[Nyerk]

Hi there

I’m one of those lurkers who finally decided to register, so I could ask for some help and guidelines…
I’ll start with saying sorry to those of you who are since long tired of these kind of threads, and apologize for a post that might be unnecessarily long. I just wanted to include as much details as I could, so everyone can have an easier time “understanding” what I’m searching for.

Let’s start with a short introduction

I’d say that my journey into the world of better audio equipment began in 2012, when I purchased the Asus Xonar Essence STX to use with my Sennheiser PC 360 headset. So, I haven’t been into higher-end audio equipment for that long. Please bear with me as I can’t find the correct terms at times.

I can find myself listening to a variety of music genres, but most of the time it’s metal. To name the most important metal sub-genres for me; Melodic, Melodic Death, Neoclassic, Symphonic, Power and similar metal sub-genres. I also listen to a lot of Visual Kei bands, but it’s probably easier to target previously mentioned metal sub-genres as these bands can be all over the place.

With this thread I hope to get some helping hands in finding new daily driver headphones, and a DAC/Amp unit or DAC + Amp combo to power them. My daily drivers will be used for longer periods of time as I work at my desk.


Some quick notes about headphones that I currently own (not including equipment already mentioned above)

Audio Technica ATH-M50
Purchased in 2013, decision made based on countless of reviews and recommendations here at the head-fi forums. May still be my overall favorite pair of headphones in terms of sound.

Ended up being replaced as my daily drivers since I found them to be too uncomfortable to wear for a longer session. The urge for something new, something different also played a role in making that decision.

Sony MDR-1RBT
Purchased in 2015, decision made after testing a variety of headphones in "local" audio stores. Admittedly, the guy in the store might just have been a really good salesman. Original intention when purchasing these headphones were to find something to use on the go, but ended up being used as my daily drivers for reasons mentioned above.

But after some time, I found that the MDR-1RBT wasn’t working as a daily driver either. They were also uncomfortable, mainly becoming too hot. The bass emphasis is slightly too much, and a bit too loose for my taste. Didn’t like the lack of “air” in vocals either.

Philips Fidelio X2
Impulse purchase made during Christmas sales 2016 (€105), but had previously read plenty of recommendations for them here at head-fi, so I thought why not. That’s what I’m using right now, as the comfort is great. But for music, I find them a bit too harsh or grainy, and also too loose in the bass. Again, apologize for not knowing the right terms to express what I hear and feel about these headphones.

Oppo HA-2
Not a pair of headphones but a portable DAC/Amp I purchased back in 2015 for €260, which by the way, rendered the BT part of my MDR-1RBT completely useless Also use it at my desk at times.


So, here I am now, searching for a better, closer to “end game”, audio experience

I was already looking to step out of the €100-200 price range for headphones before purchasing the Fidelio X2, but they were on sale, so it was a learning experience you could say. But now I’m done with this price range, I think I need to step it up to find an upgrade and what I’m searching for.

I’ve been looking around since early 2016, and my eyes have been set on the Focal Elear for the longest time. Even just the way Tyll at innerfidelity describes them in his review summary; extraordinarily dynamic, punchy, slightly laid back character up top and terrific bass tightness. Sounds to nail exactly what I’m looking for. At first I thought maybe it is a bit steep of a climb in price range, but as I’ve been thinking about it for a longer time now I realize that I’d end up in that price range eventually anyway, due to curiosity. So, I could potentially “save” some money by taking this big leap.

However, lately I have noticed more posts here in the head-fi forums mentioning that dip in the midrange on the Focal Elear, and how some find it to affect things like guitars and vocals negatively. Something I previously had problems with on the MDR-1RBT. I know Tyll also mentioned this dip, but he didn’t describe it in a way that gave me second thoughts.

From what I’ve seen on the head-fi forums, the popular recommendation for metal music is planar magnetic headphones. But what worries me about planar magnetic headphones is how some are described as bright or even sibilant at times. There is one pair of planar magnetic headphones that I’ll probably purchase at some point though, mostly based on Tyll’s review. The Oppo PM-3, which would be used on the go as they’d most likely suffer from the same comfort issues as the MDR-1RBT during longer sessions.

