[killertofu]

Hey everyone, loaded question ahead:

A month ago took the first step to higher-quality audio and bought a pair of Portapros, which to me sound excellent. I use them on my iphone and have noticed parts of music that I haven't heard before, its great! However, here's where I'm clueless and need some help.

I'm currently using a Creative Audigy 4 sound card along with Logitech z2300s on my PC. The sound card is marginally better than on-board, but still lacks the clarity my iphone has (which is weird to me because I've always thought the ipod/iphone was terrible in quality). I've been tossing around the idea of buying a new sound card and a pair of Audioengine A2s but am clueless about improved audio and am on a college budget.

I did some searching on the forum and came across equipment like the Behringer UCA202 DAC. Can this essentially be used as an external soundcard for my Portapros and future A2s? Like the X-Fi Go?

I also came across the Headphonia USB DAC cable; would this be a good option as well? As for internal equipment, I only have one PCI slot available.
My budget is less than $70 if at all possible.

What would you recommend that will produce comparable quality to my iphone while keeping my budget in mind? What is your go-to equipment for people getting into improved audio?

Thanks for the advice.

 

[CSMR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by killertofu /img/forum/go_quote.gif A month ago took the first step to higher-quality audio and bought a pair of Portapros, which to me sound excellent.

Yes. Even though I own more expensive phones, I'm still happy to walk around with these.
Quote:

I'm currently using a Creative Audigy 4 sound card along with Logitech z2300s on my PC. ... I've been tossing around the idea of buying a new sound card and a pair of Audioengine A2s but am clueless about improved audio and am on a college budget.

OK these you should replace if possible. If you want stereo output get some active monitors.
One simple check that the monitors conform to basic design principles is there should be power and line inputs on both speakers. E.g. the Audioengine A2s aren't proper active speakers but are just passive speakers with passive crossovers and an internal amp. Spending a little bit more will give a big jump in quality. KRK Rokit RP5 speakers are often recommended.
Quote:

The sound card is marginally better than on-board, but still lacks the clarity my iphone has (which is weird to me because I've always thought the ipod/iphone was terrible in quality). I did some searching on the forum and came across equipment like the Behringer UCA202 DAC. Can this essentially be used as an external soundcard for my Portapros and future A2s? Like the X-Fi Go? ... I also came across the Headphonia USB DAC cable; would this be a good option as well? As for internal equipment, I only have one PCI slot available. My budget is less than $70 if at all possible. What would you recommend that will produce comparable quality to my iphone while keeping my budget in mind? What is your go-to equipment for people getting into improved audio? Thanks for the advice.

I'd look for a soundcard that has at a minimum a headphone output with analog volume control (a volume knob in other words). Otherwise you are doing all your attenuation digitally and losing resolution.

So the so-called "USB DAC" cable is out. The Behringer should be better than what you get from portable devices, and is probably the minimum I would recommend considering.

 

[killertofu]

Great advice CSMR, I'll keep it in consideration before buying equipment.

I am having a little trouble understanding how the Behringer UCA202 works though. I found a diagram on amazon which explains a bit, but was curious... can the UCA202 receive audio via USB, or is USB only for power? If it only receives audio signal through the RCA stereo input, wouldn't it pointless for me to buy it since my sound card sucks?

Here's the diagram on Amazon:

Edited for correction.

 

[Hybrys]

That configuration would only use USB for power. Which I believe is the point of the device, and yes, being driven by whatever sound card you have active. (And probably not filtered at all... It looks like a basic audio switch...)

I'd look into a cheap and decent DAC/Amp combo. Superior audio quality to most sound cards (ALL laptop sound cards?). I can't recommend any off the top of my head that's cheap, AND has an amp in it, but, I'm getting a Little Dot DAC_I ($300 (!)) and have a really good PPA amp (a DIY project, unknown parts cost. Cost me $120 built.)

 

[khaos974]

I am not sure that for 70$ you'll get a better quality than that of the Audigy 4. While it's not "audiophile" in any regards, it should be competent enough.

Maybe the difference you hear between your iphone and your pc are due to other factor: attention and mood. You likely listen to your iphone in while in transport, on you bed, where there's nothing else to distract you. On the other hand, you may be listening to your pc while browsing.

Relax, switch off the lights and just listen on you computer without doing something else before you decide spending more money. If it really turns out the quality is not all that, then consider changing, not before.

 

[Operandi]

I have a friend that has that Behringer and he thinks it sucks, he prefers the onboard sound actually.

Also the Audigy 4 is a better source than the iPhone. The iPhone might have a bit more power than Audigy so maybe thats what you are hearing.

