[Moose246]

Hi fellow Head-fi'ers. Looking for some advice on what may be a good next dac, as I've had a Mojo for a few years and wondering if it's time for an upgrade.

Budget would be ~$2000+/- (probably more on the + side).

My current setup:
- Pc/mac based with headphones....don't have any speakers.
- All flac files...mix of cd rips and hi-res. Have DSD files but don't listen to them as I tend to prefer the flac rips. Use Jriver for music management
- Have a variety of headphones.
Currently using Fostex TH900 mkii. I love these headphones, they put the others I have to shame.
Also have HD650, HiFiMan HE400i, ATH-M50x. I tried Grado Rs1e's and didn't like them. Probably good reference headphones in terms of detail but they didn't deliver near the "feel" for me as others (see my sound preference below).
For IEM's I have Shure SE846, primarily using them when not at home.
- For portable use: Cayin N5ii, Pono Player, HiBy R3 Pro. Mainly use the N5ii and Mojo stack....Pono if I want to mix it up...and HiBy for working out (with Beats Powerbeats Pro Wireless).

My listening preference would probably be considered warm....semi-flattened U shaped EQ. I do use EQ...I'm not concerned with flat transfers, hearing how the artist intended, etc....I tweak the EQ until I find the sound I like (if possible, for example Pono has no EQ setting). I will admit that my settings have migrated down from more of a V shape from my younger years, but I still like more bass and treble than not. My first "good" headphones were the M50x's and I was blown away at how I could "feel" the music. The HD650's and TH900's deliver a similar sound, albeit not as slamming, but have much more detail and resolution. Music listened to is pretty much anything except country and classical. Only a little bit of jazz...usually just to audition or appreciate the headphones.

Back to the dac. Admittedly I love the Mojo and think it sounds great...I like it better than the Pono, but some of that may simply be the EQ I can impact on the Mojo and not on the Pono. When it comes to hardware I've really only demo'd what I own, and given the state of retail lately it's difficult to go try a lot of hardware products. So I have to buy unheard.

My main question is, from a non-speaker setup perspective, what recommendations would there be for an "upgrade" from the Mojo? Particularly when it comes to bang for the buck, hearing a discernable difference when it comes to cost? My ear is likely nowhere near trained to the level of most people on here, but I feel like I'm getting there. I've noticed things in songs with the Fostex's that I didn't hear before, and I find myself listening more intently.

Some options I've been reading up on are:
- Schiit stacks. Gungnir MB / Valhalla? Bifrost?
- Chord 2Qute or Hugo. Probably go used here since they're expensive.
- ifi dsd micro black label

Not very familiar with Marantz, Cambridge, McIntosh, etc.

I know it all boils down to what I like and nobody can definitively tell me that, but curious if people have experimented with various units and have a comparison opinion. I just don't know how much noticeable difference there would be going from Mojo to something 4-5x the price given I've read that dac differences are much more apparant on speakers than 'phones.

Appreciate anyone taking the time to read through this and commenting, I know we're all busy.

 

[Mightygrey]

If you're after an all-in-one unit, take a look at the Burson Conductor line, Questyle CMA Twelve, or RME ADI-2 DAC.

 

[iFi audio]

- ifi dsd micro black label

If you're into portable products, then instead of micro iDSD BL you might want to read about our latest Diablo: https://ifi-audio.com/products/idsd-diablo/

 

[Moose246]

Thanks @Mightygrey. In your gear section I see you have various amps/dacs.....do you notice discernable differences between them? I literally have only ever listened to the Mojo so while I'm sure there may be differences I just don't have any concept of perceptibility.

 

[Mightygrey]

Thanks @Mightygrey. In your gear section I see you have various amps/dacs.....do you notice discernable differences between them? I literally have only ever listened to the Mojo so while I'm sure there may be differences I just don't have any concept of perceptibility.

There is some difference between amps, and very minor differences between DACs. It mostly depends on your power and form-factor requirements for your current and future headphones.

 

[Moose246]

If you're after an all-in-one unit, take a look at the Burson Conductor line, Questyle CMA Twelve, or RME ADI-2 DAC.

Went with the RME ADI-2 DAC...just ordered it. Was tough to find anyone who had a negative review of it. Also picked up a Drop THX AAA 789 amp, as I kept coming across people who had that pairing and enjoyed it. (And the amp is used and actually quite cheap, so it was worth the purchase for curiosity vs real need).

Next step is cables! Balanced DAC-Amp, as well as a pair for the Fostex and HD650's (as I understand they take the same cables). If you have any suggestions there I'm all ears. Not looking for anything wildly expensive, but I have no problem paying ~$200 for a good cable.