I think that covers most of what I can say about headphones. My mind has been set on the Focal Elear for so long now, so even with some doubts, I have a hard time opening up to other candidates. That’s why I turn to you for some help and guiding hands. I’m looking for what is quite a big investment for me after all, and I don’t take it lightly.


Then there was that DAC and Amp

As for DAC/Amp, I don’t know too much about my options here to be honest. I was looking for a balanced setup to use with the Focal Elear while researching. Schiit Jotunheim got my attention at first, but seeing some people call Schiit amps slightly bright at times, it makes me think there is some amount of coloration involved. I want something transparent that is more than capable of driving the headphones I choose, and be able keep up with the music I listen to. What I found so far is the Questyle CMA600i, but would really appreciate some help in this area too. Doesn’t necessarily have to be balanced, can be a DAC/Amp unit or DAC + Amp combo, and preferably not too complicated to get in Europe (Sweden). I want something that I can consider “end game”, not something I’ll feel like I need to upgrade in a couple of years.


Final notes

I know people here at head-fi likes to recommend that you go to meets and such, but for different reasons, that is simply not plausible for me.

I’d like to thank everyone who are willing to take some of their time to help me out in advance, and look forward to hearing from some of you soon!

Sorry mods if this was double posted, when trying to preview the latest edit I got a message saying that I already posted, which wasn't my intention on previous edits.
 

 

[Monsterzero]

welcome man...

Planars are pretty good for metal,especially the HE500 and HE6,but both,esp the 6,are quite demanding on the amp.

Lots of us in the metal thread are getting into the new ZMF headphones,Eikon and/or Atticus...both are top notch headphones as well.My next HP will be the Atticus...My current go to headphones for metal are my AKG K240 sextetts(just amazing for metal),ATH AD2000s and occasionally my HE-6. 

There are certainly lots of other options out there,it just depends on what it is you seek in a headphone.

Try asking over in the metal thread for other ideas,were generally pretty helpful.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/715478/headphones-for-metal-music-ultimate-solution/7455#post_13431643

 

[Nyerk]

Thanks for the reply and welcoming!
 
I've been checking out the metal thread from time to time, that's where I've seen all the recommendations for planars before as mentioned. I'll probably post there in the future, but decided to make a thread first as I’d be interested in opinions from non-metalheads as well, heh.

What worries me about the Eikon and Atticus is comfort, since they are only vented and use leather pads. But I guess if the sound can make up for the comfort, might still be a good candidate. Will definitely look into those as well as the HE500 some more, thanks!

 

[Monsterzero]

Yeah comfort is a subjective thing so i cant tell you one way or the other,but for the record,many people find the HE-500 uncomfortable too.

When I tried out the Atticus i did not have an issue with comfort,but then again I dont have comfort issues with too many HPs. 

 

[Nyerk]

Spending only a few hours reading and listening to reviews about the Atticus and Eikon, I can say that the Padauk Eikon is a very strong contender for me now.

While having two strong candidates for headphones doesn’t make the decision easier, it is good that I got another one as I’m actually leaning more towards the Eikon rather than the Elear right now. Good thing you brought it to my attention!

Finding a DAC and Amp got trickier though, as the Eikon are a bit harder to drive compared to the Elear. The world of desktop DAC and Amps is still a bit overwhelming for me, so much to take in. Since I want a rather transparent setup, I don’t really have to look into tubes that much, for now at least. But then there are things like the iFi Audio PRO iCan that has both tube and solid-state, heh… Fitting something like the iFi Audio PRO iCan in my budget together with a balanced DAC could be a bit troublesome though.

 

[Stillhart]

Don't worry about a balanced DAC and Amp just yet.  People make too much of balanced on here.  Yes, it can make a difference.  No probably not at the price points most of us are looking at.  Get the best DAC and Amp you can afford regardless of whether it's balanced or not.
 
