New subwoofer: asking for tips for configuration

[Grendizer]

I recently bought a subwoofer to complement my pair of small studio monitors. I'm getting mad trying to make the music sound clean and balanced with this thing. Maybe I didn't need a subwoofer at all but it's here to stay now.
I've read some guides but most ask for a tool I don't have, a SPL meter. I've also downloaded some free test cd's but maybe I need the SPL meter to use them properly.

These are the monitors: ESI - Product Archive and this is the subwoofer: ESI - SW10K eXperience

As the monitors have a fequency range from 60 to 20K hz I'm trying to set both high and low crossovers at the subw. at 60hz. I'm getting the best subjective results with this settings. The subwoofer has another pot for phase control that goes from 0 to 180. I'me leaving this a bit over 0 as the changes I notice changing this setting are very subtle. I have to be very close to the sub to change it so it sounds a bit the same at 0 or 180. I've readthat this compensates the placement of the sub. I don't have many choices and the sub has to be near the monitors under the left or the right one.

I'm using a pasive attenuator to control the volume between the source (Dacmagic) and the subwoofer and the ,monitors. I think the attenuator may be giving me trouble, altering the balance between monitors and subwoofer. Should I leave a fix volume for the sub and use the attenuator after it, only for monitors?

So , summing up, settings now are: sub crossover (low) : 65-70 , monitors crossver (high): 65-70, phase: a bit over 0. The volume control in the sub is set very low and it's low too in the monitor's individual controls.

Am I doing right setting the same value for both crossovers?

I didn't know it was going to be such a headache to configure a subwoofer.

Also, should I trust the monitor's lowest frequency response? If the specs say 60 maybe I should use 70 of real lower frequency response?

 

[RicHSAD]

In general, you want the crossover to be at least 10hz above the minimum your main speakers can handle. The idea is to get a nice blend between your main speakers and the sub so that you cannot tell where the subwoofer is located. 80hz is often recommended as the crossover point, but I personally can quite easily tell where the sound is coming from with the crossover set to that frequency. My main speakers go down to 43hz so I was able to set the crossover to 60hz, which got me a nice blend between the speakers and the sub. I really can't tell where my sub is located right now, despite it being completely on my left and at a different angle than my main speakers.

In your case, I'd try setting the crossover to 70hz or 75hz and see how it sounds. If you go past 80hz it might become very easy to tell where the sub is located, especially since it is close to your listening position. Also, whatever volume control you are using needs to control both sub and monitors at the same time. Try not to set the volume on the sub itself too high. If the sub's volume is too high, it will overpower your monitors and it might again become easy to tell where it is located. You can also try leaving your monitors full range to see if it blends in better with the sub. As for the phase, 0 or close to it is probably fine given your current setup. If you really want to mess with it, play a sine wave at your crossover point and set the phase where the bass sounds the loudest. But again I don't think it is needed given where your speakers are currently positioned.

 

[warpdriver]

It *is* a headache to calibrate a subwoofer. If you have some equipment, it's a LOT easier. If you really want to get serious, you should invest in a sound meter, maybe connect it to a laptop so you can run REW software and you can see the real effect of the knobs (both phase and crossover).

I would advise you ignore the markings on the subwoofer knobs, they are usually pretty meaningless because they are very inaccurately marked. For example, for a reputable sub such as the Rel T1:

"The T1's crossover dial is marked from 30 to 120 Hz, but its true turnover frequencies only run from 58 to 102 Hz, and there's up to 14 dB of level/crossover interaction. For example, with the crossover set to 30 Hz, the sub's turnover frequency is 58 Hz and there's a 14 dB reduction in output level. When the crossover control is moved up to noon (middle of the dial), the true turnover frequency is also 58 Hz but there's only a 7 dB cut in level"

This is pretty typical of subwoofer knobs.

For Phase, try this
>>>>>>>>>>
Robert Harley -- Sat, 03/25/2006 - 11:39
There's a sure-fire technique for getting a subwoofer in phase with the main speakers. First, reverse the red and black speaker leads going to your left and right speakers. Play a test tone at the crossover frequency (you can find tones on most test CDs) and have someone sit while you adjust the phase control. Turn the phase control until the person in the seat hears the least amount of bass. Return the speaker leads to their correct polarity and the sub is perfectly dialed-in. By reversing the red and black leads on your speaker, you are putting them out of phase with the sub. When you hear the least bass, the main speakers and the sub are maximally out of phase. When you return the speaker leads to their correct position, the sub and main speakers are maximally in-phase. It is much easier to dial-in a maximum null than a maximum peak.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

You can download tones here

http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm

 

[ivant]

Without knowing the exact frequency response of your main speakers, the general recommendation is to set the crossover 1 octave higher than your speaker's -3db point. The idea is to have the crossover slope reside on a flat part of your frequency response. In your case, thats 120hz. 120hz, though is starting to get directional. Try it, and see if you can hear the difference. If you can locate the subwoofer, lower the crossover another 20hz and try again. Minimum I would go is 80hz on your speakers.

