Newbie question about DIY/Kit Pocket Amps

[Kamwi]

Hello everyone!
 
I have been a lurker of the Head-Fi community for a little while now and I have been meaning to ask about this for a while but just haven't had time. I consider this to be a respectable and mature community, and all I ask of said community is not to treat me differently because of my age, I may be young, but I am one of the few few people in this world that understands the concept of Respect.
 
Anyway, back on topic.
 
I am looking at a couple of different amps to build for my new Senn's.
 
Cmoy BB: http://cgi.ebay.com/Bass-Boost-cMoy-v2-02-Amp-Premium-Headphone-Amplifier-/130453955237?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e5fa962a5
Indeed G2 Tube: http://cgi.ebay.com/New-G2-Headphone-Tube-Amplifier-12AU7-Class-Pre-Amp-/250727086610?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a607fba12
PA2v2: http://cgi.ebay.com/PA2V2-Headphones-Amplifier-Rechargeable-Headphone-Amp-/190468066182?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c58c80b86
HiEnd ("Panda"?): http://cgi.ebay.com/HiEnd-Headphone-AMP-KIT-Drive-AKG-and-Sennheiser-good-/180579438949?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0b5f9165
 
I am not afraid of soldering and I have been doing it for years now, HOWEVER, I DO NOT get along with SMD parts at all. Not yet at least.
 
I was looking at the CMoyBB the most at first, but then I ran into these others, I like the PA2v2 alot, I love the idea of a tube amp, but it may not be ideal for me, and the HiEnd I JUST saw today on the HF website.
 
As far as what this will be driving is a new set of Senn low 400's that are brand new, I can't remember what model, I want to say 430, but that may be off. I listen to all kinds of music, Blues, New/Classic Rock, Country, sometimes big band, lots of Techno and EBM style stuff, LOTS of blues and guitar stuff, basically all across the band spectrum. I don't want them super loud or anything, just stronger, from an iPhone 3GS and from a Old school Zune Classic 30Gb, maybe even from my OLD Marantz (sp?) Gold Series radio.
 
Please help guys, I know there are some helpful doods out here that know all about this stuff.
 
Thank you in advance, and whoever helps me the most will receive a gift from me in the future. I am a man of my word.

 
EDIT: 11/19
I have decided to remove the tube amp from my list for my first.

 

[kalinowski]

Hi Kamwi,
 
First of all, you need to figure out the absolute maximum you want to spend on that thing because that would be one of the main factors you should consider. 
Kit is a way to go when you're starting with DIY, but if I were you I wouldn't buy one from ebay. I'd choose something from amb labs or other respected members of the forum. I'd say mini^3 may be a good choice for you. It's not expensive, tons of helpful info on the forum and it will drive your sennheisers just fine. It has two smd opamps though, but watching youtube soldering tutorials should be enough to get it done well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2UEGLJeAI&feature=related
You'll gonna have to learn it anyway and you really don't need any other tools than for through hole parts(except for flux which is cheap).
 
good luck and let everybody know what you decided
 
Michal

 

[Kamwi]

 
Quote:

Hi Kamwi,
 
First of all, you need to figure out the absolute maximum you want to spend on that thing because that would be one of the main factors you should consider. 
Kit is a way to go when you're starting with DIY, but if I were you I wouldn't buy one from ebay. I'd choose something from amb labs or other respected members of the forum. I'd say mini^3 may be a good choice for you. It's not expensive, tons of helpful info on the forum and it will drive your sennheisers just fine. It has two smd opamps though, but watching youtube soldering tutorials should be enough to get it done well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0O2UEGLJeAI&feature=related
You'll gonna have to learn it anyway and you really don't need any other tools than for through hole parts(except for flux which is cheap).
 
good luck and let everybody know what you decided
 
Michal

Michal,
 
Thanks for your reply. I am looking at spending about $50-$75 on a kit. I would like to know why a tube amp is preferred (for some) over a conventional electronic amp. I was not planning on buying from ebay, but the PA2v2 is only sold there or full retail on his site. Where can I find info on a Mini3? Thanks for the quick reply.
 
Cameron.

 

[Beftus]

Mini3 info here: http://www.amb.org/audio/mini3/
Making a Mini3 for less than $75 is a tall order. Did you take shipping costs into account? The Mini3 only has two SMD opamps, the rest of the parts is through-hole.
 
Why tube amps? Because some people like them. Listen to a few, then decide if you like 'm enough to want to own one (or two). The "Starving Student" is a fairly cheap to make tube amp that sounds great. There's a long thread here: http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/319231/millett-starving-student-hybrid-amp

 

[Avro_Arrow]

Of the amps you mentioned, I think the Panda is the best
bang for the buck right now. You will need to add a few
parts to the kit to finish it but it is all "through hole" components.
You will also need to work with AC line voltages as it is
wall powered only.
 
The little tube amp is not too bad either, I have one myself.
 
The two battery powered amps, while quite nice in their own
right, are not in the same class as the wall powered amps.
 