Without having an idea of your budget, I'd say something like a Mojo+Liquid Carbon is a pretty safe combo that should sound good with most everything.

 

[Nyerk]

My planed total budget for headphones, DAC and Amp is €3000. If I spend let’s say €1400 on the ZMF Eikon, that leaves me with up to €1600 for a DAC and Amp stack or DAC/Amp unit. If I end up going for the Elear, well that would leave around €2000 open, which to me almost sound a bit crazy now as I’m typing it, heh.

Balanced output isn’t necessary, just something that to me sounds like it could make a kind of difference that I’d like. But I obviously can’t know for sure since I haven’t tried either option, I just know that I don’t want to end up upgrading in a couple of years.

I’ve seen the Mojo as well as the Liquid Carbon being mentioned a lot here in the head-fi forums. Based on comments and reviews, both seem to have some warm coloration though, so not sure if that really is the path I’d be interested in going for. Don’t know if it’s still possible to get a Liquid Carbon either.

 

[Stillhart]

 
My planed total budget for headphones, DAC and Amp is €3000. If I spend let’s say €1400 on the ZMF Eikon, that leaves me with up to €1600 for a DAC and Amp stack or DAC/Amp unit. If I end up going for the Elear, well that would leave around €2000 open, which to me almost sound a bit crazy now as I’m typing it, heh.

Balanced output isn’t necessary, just something that to me sounds like it could make a kind of difference that I’d like. But I obviously can’t know for sure since I haven’t tried either option, I just know that I don’t want to end up upgrading in a couple of years.

I’ve seen the Mojo as well as the Liquid Carbon being mentioned a lot here in the head-fi forums. Based on comments and reviews, both seem to have some warm coloration though, so not sure if that really is the path I’d be interested in going for. Don’t know if it’s still possible to get a Liquid Carbon either.

 
Fair enough re coloration.  Though, if you're not into warm coloration, you might want to avoid the Elear.  The Eikon is bassy but more balanced sounding than the Elear with its weird dip in the upper mids and big bass.  
 
Mojo is slightly warm tinged but nothing crazy.  I suggest it because I find it to be one of the best DAC's you can get (portable or not) for the price.  I'm also a big fan of non D-S DAC's and for some reason most of those tend to lean slightly warm.  GMB might suit you but it's a big chunk of your budget at $1250.  You could probably get away with a solid but inexpensive DAC (e.g. the Modi 2 Uber) and a top notch amp like the Wells Audio Milo.
 
Anyways, once you decide on a headphone, you should probably go ask about a nice DAC/Amp pairing in the appropriate thread.  People there will have lots of ideas.  For the record, I do like the Elear but I much prefer the ZMF simply because I like a more balanced sound.  You really can't go wrong with either.

 

[Nyerk]

   
Fair enough re coloration.  Though, if you're not into warm coloration, you might want to avoid the Elear.  The Eikon is bassy but more balanced sounding than the Elear with its weird dip in the upper mids and big bass.  
 
Mojo is slightly warm tinged but nothing crazy.  I suggest it because I find it to be one of the best DAC's you can get (portable or not) for the price.  I'm also a big fan of non D-S DAC's and for some reason most of those tend to lean slightly warm.  GMB might suit you but it's a big chunk of your budget at $1250.  You could probably get away with a solid but inexpensive DAC (e.g. the Modi 2 Uber) and a top notch amp like the Wells Audio Milo.
 
Anyways, once you decide on a headphone, you should probably go ask about a nice DAC/Amp pairing in the appropriate thread.  People there will have lots of ideas.  For the record, I do like the Elear but I much prefer the ZMF simply because I like a more balanced sound.  You really can't go wrong with either.

I don’t mind warm coloration in headphones too much, all my current headphones have it more or less after all. But I don’t know, I've just set my head on a more neutral DAC and Amp, let the headphones do the coloring if there is any. If the Mojo is only slightly warm tinged like you say, maybe I should stay open to it as an option for DAC.

As you mention Gungnir multibit, is multibit something you’d value in a DAC personally? Another question for you, if I may, what about the non delta-sigma DAC’s make you a fan of them?

