[TehCrimsonG]

Hello all, this is my first forum post. I have lurked on this forum for a couple years and have found great information and finally decided to make an account.
 
I have a question about my specific listening setup. I am currently listening with Sennheiser HD 650's and a Schiit Modi and Vali stack (both first generation) for my laptop. I recently moved my Marantz DV8400 SACD/DVD player upstairs to my desk to use with my Schiit Vali as well. Since my DV8400 lacks HDMI connectivity, it doesn't get much use in my home theater arrangement anymore. I figured it would make an excellent physical audio disc player. My question is whether or not I would benefit upgrading my first generation Schiit Modi DAC to either the Schiit Modi 2 or step up to the Bifrost to connect to my Marantz? Or is running my DV8400 right in to my existing Vali about as good as it gets? I have a stack of SACD and DVD-Audio discs that sound good right now.
 
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it!

 

[cel4145]

I figured it would make an excellent physical audio disc player. My question is whether of not I would benefit upgrading my first generation Schiit Modi DAC to either the Schiit Modi 2 or step up to the Bifrost to connect to my Marantz?

I would not expect to get significant gains going from the Modi to the Modi 2.

Some people would say that the DAC in your Marantz is likely to be good enough for producing an accurate reproduction of the sound, that it likely does not introduce distortion within the audible range of hearing. Difficult to know without measurements.

If you have a Modi, aren't you already using a computer to play audio files? Why use the Marantz at all?

 

[Music Alchemist]

Most people who have compared the Modi and Modi 2 said they didn't hear a difference between them at all. (This is not the case with the Magni and Magni 2/Uber.) The best course of action would be to have both DACs you want to compare, then do a controlled listening test to see if you hear a difference between them. Also compare with and without a DAC -- you may not even hear a difference between your dedicated DAC and using just your computer! If you can't afford to have both DACs to compare, then you really can't afford to be spending your hard-earned money on things that may not even improve the sound quality of your system.

 

[TehCrimsonG]

I would not expect to get significant gains going from the Modi to the Modi 2.

Some people would say that the DAC in your Marantz is likely to be good enough for producing an accurate reproduction of the sound, that it likely does not introduce distortion within the audible range of hearing. Difficult to know without measurements.

If you have a Modi, aren't you already using a computer to play audio files? Why use the Marantz at all?

I didn't think I could listen to my SACD and DVD-Audio discs through my laptop. I have a very small physical audio disc collection. Sadly, I am listening primarily to lower quality (256kbps) iTunes mp3 songs on my laptop (then through the Modi/Vali stack and out to the HD 650's). The use of the Marantz has been a noticeable improvement in sound quality, especially for the high resolution discs.
 

  Most people who have compared the Modi and Modi 2 said they didn't hear a difference between them at all. (This is not the case with the Magni and Magni 2/Uber.) The best course of action would be to have both DACs you want to compare, then do a controlled listening test to see if you hear a difference between them. Also compare with and without a DAC -- you may not even hear a difference between your dedicated DAC and using just your computer! If you can't afford to have both DACs to compare, then you really can't afford to be spending your hard-earned money on things that may not even improve the sound quality of your system.

Since my Modi only connects using USB, is there a way for me connect it to my Marantz? It seemed like the only way for me to have the connectivity I need to make use of the Modi and my Marantz was to upgrade to the new generation 2 with the extra inputs.

 

[Music Alchemist]

  I didn't think I could listen to my SACD and DVD-Audio discs through my laptop. I have a very small physical audio disc collection. Sadly, I am listening primarily to lower quality (256kbps) iTunes mp3 songs on my laptop (then through the Modi/Vali stack and out to the HD 650's). The use of the Marantz has been a noticeable improvement in sound quality, especially for the high resolution discs.
 
Since my Modi only connects using USB, is there a way for me connect it to my Marantz? It seemed like the only way for me to have the connectivity I need to make use of the Modi and my Marantz was to upgrade to the new generation 2 with the extra inputs.

 
256 kbps AAC (the iTunes Store does not sell MP3) is indistinguishable from lossless, though iTunes downloads are often a different master than, say, a CD or download from elsewhere. High-res is a gimmick. The only thing that matters is the music production process, like the recording, mix, master, etc. (Though surround sound DVD audio, etc. is legit.)
 
You could just connect your Marantz to your Vali directly. (I think.)

 

[TehCrimsonG]

   
256 kbps AAC (the iTunes Store does not sell MP3) is indistinguishable from lossless, though iTunes downloads are often a different master than, say, a CD or download from elsewhere. High-res is a gimmick. The only thing that matters is the music production process, like the recording, mix, master, etc. (Though surround sound DVD audio, etc. is legit.)
 
You could just connect your Marantz to your Vali directly. (I think.)

That is unfortunate to hear DVD-Audio and SACD discs are a gimmick. It must work, because I find their sound quality to be superior to my iTunes music. I currently have my Vali connected directly to my Marantz. What I wasn't sure about was if I would benefit from running a DAC between the Marantz and Vali as well. Since the connectivity is limited on my Modi, I wondered if getting a Modi 2 or Bifrost would make sense. To be honest, I have been pretty satisfied with the sound quality coming from the Marantz/Vali combo. I just wasn't sure if there was higher sound quality to achieve. Thanks for the information so far, I appreciate it!

