for fear of damage/wear, it is more cumbersome than a digital archive, I spend a good deal of time on my computer anyway, etc. In lieu of these points, I am not in the market to buy a CDP, and I am instead in the market to get an amp that will help my sound card output.

So, back to the original question: can anybody recommend a decent amp for this purpose? Thanks.

 

[fewtch]

Yes -- one of the Mint or Meta42's linked to in the "Mall-Fi" section of the board would probably be just fine (not sure about the situation with high impedance cans, but you could ask). Although most of them are geared more toward portable use, they'll work just fine with a PC soundcard and the right adapter cable (and provide high quality output too). You can get the Headsave Transit for around $99 plus shipping, with the DC jack option if you don't want to use batteries. Note -- I'm completely unaffiliated with any of these sellers, altho Norm (the guy who runs Headsave) was excellent about answering my detailed and boring questions over the course of several Emails.

I recently picked up a Rolls HA42 studio-type amp (see my review in a recent thread) and am starting to notice that it tends to kill detail and make the music sound homogenized, altho I don't think a typical background/noncritical listener would notice. For the moment, I stuck it up in the closet since my Audiophile 24/96 really puts out enough volume by itself (barely) to drive my low impedance cans. It's too bad some people don't realize how good these high-end soundcards can sound.

 

[kaiwei]

Ok maybe I'm crazy but I think of myself more as a music lover than an "audiophile". I spend $$$ on equipment because I want to get more from my music rather than the warm fuzzy feeling of new equipment (although I seriously enjoy that too

!)

That aside, I'm planning on maybe, just maybe a KGSS connected via XLR to the RME HDSP 9632 with the optional RME BO9632-XLRMKH D cable adapter. Cans are Stax SR-404 Signature.

XLR because of the EMI/RF from the computer.

The computer offers the convience of changing songs like never before. I can be listening to Radiohead, then Dream Theater, then Björk & Trio Ingolfssonar, Diana Krall, Foo Fighters, you get the drift...all without getting up from my chair.

Foobar2000 changed my life, I'm giving up my iBook because it doesn't run fb2k It's going to my sister.

I'm not all nuts either, the KGSS will have 2 input, in case, just in case I get a 'conventional' source in the future. But I really don't see how a conventional source will replace my computer in the ease of use. Even DVA-A has been release to be playable recently on the PC, abit still kinda restricted. But it's a software issue, not hardware!

I haven't decided at all on the KGSS & the Stax but it's like 99.9% comfirmed...there's no other way to go!

DVD-A Link