I really appreciate all the input I can get, so thank you for all the help!

 

[Stillhart]

 
I don’t mind warm coloration in headphones too much, all my current headphones have it more or less after all. But I don’t know, I've just set my head on a more neutral DAC and Amp, let the headphones do the coloring if there is any. If the Mojo is only slightly warm tinged like you say, maybe I should stay open to it as an option for DAC.

As you mention Gungnir multibit, is multibit something you’d value in a DAC personally? Another question for you, if I may, what about the non delta-sigma DAC’s make you a fan of them?

I really appreciate all the input I can get, so thank you for all the help!

 
If I were you, I'd definitely stay open-minded about the Mojo.  It took me a while to get my hands on one, but once I dis a real A/B at home with my gear against my DAC, I knew I had to have one.  I spent a long time listenening to different DAC's in different flavors and educating myself on them because... well... there wasn't a ton of reliable info about the differences between different DAC topologies at the time.  R2R/Multibit was just coming back into fashion and I realized quickly once I tried it that I prefer it significantly to Delta-Sigma.  
 
The biggest difference to my ears is what I'll call realistic tonality.  I am a drummer and to me D-S DAC's, in general (yes, this is a generalization, take it for what it's worth), tend to sound really digital in the cymbal range of the FR.  R2R/Multibit reproduces that sound much better and makes cymbals actually sound like cymbals to my ears.  It's like the difference between a Speak-n-Spell trying to pronounce the letter "S" and a real person... one sounds like just digital static.  Obviously that's an extreme comparison, but it should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.  And other musicians that I know also seem to prefer R2R:  guitarists say the guitars sound more realistic, pianists say the same, etc.  
 
Now some people don't hear the difference or don't super care and that's totally fine.  They prefer the detail of D-S (which sounds artificial to me).  For me though, I really prefer not to use D-S if I can avoid it.  And for the record, the Chord DAC's are custom implementation that aren't really R2R or D-S, they call it a Pulse Array.  To my ears it seems to have the realistic tonality of R2R and the detail of D-S -- a best of both worlds scenario.
 
Anyways, I've ranted about this subject many many times in the past.  Sorry to everyone who is reading this for the nth time.  :-D  Let me know if you have any more questions.  Sometimes I'm not sure if my longer rambling responses are getting my point across.

 

[saidentary]

Another amplifier that you may want to consider is the MicroZOTL 2 by Linear Tube Audio.  I have the original (cheapest) version with no upgrades whatsoever and it sounds great to me.  My headphones are original version HE-1000s (which I think sound extremely similar to the updated version....and now you can get the original version for way below the original price because so many people panicked after the new version came out...) and the DAC is an Arcam irDAC.  The HE-1000s are not sibliant (some people think they actually sound rolled off....I don't). 
 
Whatever you decide, you'll be able to find something really nice with the budget you've specified.  This will end well for you, I think.

 

[Nyerk]

   
If I were you, I'd definitely stay open-minded about the Mojo.  It took me a while to get my hands on one, but once I dis a real A/B at home with my gear against my DAC, I knew I had to have one.  I spent a long time listenening to different DAC's in different flavors and educating myself on them because... well... there wasn't a ton of reliable info about the differences between different DAC topologies at the time.  R2R/Multibit was just coming back into fashion and I realized quickly once I tried it that I prefer it significantly to Delta-Sigma.  
 
The biggest difference to my ears is what I'll call realistic tonality.  I am a drummer and to me D-S DAC's, in general (yes, this is a generalization, take it for what it's worth), tend to sound really digital in the cymbal range of the FR.  R2R/Multibit reproduces that sound much better and makes cymbals actually sound like cymbals to my ears.  It's like the difference between a Speak-n-Spell trying to pronounce the letter "S" and a real person... one sounds like just digital static.  Obviously that's an extreme comparison, but it should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.  And other musicians that I know also seem to prefer R2R:  guitarists say the guitars sound more realistic, pianists say the same, etc.  
 