I guess I would suggest you save up for a external DAC headphone amp combo. The Firestone Fubar would be a good one that is good enough to stick with through several headphone / speaker upgrades.

 

[LUCIDD]

Well, I can't comment much on the dac - as I use my pioneer amp for dac. But I do have an iPhone as well... And I may be able to shed some light on why you feel it have more clarity and sounds better than your sound card.

Firstly, you may want to try looking at your control panel settings on your computer-->sound settings or in your sound card settings... and ensure you have it set on the highest bit rate 24 or 32bit @192khz or higher... Then play some flac files- lossless format on your computer.

Then consider this: the iPhone does have eq'ing- so does iTunes: play mp3 from your iTunes and compare to: WMP - big difference. The iTunes may sound clearer but it is because it has a built into the program eq(similar to srs wow fx). Does it make it sound better??- maybe- but it is changing the original sound of your music: in audiophile standards, this is not so good to say the least. Also, iTunes does not play flac files- so your iPhone is unable to support flac too.

Now I'm not saying that you are hearing wrong: it is just like the average joe thinks that Bose sounds great! Which is fine

And of course we know why: it is due to Bose's research in what sounds good to the average joe music lover: eq the he'll out of the music- more midbass, more midtrebble, etc.
Just my 2cents/
Ps.. I'm not an audiophile- just a sound enthusiast

 

[germanium]

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSMR /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yes. Even though I own more expensive phones, I'm still happy to walk around with these. OK these you should replace if possible. If you want stereo output get some active monitors. One simple check that the monitors conform to basic design principles is there should be power and line inputs on both speakers. E.g. the Audioengine A2s aren't proper active speakers but are just passive speakers with passive crossovers and an internal amp. Spending a little bit more will give a big jump in quality. KRK Rokit RP5 speakers are often recommended. I'd look for a soundcard that has at a minimum a headphone output with analog volume control (a volume knob in other words). Otherwise you are doing all your attenuation digitally and losing resolution. So the so-called "USB DAC" cable is out. The Behringer should be better than what you get from portable devices, and is probably the minimum I would recommend considering.

If you are running Windows Vista or Windows Seven just go into the soundcard properties into the advanced tab for the speakers & set the sample rate/resolution to 44.1KHz/24bit as at these settings you will never here any degradation of the sound no matter how you set the volume. Any truncation of the data would happen so far below the resolution of the opamps that it is impossible to hear. you would have to reduce the volume past -48db to get any truncation of the data if you are starting with 16 bit data boosted to 24 bit . This in & of itself is very soft & not any volume that you would actually use to listen to music with.

Analog volume controls have thier own problems such as channel mistracking & noise as the control gets older & the wiper/resistive medium become worn. Channel mistracking can become worse after considerable wear on the volume control. Also the smaller the volume control the worse the mistracking & the gross portion of the mistracking happens over a wider range of available volumes. Analog volumes of the resistive wiper type all have gross mistracking at low volumes but get better as volume increases.The tiny volume controls used in most outboard USB & firewire interfaces, that have these controls, have mistracking that can extend into the normal listening range especially after they become worn. The stepped attenuator type volume controls that use many precision resisors to achieve volume control are better in terms of channel balance but many have too few steps to achieve the perfect volume. They also frequently have popping noises when changing volumes if not properly done. These precision resistor type of volume controls are very expensive & will likely never be used in a soundcard internal or external.

This stuff does not happen in software volume controls. channel tracking remains perfect & it does not wear out like an analog one does.

The only advantage left really to analog volume controls is the fact that you can limit the volume for when the computer first boots up as sometimes for some reason the volume can get boosted to max & you don't want this hitting your speakers without some attenuation. Other than this I see no reason to use an analog volume control anymore.

Most of the music you listen to anymore was mixed & mastered on a computer using software volume controls though using floating point math to retain resolution of the signal in case they have to boost the signal back up after lowering it during subsequent mix down sessions as in that situation the truncation could possibly become audible when boosted back up. This would never be a problem in normal listening.

 

[striggy]

Just started a similar journey to yourself.

For something to plug your headphones into the Turtle Beach Audio Advantage Micro has a better rep. than the Behringer UCA202 at that price - not heard either myself.

The Headphonia USB DAC cable looks interesting and quite liked but it's difficult to find much information.

If you're US based the Nuforce uDAC looks like it might be the real deal at $99!

 

[killertofu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operandi /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a friend that has that Behringer and he thinks it sucks, he prefers the onboard sound actually. Also the Audigy 4 is a better source than the iPhone. The iPhone might have a bit more power than Audigy so maybe thats what you are hearing.