Do you want a wall powered amp or a battery powered amp?
 
There are basically four options:
 
1. Take a schematic and do everything else yourself.
2. Get a pre-made board and source the parts yourself.
3 Get a kit of parts and assemble yourself.
4 Buy a pre-made, finished product.
 
Which of these options appeals to you the most?

 

[kalinowski]

 
 
Quote:

I would like to know why a tube amp is preferred (for some) over a conventional electronic amp

Tubes are told to produce more even than odd harmonics. Transistors do oposite thing. Long story short what is interesting for us is that even harmonics are more pleasant for our ears and that's why tube amps are believed to sound nicer. 
Thing is that tubes(we're talking about "preamp tubes" now) are made to work with high anode voltage. That is in a range of hundred something to 200-300, depending on type. Of course there are low voltage ones, like ecc86 that were designed to be used in car audio, hence the low voltage operating region. But most commonly used in beginner amp kits are ecc83 or ecc88 or cheap chinese equivalents. Bottom line is, that when you use a tube that's designed to operate at anode voltage = 250V and put it to 12V amp it's gonna produce a lot of distortion. It still may be pleasant to listen to, but that's not what amp building is all about IMO. Transistors will do much better qualitywise in low voltage applications.
 
If you still want to read some more about tube amps I'd recomend you to google some OTL(output-transformerless) designs based around 6080 tube. That's what I built for one of my first amps. The voltage isn't too high and it has just handfull of parts. There's even kit beeing offered:
http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=44&rn=442&action=show_detail
but IMO it's a little bit overpriced, you can make one on a piece of plywood for 50$.
 
BUT i'd really recommend some soldering practice and some reading to get a grasp about general electronics cause it's easy to get shocked if you don't know what to touch. 
 
Anyway, let us know what are your electronic skills and I may be able to point you to some more reading. Have you already worked with mains voltage? Or just battery designs?
 
m.

 

[kalinowski]

also, you may like this(it's over your budget though)
http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/aialls.html
and some reading to that kit:
http://www.tubecad.com/Product_PDFs/Aikido_All_in_One.pdf

 

[Kamwi]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, it has been a lot of help so far. I have a decent amount of experience with both 120v and 12v electronics and soldering of the two, I also have experience in sourcing polarity for both voltages. I would prefer a battery setup that I can take with me, but I am open to wall-sourced setups as well. Of the four you listed, 1-3 sound more of my type, 1 might be a little over my head, but its nothing i can't handle with some research. I would be perfectly fine with option two or three. I would assume two would be the most cost-effective for me, I even have a couple of Mouser and Digikey catalogs around here somewhere.
 
Quote:

Of the amps you mentioned, I think the Panda is the best
bang for the buck right now. You will need to add a few
parts to the kit to finish it but it is all "through hole" components.
You will also need to work with AC line voltages as it is
wall powered only.
 
The little tube amp is not too bad either, I have one myself.
 
The two battery powered amps, while quite nice in their own
right, are not in the same class as the wall powered amps.
 
Do you want a wall powered amp or a battery powered amp?
 
There are basically four options:
 
1. Take a schematic and do everything else yourself.
2. Get a pre-made board and source the parts yourself.
3 Get a kit of parts and assemble yourself.
4 Buy a pre-made, finished product.
 
Which of these options appeals to you the most?

 

[Avro_Arrow]

For battery powered amps check out AMB and Tangent if have have not done so yet.
Both the Mini^3 and PIMETA v2 are nice battery powered amps.
Most of the hybrid tube amps that are popular right now use 24 volts supplies for
the tubes so they are pretty safe to handle but as was mentioned before, these voltages
are not what the tubes were designed for. One exception to this is Alex Cavalli. His designs
use a voltage multiplier to get the tube up to 60 volts or so which gets the tubes into
a more usable region. Check out the SOHA II. SOHA II boards are available at Glass Jar Audio.
Do a little more research and reading and come back with some more questions.
Its so much more fun building something your self than buying a finished product.
If you want to start making your own boards, check out the Toner Transfer thread
and the Photo Etching thread.
 
Good Luck!

 

[Kamwi]

Quote:

For battery powered amps check out AMB and Tangent if have have not done so yet.
Both the Mini^3 and PIMETA v2 are nice battery powered amps.
Most of the hybrid tube amps that are popular right now use 24 volts supplies for
the tubes so they are pretty safe to handle but as was mentioned before, these voltages
are not what the tubes were designed for. One exception to this is Alex Cavalli. His designs
use a voltage multiplier to get the tube up to 60 volts or so which gets the tubes into
a more usable region. Check out the SOHA II. SOHA II boards are available at Glass Jar Audio.
Do a little more research and reading and come back with some more questions.
Its so much more fun building something your self than buying a finished product.
If you want to start making your own boards, check out the Toner Transfer thread
and the Photo Etching thread.
 
Good Luck!

Thanks for all the help AA, but I have a few more questions real quick.
 
