[NateCordova]

Quote:

Just realized you might be thinking I was talking about that black box that slots in a computer case, which is definitely not the case (no pun intended).
 
NateCordova, what obobskivich is saying is that an average consumer model such as the X-Fi Titanium wouldn't be an upgrade from your Audigy 2 Platinum eX. The flagship models from both current and previous generation can be worthy upgrades, but many make the mistake of getting entry products that, while similar in name, have nothing in common when it comes to actual I/O quality.
 
Last time I checked, the E-MU 0404 was under $150, but don't quote me on that.

I see, so the quality of the input and output is worse...why then? why did they make newer products at the same price (am i right?) and worse?

In this case ,would a m-audio fast track have as good output quality as my creative audigy 2?
 


Quote:

Wouldn't bother with a shop - most PC repair places will just junk it for you, shops that can actually do the work will probably get you coming, going, and every which way inbetween. We're talking hours of work there. 
 
Regarding newer cards: no, technology has not gone backwards. It's just that multimedia cards (like what you've got), with a whole mess of inputs and outputs, are no longer very popular. So they haven't been made in a while. The trend now is "PC audiophile" and "home theater" - basically output only devices with maybe one or two inputs. You either have to buy used hardware (like a new PCI card or an entire setup, like the X-Fi Elite Pro (which is really a great option if you can find one!)), or get something from the semi-pro/pro audio world (like the E-MU; bollocks to the M-Audio). 
 
That external unit probably cannot be used with newer cards, at least not anything you can buy brand new today. It should work with the Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro (and only that board), and the Audigy 4 Platinum Pro (and only that board), and perhaps the X-Fi Elite Pro (but this is where I'm unsure). If you can't find either a complete setup (like a ZS Plat Pro, 4 Pro, etc), or a replacement eX Plat, I'd just get something like the E-MU and call it a day. No point hassling beyond that. 
 
 

I see.. so anything Audigy 2 and Audigy 4 PRO , with ad links on the pci cards, can work with this external unit? 'cuz i seen a audigy 2 with no ad-link conection, which leads me to think its not to be used with a external unit.
 
I cant spend 150$, thats too much, the absolute max i would do is 80 euros, thats the price of a M-Audio at Thomann (fits well, have some orders from there so i wouldn't pay shipping if i were to order it now)
 
Would another replacement pci sound card have a output with more quality? Audigy 4 Pro is not cheap at all, from what i've seen on used articles here in Portugal (yes i live in Portugal, i just have this username because i know it's never taken on websites haha) 

just in case, would this be compatible? http://albergariaavelha.olx.pt/sound-blaster-audigy2-zs-iid-133277603

cuz it seems a pretty cheap choice
 

 
 

 

[obobskivich]

No. The quality has not gone down. Just the quantity of inputs and outputs. People aren't buying soundcards to play videogames, hook up to their home theater, and do home production all at once anymore. They want more specialized hardware. 
 
The M-Audio is a bad option, as Roller pointed out, and it's my bad for suggesting it - I assumed M-Audio had sorted their driver nightmare since 2006. And yes, there are Audigy cards that lack AD_Link and cannot work with your box. There are a total of three cards in the entire world that your box can plug into:
- Audigy 2 Platinum eX
- Audigy 2 Platinum Pro
- Audigy 4 Platinum Pro
 
 
Quote:

I see, so the quality of the input and output is worse...why then? why did they make newer products at the same price (am i right?) and worse?

In this case ,would a m-audio fast track have as good output quality as my creative audigy 2?
 

I see.. so anything Audigy 2 and Audigy 4 PRO , with ad links on the pci cards, can work with this external unit? 'cuz i seen a audigy 2 with no ad-link conection, which leads me to think its not to be used with a external unit.
 