Good to know about the Behringer. I'm a bit surprised to hear that the Audigy 4 is better than the iPhone, but then again it could be my OS: Windows 7 x64. I downloaded and installed the corresponding drivers from creative but still have issues when trying to adjust its settings in control panel.

Quote:

Firstly, you may want to try looking at your control panel settings on your computer-->sound settings or in your sound card settings... and ensure you have it set on the highest bit rate 24 or 32bit @192khz or higher... Then play some flac files- lossless format on your computer. Then consider this: the iPhone does have eq'ing- so does iTunes: play mp3 from your iTunes and compare to: WMP - big difference. The iTunes may sound clearer but it is because it has a built into the program eq(similar to srs wow fx). Does it make it sound better??- maybe- but it is changing the original sound of your music: in audiophile standards, this is not so good to say the least. Also, iTunes does not play flac files- so your iPhone is unable to support flac too.

I have adjusted my sound card bit rate but didn't notice as much of a difference as when I did it on my previous PC build (Windows XP). The Sound card has the ability to adjust tone balance, and before adjustment, the default was something like -4db for both bass and treble. I tried to reduce the bass since the Logitech Z2300's are bass heavy and then the sound changed entirely, everything went flat. I couldn't recover the clarity but found that moving the tone sliders to 0db was as best as I could get it.

Are there any 3rd party drivers that work well with this card?

As for EQ, I have my iPhone on Loudness and defaults on iTunes. I've looked in iTunes but could never actually find any EQ options, just sliders for tone adjustment.

I was using the song "Crap Kraft Dinner" by Hot Chip as a sample. At 4:45-50 you can hear the synth and saxophone clearly on my iPhone but its nonexistant on my PC. It's the weirdest thing.

Audio is a completely new area for me; I knowledgeable in just about every other PC component but this confuses me. I'll check out these settings in detail when I get home from work and class.

 

[killertofu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by striggy /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you're US based the Nuforce uDAC looks like it might be the real deal at $99!

This seems like a good device- simple and straight to the point. The documentation leads me to believe it takes audio from my PC over USB (also powers over USB) and sends the converted analog signal over RCA, is this correct? Does the volume control the headphone out, RCA out, or both?

 

[tosehee]

Welcome to HF, and I can foresee your wallet being sorry

 

[CSMR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by germanium /img/forum/go_quote.gif you would have to reduce the volume past -48db to get any truncation of the data if you are starting with 16 bit data boosted to 24 bit . This in & of itself is very soft & not any volume that you would actually use to listen to music with.

That's true 48db is a lot to play with. I was more thinking about the actual effective resolution of the DAC which I'd guess is a few bits below 24bit, although that's a complete guess.
Quote:

Analog volume controls...The tiny volume controls used in most outboard USB & firewire interfaces, that have these controls, have mistracking that can extend into the normal listening range especially after they become worn...

Yes I don't know how these issues weigh up. In practice however, any sound card above a certain (low) level will have headphone out with an analog volume control. Maybe you're saying you should keep it at 100%, sounds surprising but you could be right.
(At the really really low end that's where you need an analog control the most as you can have an audible noise floor.)
Quote:

Most of the music you listen to anymore was mixed & mastered on a computer using software volume controls

Of course mixing in software does this but hardware mixers and preamps, i.e. what the mics were originally connected to, always have have analog controls don't they, presumably pretty accurate ones?

 

[AmanGeorge]

Quote:

Originally Posted by killertofu /img/forum/go_quote.gif This seems like a good device- simple and straight to the point. The documentation leads me to believe it takes audio from my PC over USB (also powers over USB) and sends the converted analog signal over RCA, is this correct? Does the volume control the headphone out, RCA out, or both?

Yep, the way you describe it working is right. The volume controls both the RCA out and the headphone out. I picked up one of these recently and it really is outstanding. I know it's slightly out of your budget, but I think it's a component that can continue to be a building-block of an even higher-end setup later on if you like, in addition to the fact that it's so versatile and transportable. Good luck!

 

[killertofu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AmanGeorge /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yep, the way you describe it working is right. The volume controls both the RCA out and the headphone out. I picked up one of these recently and it really is outstanding. I know it's slightly out of your budget, but I think it's a component that can continue to be a building-block of an even higher-end setup later on if you like, in addition to the fact that it's so versatile and transportable. Good luck!

Sweet! Yeah it's a little much, but if it's everything people have been saying about it then it's worth it. Final question you might know since you have it, have you had any audio lag issues since its receiving data over USB? I watch some videos and play games occasionally and couldn't find an answer anywhere online.

Thanks guys!