I am no longer considering a Tube amp, I am still considering the Panda, CMoyBB, and the premade PA2v2. My headphones are Senn HD428's. I am leaning on the PA2, but I don't know how these amps will compare to one another. I do want the option for a good bass boost, which is why I found the CMoyBB in the first place. Please tell me what you think would be best for my setup. I like the Panda, but its not really made for pocket carry, where the CMoyBB and the PA2 are. Whatever I end up with, it WILL be carried probably every day, and I would HIGHLY prefer a rechargeable system, like the PA2.
 
Thanks in advance, you have been a great help.

 

[Avro_Arrow]

Being a member of the trade, I am restricted from rating any other manufacturers product.
That being said, either one of those two portable amps will do a good job. Did you have a
look at the PIMETA and Mini^3 as well? The Panda is definitely not a portable amp as it
requires AC to operate. Any battery powered amp can use rechargeable  batteries, you
just might have to come up with the charger yourself. I salvage Lithium Ion cells from 
old laptop battery pack and reuse them for my amps. Of course you have to have a
good understanding of Lithium batteries to do this...
 
Feel free to ask any other questions you have.
There are no dumb questions, just dumb answers.

 

[tomb]

Quote:

For battery powered amps check out AMB and Tangent if have have not done so yet.
Both the Mini^3 and PIMETA v2 are nice battery powered amps.
Most of the hybrid tube amps that are popular right now use 24 volts supplies for
the tubes so they are pretty safe to handle but as was mentioned before, these voltages
are not what the tubes were designed for. One exception to this is Alex Cavalli. His designs
use a voltage multiplier to get the tube up to 60 volts or so which gets the tubes into
a more usable region. Check out the SOHA II. SOHA II boards are available at Glass Jar Audio.
Do a little more research and reading and come back with some more questions.
Its so much more fun building something your self than buying a finished product.
If you want to start making your own boards, check out the Toner Transfer thread
and the Photo Etching thread.
 
Good Luck!

I'm not sure which hybrids you're referring to?  All of the Millett Hybrids, MAXes, MiniMAXes use 24V power supplies, but all of tubes those amps use were most definitely designed for 12V on the plates.  The 24V supplies are more than enough to provide their optimum published operating points.  As for the Starving Student Millett Hybrid, it's true that the tubes use a lot lower voltage than what they were designed for, but it uses a 48V supply, not 24V.

 

[Avro_Arrow]

The OP had originally mentioned the Bravo/Indeed tube hybrid amps...
 
Quote:

Quote:

For battery powered amps check out AMB and Tangent if have have not done so yet.
Both the Mini^3 and PIMETA v2 are nice battery powered amps.
Most of the hybrid tube amps that are popular right now use 24 volts supplies for
the tubes so they are pretty safe to handle but as was mentioned before, these voltages
are not what the tubes were designed for. One exception to this is Alex Cavalli. His designs
use a voltage multiplier to get the tube up to 60 volts or so which gets the tubes into
a more usable region. Check out the SOHA II. SOHA II boards are available at Glass Jar Audio.
Do a little more research and reading and come back with some more questions.
Its so much more fun building something your self than buying a finished product.
If you want to start making your own boards, check out the Toner Transfer thread
and the Photo Etching thread.
 
Good Luck!

I'm not sure which hybrids you're referring to?  All of the Millett Hybrids, MAXes, MiniMAXes use 24V power supplies, but all of tubes those amps use were most definitely designed for 12V on the plates.  The 24V supplies are more than enough to provide their optimum published operating points.  As for the Starving Student Millett Hybrid, it's true that the tubes use a lot lower voltage than what they were designed for, but it uses a 48V supply, not 24V.

 

[Kamwi]

I like both the PIMETA2 and the Mini3, however, I am worried about an enclosure for the PIMETA, but I love the 'scratchpad' built into the design, and the Mini3 looks awesome, but I'm a perfectionist and The enclosure and front panel would be required for me, which might make it a little outta my price range, maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see an estimated price for either one, I do not mind buying individual parts either.

It appears that my current 'picklist' is the PA2v2, CMoyBB, PINETA v2, and the Mini3. I would like to learn a little personal thoughts about the Mini3 and the PIMETA, as it appears that they are often built.

Thanks everyone, you have been more help then I could have ever imagined.

 

[Avro_Arrow]

The PIMETA is designed for this case.
There are different versions of the case depending
on what batteries you want to use.
 
Quote:

I like both the PIMETA2 and the Mini3, however, I am worried about an enclosure for the PIMETA, but I love the 'scratchpad' built into the design, and the Mini3 looks awesome, but I'm a perfectionist and The enclosure and front panel would be required for me, which might make it a little outta my price range, maybe I'm blind, but I didn't see an estimated price for either one, I do not mind buying individual parts either.

It appears that my current 'picklist' is the PA2v2, CMoyBB, PINETA v2, and the Mini3. I would like to learn a little personal thoughts about the Mini3 and the PIMETA, as it appears that they are often built.

Thanks everyone, you have been more help then I could have ever imagined.