Now some people don't hear the difference or don't super care and that's totally fine.  They prefer the detail of D-S (which sounds artificial to me).  For me though, I really prefer not to use D-S if I can avoid it.  And for the record, the Chord DAC's are custom implementation that aren't really R2R or D-S, they call it a Pulse Array.  To my ears it seems to have the realistic tonality of R2R and the detail of D-S -- a best of both worlds scenario.
 
Anyways, I've ranted about this subject many many times in the past.  Sorry to everyone who is reading this for the nth time.  :-D  Let me know if you have any more questions.  Sometimes I'm not sure if my longer rambling responses are getting my point across.

I found your longer rambling response very helpful I should be the one apologizing though, making you answer questions that you’ve, by the sound of it, already answered many times before I do appreciate that you took some of your time to do so though!

I’m a drummer hobbyist myself, in my case aka, a not so skilled drummer, heh. But the drums are something that I do like to pay a lot of attention to in music, so I can relate to wanting a more real sound for cymbals.

I guess looking for R2R or Chord’s pulse array DAC’s will narrow down things a bit more, which I’d say is helpful, heh. Thanks again, I might bother you with more questions in the future, after I’ve done some more reading!

  Another amplifier that you may want to consider is the MicroZOTL 2 by Linear Tube Audio.  I have the original (cheapest) version with no upgrades whatsoever and it sounds great to me.  My headphones are original version HE-1000s (which I think sound extremely similar to the updated version....and now you can get the original version for way below the original price because so many people panicked after the new version came out...) and the DAC is an Arcam irDAC.  The HE-1000s are not sibliant (some people think they actually sound rolled off....I don't). 
 
Whatever you decide, you'll be able to find something really nice with the budget you've specified.  This will end well for you, I think.

Since I put my mind on going for a neutral DAC and Amp from the start pretty much, I have very little knowledge about tube amps to be honest. The early impression that I got was tubes in general have a warm colored sound.

The music I tend to listen to is quite fast and quite complex a lot of the time. So, I want something that can control that speed, put out every detail in a complex mix and still be every bit dynamic. The thing with warm coloring in amp and/or DAC that worries me, is that the bass and lower mids will lose some of that control, tightness, and detail I’m looking for. But as mentioned, I lack knowledge about tube amps, and probably amps in general I guess. So, I’ll take a look at the MicroZOTL 2 thread, see if it can be a potential fit for me.

Will do further research on the HE-1000s and Arcam irDAC as well, see how those would potentially fit in my budget.
 
Really appreciate the suggestions, thanks!

 

[Stillhart]

 

I found your longer rambling response very helpful I should be the one apologizing though, making you answer questions that you’ve, by the sound of it, already answered many times before I do appreciate that you took some of your time to do so though!

I’m a drummer hobbyist myself, in my case aka, a not so skilled drummer, heh. But the drums are something that I do like to pay a lot of attention to in music, so I can relate to wanting a more real sound for cymbals.

I guess looking for R2R or Chord’s pulse array DAC’s will narrow down things a bit more, which I’d say is helpful, heh. Thanks again, I might bother you with more questions in the future, after I’ve done some more reading!

 
If you're a drummer, you may want to reconsider the Elear all together.  If you haven't already, you might check out my full review of the Elear where I talk about the dip in the upper mids and how it affects the drums.  To quote myself:
 

 I spent a lot of time testing different tracks listening to how the treble tuning affected the presentation.  In many cases, it toned back harshness in a range that people can find unappealing.  For instance certain cymbal splashes can be harsh on brighter headphones, but never on the Elear.  In some cases, the hi-hat cymbal would fall in the laid-back range and push it way back in the mix, while the other cymbals were unaffected, being higher in the frequency range.  As a drummer, I found that distracting, but it only happened on a minority of songs.  More often than not, I’d just hear a nice reduction in sibilance and other fatiguing sounds.  On those tracks, the treble offers an appealing balance of smoothness and extension. I didn’t find any pattern to genres that were more affected by the treble than others.  It really seemed to come down to the mastering of any given track.  “Acid Rain” by Liquid Tension Experiment is a great example of a track where I found the hi-hat to be pushed back in the mix compared to the rest of the drums.  In contrast, “Sledgehammer” by Peter Gabriel and “Chameleon” by Herbie Hancock had no such issues.