 

[surfgeorge]

I've had the Mojo for about 2 years and it's been a revelation, taking my music experience to another level.
I had a $4000 DAC from around 2000 in my stereo system and after testing the Mojo in my rig I quickly replaced that DAC 2 with another CHORD product, a used 2Qute in that case.
Later I bought a used Sony NW-ZX2, which had an MRSP of $1200 new to compare it against the Mojo. It was good but missed the life the Mojo injects into the music.
This convinced me that CHORD DACs match my preferences.

TBH I didn't really intend to upgrade but I remained curious about the Hugo 2, and then I found a good used one close by, which gave me the chance to listen before buying.
The difference was bigger than expected. I described it here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-15946054

Long story short - if you like the Mojo, IMO the Hugo 2 is a really good upgrade.
(If you have the budget, 2GO and M-Scaler would also allow future upgrades in functionality or SQ)

 

[Moose246]

I've had the Mojo for about 2 years and it's been a revelation, taking my music experience to another level.
I had a $4000 DAC from around 2000 in my stereo system and after testing the Mojo in my rig I quickly replaced that DAC 2 with another CHORD product, a used 2Qute in that case.
Later I bought a used Sony NW-ZX2, which had an MRSP of $1200 new to compare it against the Mojo. It was good but missed the life the Mojo injects into the music.
This convinced me that CHORD DACs match my preferences.

TBH I didn't really intend to upgrade but I remained curious about the Hugo 2, and then I found a good used one close by, which gave me the chance to listen before buying.
The difference was bigger than expected. I described it here: https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-hugo-2-the-official-thread.831345/post-15946054

Long story short - if you like the Mojo, IMO the Hugo 2 is a really good upgrade.
(If you have the budget, 2GO and M-Scaler would also allow future upgrades in functionality or SQ)

The Mojo being my first foray into the hifi world I think it, and the Chord sound, will always appeal to me. I've been interested in the Hugo variations for that reason, and eventually will likely take the plunge. I bought my Mojo used several years ago and it's starting to show it's age physically....one of the headphone input jacks is broken, for example, and while the battery is still good at some point it will conk out. When that happens I'll need a new portable solution and the Hugo may fit the bill. The ~5x price difference is really hard to swallow....for me to justify that it has to really sound noticeably better than the Mojo. Which, from your opinion, it does, which is good to hear.

 

[Moose246]

@surfgeorge How do you like the HiBy R3? I just bought the R3 Pro but haven't had a lot of listening time yet. I really like the screen and UI though. I'm assuming you got the 3D printed case to stack it with the Mojo?

 

[surfgeorge]

@surfgeorge How do you like the HiBy R3? I just bought the R3 Pro but haven't had a lot of listening time yet. I really like the screen and UI though. I'm assuming you got the 3D printed case to stack it with the Mojo?

I have the non-pro version of the R3 and frankly I think the SQ is just ok, but nothing special.
But I use it exclusively as a transport for the Mojo, and yes, with the 3D printed case and transport box.
Even after 2 years I love the design, both esthetically as well as functionally. With the box I can throw the stack into my bags, carry it anywhere and the case protects the Mojo and R3. It also gives perfect access to the controls and even protects the fragile micro-USB cable to some extent.
The only downside is that the Mojo picks up RFI when the R3's Wifi is on, so it's no good for Tidal streaming. In that case I disconnect the R3 and connect a phone, which anyway has a much better UI.
So for travel this will remain my go to solution.

The Hugo 2 is really more transportable than portable, and I use it mainly as a desktop DAC/Amp. The price is high and I could not have justified buying a new unit, but I think it's small size is somehow misleading here, and it actually really is worth its asking price. The performance and versatility is excellent, as a headphone amplifier, system DAC, or streaming player. If only the 2Go were cheaper...

 

[Deolum]

I started with the Mojo too. Then changed to the Chord 2qute, had the Matrix X-Sabre pro for demo and run now a Metrum Pavane.

Personally i would say go for an all in one unit becaue you have no hassle with good synergy and no hassle with cables then.

 

[Moose246]

I have the non-pro version of the R3 and frankly I think the SQ is just ok, but nothing special.
But I use it exclusively as a transport for the Mojo, and yes, with the 3D printed case and transport box.
Even after 2 years I love the design, both esthetically as well as functionally. With the box I can throw the stack into my bags, carry it anywhere and the case protects the Mojo and R3. It also gives perfect access to the controls and even protects the fragile micro-USB cable to some extent.
The only downside is that the Mojo picks up RFI when the R3's Wifi is on, so it's no good for Tidal streaming. In that case I disconnect the R3 and connect a phone, which anyway has a much better UI.
So for travel this will remain my go to solution.