 

[iriverdude]

Subwoofer integrated in a HT is dead easy but I've always had problems with full-range signal to sub using subs own crossover. Probably need to measure frequency response with SMS-1 and see how high sub is and how low your main speakers go, due to room gain. I'm having problems integrating a SVS SB12+ but had problems with Rel Storm as well.

 

[Grendizer]

After reading your answers looks like I will need the SPL meter. Adding the sub I've lost a lot of quality and definition and I want to get it back.
I don't have many offers of SPL meters where I live so until I get it I have to set levels with test tracks like the ones warpdriver suggested.

I've done a simple test and looks like my setup with the sub is a disaster. I've run the test from 40 to 200 hz with the monitors off, only the subwoofer, and even with the sub crossover set at minimum I hear the 200hz clearly. I'm having bad luck with everything I buy lately. Can the crossover filter be defective? Besides, I'm getting huge differences in volume perceived from 40 to 130hz, with 65 to 80hz being too loud and 120 to 135 almost silent.

About the 2 crossovers, do you think I'm doing right setting both at the same level?

 

[RicHSAD]

Well the crossover isn't a hard cut off, but rather a gradual slope, so the sub will still produce sound above whatever you set it too. It seems normal to me that the sub would be the loudest at 80hz and below as this is where the sub is supposed to playing. If you have your crossover at 80hz, then obviously the sub should be pretty quiet at 120hz and up. My guess is that you need to reduce the volume of the sub. It is probably too loud and overpowering your mains. It could be in a bad spot too, so I would try moving it around, even if just to test.

 

[iriverdude]

Quote:

Besides, I'm getting huge differences in volume perceived from 40 to 130hz, with 65 to 80hz being too loud and 120 to 135 almost silent.

That's quite common, mine does that when I run the sweep. I'd look into a subwoofer PEQ. SVS EQ1 for ease of use and best auto setup around, or SMS-1 if you like to fiddle and adjust manually.

 

[Grendizer]

It was a problem with the volume. I had the monitors at minimum for better control with the knob. I had the sub at minimum volume too but plays way louder than the monitors.
Also I was being too shy with the crossover knobs. I was making all the tests with full output to the monitors.

It's starting to sound like it should. But now I cant move the volume too much, nothing actually. I'm a bit worried about that. But it sounds way better than before.

About the equalizers, that things cost the same as my headphones, speakers and sub. Can I do something similar with REW and a SPL meter?

 

[iriverdude]

I know REW can plot a accurate graph, but you need to calibrate soundcard and meter, and if you have a cheapo meter I don't know how it can calculate what's out. If something is out, you're going to correct response when the system has been measured inaccuratly. I'd look into a quality calibrated microhone desinged for subwoofer calibration. Not sure if REW it does real time correction on music. If you have multiple sources they'll all need to be connected to the computer for the realtime PEQ to be applied.

You could look into the Behringer feedback destroyer but it's quite complex, not like the SVS EQ or indeed the SMS-1.

What do you mean you can't move the volume much?

 

[Grendizer]

The knob on the passive attenuator. Monitors have individual volume knobs. I keep those knobs down and at a fixed level. I use a passive attenuator so I can control both speakers at the same time and have it accesible. If the speakers individual volume is high(not so high really, a bit over 50%) then volume in the attenuator has to be very low (really low, 10%).
Using DacMagic as source.

I don't like very loud music.

 

[DeusEx]

get a meter

 

[Grendizer]

Will this SPL meter get the job done? Página de fabricante - Thomann Cyberstore Español

 

[Grendizer]

I finally got the meter. Setting levels was very easy. But crossover is a whole different story. There's a lot of variation of the frequency response from 30 to 300 hz. More than 10db sometimes. I don't know if the problem is the crossover or the room. Probably both but I'm never sure if I'm adjusting the crossover or trying to remove rattles and thumps that are more the room's fault.

I thought part of the problem was the sub crossover so I bought something like this this: BEHRINGER: CX2310

It's cheap and IMO an improvement over the sub's crossover. And although I'm way more satisfied with the results I keep reaching desperation when testing sine tones 30 to 300. Everything sounds wrong.

Haven't tried REW yet because the line in in my soundcard is shared with the optical spdif out that goes to the DAC. I think I'll just use the soundcard lineout. Being the same speakers and sub results can't differ much.