I cant spend 150$, thats too much, the absolute max i would do is 80 euros, thats the price of a M-Audio at Thomann (fits well, have some orders from there so i wouldn't pay shipping if i were to order it now)
 
Would another replacement pci sound card have a output with more quality? Audigy 4 Pro is not cheap at all, from what i've seen on used articles here in Portugal (yes i live in Portugal, i just have this username because i know it's never taken on websites haha) 

just in case, would this be compatible? http://albergariaavelha.olx.pt/sound-blaster-audigy2-zs-iid-133277603

cuz it seems a pretty cheap choice
 

 

 

 

[NateCordova]

 
Quote:

No. The quality has not gone down. Just the quantity of inputs and outputs. People aren't buying soundcards to play videogames, hook up to their home theater, and do home production all at once anymore. They want more specialized hardware. 
 
The M-Audio is a bad option, as Roller pointed out, and it's my bad for suggesting it - I assumed M-Audio had sorted their driver nightmare since 2006. And yes, there are Audigy cards that lack AD_Link and cannot work with your box. There are a total of three cards in the entire world that your box can plug into:
- Audigy 2 Platinum eX
- Audigy 2 Platinum Pro
- Audigy 4 Platinum Pro
 

Thanks Then i'll keep looking for these cards on the used market!

If it were for the newer stuff, imagined i just wanted a line in , line out, same quality (not quantity cuz i dont need it) of input and output, on a box with knobs for input level and output level. What would be the cheaper and best option  ,including the external unit?

What's the problem with M-audio drivers, just curious? Do they just sound worse or they aren't compatible with many OS? i got Windows XP SP2 32 bit just in case.

If they all sound the same on the output the M-audio and the New Cards, and M-audio is compatible with my pc, i'd probably get that because it looks damn freaking sweet, i dunno, i like the simplicity and it beeing totally recording oriented, probably would detect better the possible clipping on guitar if there is any

 

[obobskivich]

M-Audio has had latency and stability issues since Vista came out, but with XP it might just work fine (I know the Delta boards will work no problem with XP). If you're curious about that, find a review or something. With XP I'm a lot less leery of suggesting the M-Audio hardware though. Roller, thoughts?
 
Anyways, a simple one-box solution for you would be the E-MU. Just grab that. It'll replace the Audigy entirely, run your headphones, run your guitar, and so on. 
 
 

 

[NateCordova]

Quote:

M-Audio has had latency and stability issues since Vista came out, but with XP it might just work fine (I know the Delta boards will work no problem with XP). If you're curious about that, find a review or something. With XP I'm a lot less leery of suggesting the M-Audio hardware though. Roller, thoughts?
 
Anyways, a simple one-box solution for you would be the E-MU. Just grab that. It'll replace the Audigy entirely, run your headphones, run your guitar, and so on. 
 
 

http://www.thomann.de/pt/emu_0404_pci_express.htm

something like this?

The M-audio has latency issues !? That is ironic no? The EMU looks great, just needs a knob for volume lol, isnt there a solution to make a psyhical output volume knob somehow, cuz believe it, i fell in love with this in the external unit haha xD
 

 

[obobskivich]

It's the drivers, not the hardware, with the M-Audio. I don't know what the hang-up has been, but my guess would be the fairly old VIA hardware they tend to use. Basically, and this is based on the Delta series boards, in Vista and 7 there are issues running ASIO, and with having the thing run stable. They claim it's been fixed for a while now, but it took like two years for them to get out of beta builds. 
 
The 0404 PCIe will work if your computer has a PCIe slot, and if you had a preamp. The 0404 USB and 0202/Tracker include preamps. That's why I suggested them. 
 
If this place (Thomann) has a decent return policy, give the M-Audio a try (they don't seem to stock the 0404 USB); if it runs stable, that's great, if it gives you trouble, send it back. 
Quote:

http://www.thomann.de/pt/emu_0404_pci_express.htm

something like this?

The M-audio has latency issues !? That is ironic no? The EMU looks great, just needs a knob for volume lol, isnt there a solution to make a psyhical output volume knob somehow, cuz believe it, i fell in love with this in the external unit haha xD
 

 

 

[Roller]

Sorry guys, was afk for a bit.
 
Like oboskivich said, users are steering away from dedicated soundcards, and that reflects on the market, in a negative way. The (consumer) soundcard used to be much better, which in turn ended up giving the buyer a lot of power and flexibility regarding hardware usage scenarios.
 