The Hugo 2 is really more transportable than portable, and I use it mainly as a desktop DAC/Amp. The price is high and I could not have justified buying a new unit, but I think it's small size is somehow misleading here, and it actually really is worth its asking price. The performance and versatility is excellent, as a headphone amplifier, system DAC, or streaming player. If only the 2Go were cheaper...

I would agree with the sound quality assessment even for the R3Pro...pretty average. I also have an older Cayin N5ii which I think sounds better, and when using the Mojo with both I find the sound still sounds better with the Cayin. I do use quite a bit of EQ adj's though, so maybe it's just not being able to get the coloring exactly right to truly compare between the two. That's always been my Achilles heel of sorts - I would probably take an inferior player/sound that I can EQ to my taste over a better "sound" producing DAC (Mojo, etc) with flat or no EQ. Interestingly, and I don't know if you unit does this as well, but when I play hi-res files through the HiBy the EQ isn't used, even if it's switched on. I can toggle it on/off and adjust the sliders with no change to the sound. With redbook rips the EQ works and is clearly noticable.

I actually totally agree with you on the Hugo, and for me the size is actually a plus since it can be used anywhere. It's just that price in general....I don't know that I want to pay that much for any DAC, knowing that for my tastes and likely subpar critical listening ability it may not matter vs the already excellent Mojo. Who knows though, it's like everything in life - it's all relative. Buy a $500 DAC and and then a $1000 one doesn't seem that expensive. Buy a $1000 and then a $1500 one seems reasonable. Buy a $1500 unit and $2500 seems rational.....etc.

 

[surfgeorge]

I would agree with the sound quality assessment even for the R3Pro...pretty average. I also have an older Cayin N5ii which I think sounds better, and when using the Mojo with both I find the sound still sounds better with the Cayin. I do use quite a bit of EQ adj's though, so maybe it's just not being able to get the coloring exactly right to truly compare between the two. That's always been my Achilles heel of sorts - I would probably take an inferior player/sound that I can EQ to my taste over a better "sound" producing DAC (Mojo, etc) with flat or no EQ. Interestingly, and I don't know if you unit does this as well, but when I play hi-res files through the HiBy the EQ isn't used, even if it's switched on. I can toggle it on/off and adjust the sliders with no change to the sound. With redbook rips the EQ works and is clearly noticable.

I actually totally agree with you on the Hugo, and for me the size is actually a plus since it can be used anywhere. It's just that price in general....I don't know that I want to pay that much for any DAC, knowing that for my tastes and likely subpar critical listening ability it may not matter vs the already excellent Mojo. Who knows though, it's like everything in life - it's all relative. Buy a $500 DAC and and then a $1000 one doesn't seem that expensive. Buy a $1000 and then a $1500 one seems reasonable. Buy a $1500 unit and $2500 seems rational.....etc.

You made me laugh! Yes, the Mojo seemed very expensive when I bought it, but I gradually got used to spending more and more.
Re the R3 EQ - this is a limitation of the DSP, and documented that EQ only works up to FLAC quality. It's not powerful enough for HiRes so EQ is disabled.

I'm personally not using EQ much, but no matter if with or without EQ, personally I find that the DAC makes a much bigger difference than it seems at first.
I can listen to the Mojo with my $200 IEMs for hours, but I lose interest quickly listening to the R3 even with my best IEMs.

 

[Moose246]

If you're after an all-in-one unit, take a look at the Burson Conductor line, Questyle CMA Twelve, or RME ADI-2 DAC.

RME ADI-2 arrived today....love it right out of the box. Thanks again for the recommendation!

 

[silent-circuit]

I guess I'm the outlier here? Had a Mojo, sold it on early in the 'process'... the Emotiva PT-100 (at under $400 for an all-in-one DAC/pre/tuner/bluetooth transmitter) sounds just as good to me if not better, backed by thousands upon thousands in speaker gear. Similarly, after owning a Jotunhiem all-in-one and a D90/A90 stack, they both beat the Mojo all around. Granted, $600 all in one, $1500 stack.. yes, they should. If they didn't that'd be embarrassing.

I guess the thing that sets me apart from most is I'm looking for a pure, flat, analytical sound. People talk about how 'pleasant' and 'agreeable' the Chord sound is. Ok, good for you -- to my mind, DACs shouldn't be coloring sound at all, and most seem to agree Chord is. So, as far as I'm concerned, Chord isn't doing their job. If I want EQ in my path, I'll put in dedicated software or hardware.