 

[Music Alchemist]

  That is unfortunate to hear DVD-Audio and SACD discs are a gimmick. It must work, because I find their sound quality to be superior to my iTunes music. I currently have my Vali connected directly to my Marantz. What I wasn't sure about was if I would benefit from running a DAC between the Marantz and Vali as well. Since the connectivity is limited on my Modi, I wondered if getting a Modi 2 or Bifrost would make sense. To be honest, I have been pretty satisfied with the sound quality coming from the Marantz/Vali combo. I just wasn't sure if there was higher sound quality to achieve. Thanks for the information so far, I appreciate it!

 
It sounds better because it's a different master, not because it's a different format. (With the exception of surround sound mixes that are basically a different master anyway.)
 
For what it's worth, people are going crazy over the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, saying it sounds better than every other DAC they've heard regardless of price. So if that is true and you compare it to DACs that cost five figures, it's a bargain, but compared to DACs that cost a few hundred dollars or even less, value becomes even more subjective. My opinion is that there are many ways to increase the sound quality of your system -- at a price.
 
If you can afford to keep your Modi and buy a Modi 2 or Bifrost, the best thing you can do is the comparison I mentioned above.
 
Also:
 

Inputs: 
 
Modi 2: USB 2.0
Modi 2 Uber: USB 2.0, Toslink SPDIF, Coaxial SPDIF
Modi Optical: Toslink SPDIF

 
But by far the best way to increase sound quality is by upgrading your headphones.

 

[cel4145]

+1

Yeah. It's just the different master on the SACDs. They could choose to use the same master with CD, and you would not be able to tell the difference.

You could probably sell your Modi on Head-Fi. Then, if you are itching to upgrade something else with your audio setup, or the price of Bifrost is a bit of a burden, I'd say stick with the Modi 2.

 

[Beyakusenn]

+1
 
You are already getting good advice from the other members. To add to the previous statements: Lossy formats do have data loss that might be somewhat audible in a controlled environment. Most music is mastered poorly, and that is the main reason why the sound quality takes a step back.
 
I have measured the difference between lossless audio and 320 kbps MP3. With 'modern' music the lost data is more or less 200 times quieter than the original recording. With the very best recorded music I have, the lost data was still 8 times quieter than the original recording.
Doing blind tests with the very best recorded songs I have, I couldn't consistently tell the lossy and lossless files apart. I tried this test with a HiFiMan HE-560 and a Stax SR-4040 system.
 
A good indicator for the quality of the master you have is the dynamic range. In general you could say that the higher the dynamic range, the better your master is. A good database for finding the dynamic range of an album is this one: dr.loudness-war.info
 
There is also freeware you can download to measure the dynamic range of your own music.
 
Try listening to the same music on the different devices you have first. Try having someone else to help you so you can do a blind test. If you can tell the difference, stick with what you like best.
 
For an upgrade it might be better to get a new headphone. I guess that even then the difference won't be mind-blowing though. The HD650 is already a very good headphone and for a real upgrade you'd be looking at much higher prices.
You might also have fun trying new things. If you can listen to an electrostatic or a planar magnetic headphone, you will get to know different sound signatures and maybe one of those will suit you better than your current dynamic headphones.

 

[TehCrimsonG]

Wow, thanks for all the great info so far. I doubt I will be getting new headphones anytime soon since I am really happy with the HD 650's. I used to be a die-hard Grado fan, but thanks to my dad, he introduced me to Sennheiser and I've had the 650's ever since. My biggest complaint with Grado's is they aren't comfortable on my head and ears after 30-45 minutes. I can wear the HD 650's all day. Loved the way rock albums sounded with Grado's, but the 650's and a tube amp sound great too. I might wait a while longer before getting a Bifrost.

 

[Music Alchemist]

Wow, thanks for all the great info so far. I doubt I will be getting new headphones anytime soon since I am really happy with the HD 650's. I used to be a die-hard Grado fan, but thanks to my dad, he introduced me to Sennheiser and I've had the 650's ever since. My biggest complaint with Grado's is they aren't comfortable on my head and ears after 30-45 minutes. I can wear the HD 650's all day. Loved the way rock albums sounded with Grado's, but the 650's and a tube amp sound great too. I might wait a while longer before getting a Bifrost.

 
Ah, okay. If you're happy with your current headphones, upgrading the rest of your system makes more sense. I liked the HD 650, but since I want the most accurate headphone possible, I didn't mind letting it go.

 

[cel4145]

Ah, okay. If you're happy with your current headphones . . .

Must have been hard for you to say that since you go through headphones like some women go through shoes

 

[TehCrimsonG]

   
Ah, okay. If you're happy with your current headphones, upgrading the rest of your system makes more sense. I liked the HD 650, but since I want the most accurate headphone possible, I didn't mind letting it go.

I might go ahead and order a Modi 2 Uber to play around with since the extra connectivity would be nice. Now I wish I had kept the original packaging my Modi came in if I end up selling it, oh well.