 

[Nyerk]

  If you're a drummer, you may want to reconsider the Elear all together.  If you haven't already, you might check out my full review of the Elear where I talk about the dip in the upper mids and how it affects the drums.  To quote myself:
 

Hmm, I've read your full review of the Elear now, and it does add some more weight to ZMF's side of the scale.

However, I had a look at a fellow newbie's thread and noticed the Aeon. I had not heard about these previously, so decided to take a quick look in the MrSpeakers' Aeon thread, as well as on the website. They seem somewhat interesting, but I'm curious how'd they compare to the Eikon.

Maybe not the best/most fair comparison in my case if I think about it, as I’m not really looking for headphones that are good portables right now. I had the Oppo PM-3 in mind for that later on as mentioned in the op, so could potentially be PM-3 vs Aeon in the future.

But still, I am curious how well you’d think the Aeon fits with what I’m looking for in my next pair of headphones?

 

[Stillhart]

 
Hmm, I've read your full review of the Elear now, and it does add some more weight to ZMF's side of the scale.

However, I had a look at a fellow newbie's thread and noticed the Aeon. I had not heard about these previously, so decided to take a quick look in the MrSpeakers' Aeon thread, as well as on the website. They seem somewhat interesting, but I'm curious how'd they compare to the Eikon.

Maybe not the best/most fair comparison in my case if I think about it, as I’m not really looking for headphones that are good portables right now. I had the Oppo PM-3 in mind for that later on as mentioned in the op, so could potentially be PM-3 vs Aeon in the future.

But still, I am curious how well you’d think the Aeon fits with what I’m looking for in my next pair of headphones?

 
Well I have a full AEON review up on that website too if you want to peruse my thoughts on it.  (And I'm working on an Eikon review as we speak but that's a few days/weeks out.)
 
The AEON shouldn't be thought of as "just a portable".  It can be used as a portable thanks to it being relatively small, easy to drive, etc.  But it should be thought of as a very good regular old closed headphone that can also be used as a portable.  The AEON and Eikon are pretty different form factors so it's almost apples and oranges.  The Eikon is definitely not a portable... it's bulky and heavy and scales well with power.
 
So I pulled out the AEON and Eikon just now to do a direct A/B comparison on my home system (Mojo into Liquid Crimson these days) and they actually have a very similar tonal balance.  The Eikon does have a bit more mid-bass and it's that big-feeling dynamic bass.  The AEON has tight, punchy planar bass for a satisfying but dfifferent experience.  The Eikon feels much more spacious in the staging, making the AEON feel like a closed headphone by comparison.  I find this interesting because I'm used to the AEON stage at this point and never thought of it as particularly small, the Eikon just has a nice big stage.  The last major difference is that the Eikon just feels more... lush.  Everything has more body and weight making the AEON feel thin and dry in comparison... or one might call it clean to use a less negative term.  And again, that's only in direct comparison because I love the AEON and don't find it particularly thin normally.
 
I use my AEON (I bought my review unit) every day at work for hours a day and it's a great headphone.  That said I've been using the Eikon for hours a day at home after work and it's also a great headphone.  In direct comparison, I think the Eikon is more colorful and involving and it scales better with high end gear.  But it's also heavier, and bulkier and $500 more expensive.  But it's hand-made and gorgeous and built to last through a nuclear apocalypse.  But it also feels old-fashioned next to the sleek, modern AEON.  They're so different in so many ways yet very similar in overall sound.  It's a really fascinating comparison.
 
Anyhow, enough rambling for now.  I love the Eikon and the AEON.  I love Dan (MrSpeakers) and Zach (ZMF).  You really can't go wrong with either.  If you want to know what's better for your music, list off some band names.  I listen to metal but not enough to know all the little variations by name.  Fortunately I've got Tidal so I can demo some stuff and let you know.