However, I do have to mention that the latest Creative endeavour in consumer audio is a terrible overpriced mess, namely the Recon3D nonsense. Those "cards" are nothing more than onboard audio chips stuck in a dedicated PCIe card and sold at a ridiculously high price point. This price point could be justified if there were matching parts' quality, a good DSP implementation and even new/improved features, but there is none of that to be seen, quite the opposite. The quality Creative consumer audio hardware to be considered stops at the X-Fi Titanium HD.
 
About M-Audio drivers, Vista/7 versions are buggy, plain and simple. Failing to handle reasonable buffer lengths and giving USB I/O errors isn't acceptable for the market they're targeting their products at. Low latencies are essential, as well as rock solid systems that aren't hampered by drivers that randomly decide to hang processes that slow whole systems. On the other hand, XP drivers are much more reliable since it's basically where M-Audio has put all their development efforts, and can be a valid option precisely because of that.
In all honesty, having stable and high performing drivers on Vista/7 is far more useful since when looking at the big picture, the new kernel proves to be much more usable for audio usage, contrary to the auto degrading system that is XP.
 
It would be better to go with the PCIe version of the 0404, mainly to avoid additional delays that exist on USB, although the USB 0404 does have a relatively good implementation.
 
EDIT: NateCordova, do you find Thomann to be reliable? I'm asking about shipping costs, sales support and potential product returns.

 

[NateCordova]

Hey, i will probably be back later because i need to sleep for reharsal in a few hours LOL! its actually 9 am here.

I never had anything from Thomann, however, they do specify they have a 30 day return policy and you can actually return the products even if you don't have a reason to, if you just...well...don't like them. a lot of people buy from there because it's dirt cheap and it has everything a musician needs. Also, they apear to have really good reviews in costumer service. Plus, they respond to e-mails really fast, i know that for a fact. Hell, i'm going to buy guitar picks for like 27 cents each, when i pay about 80 cents on phisical stores. The tuners for guitar and bass are like 5 euros, where in a physical shop would be about 14 euros. They actually have a decently built (18mm plywood like marshall cabs) Speaker Cabinet for guitar with 4 top Speakers , used by the most professional players in metal and rock, thats CHEAPER THAN THE 4 SPEAKERS ALONE, which is rather sick imo.

My band is going to order a lot of things from them so i might take the chance to order one too. 

The EMU usb is like 150 in other places here, or more expensive :\

I would just need an option to control the volume of the output physically, isnt there something i can do, some button i can buy, midi, i dunno?

Quote:

Sorry guys, was afk for a bit.
 
Like oboskivich said, users are steering away from dedicated soundcards, and that reflects on the market, in a negative way. The (consumer) soundcard used to be much better, which in turn ended up giving the buyer a lot of power and flexibility regarding hardware usage scenarios.
 
However, I do have to mention that the latest Creative endeavour in consumer audio is a terrible overpriced mess, namely the Recon3D nonsense. Those "cards" are nothing more than onboard audio chips stuck in a dedicated PCIe card and sold at a ridiculously high price point. This price point could be justified if there were matching parts' quality, a good DSP implementation and even new/improved features, but there is none of that to be seen, quite the opposite. The quality Creative consumer audio hardware to be considered stops at the X-Fi Titanium HD.
 
About M-Audio drivers, Vista/7 versions are buggy, plain and simple. Failing to handle reasonable buffer lengths and giving USB I/O errors isn't acceptable for the market they're targeting their products at. Low latencies are essential, as well as rock solid systems that aren't hampered by drivers that randomly decide to hang processes that slow whole systems. On the other hand, XP drivers are much more reliable since it's basically where M-Audio has put all their development efforts, and can be a valid option precisely because of that.
In all honesty, having stable and high performing drivers on Vista/7 is far more useful since when looking at the big picture, the new kernel proves to be much more usable for audio usage, contrary to the auto degrading system that is XP.
 
It would be better to go with the PCIe version of the 0404, mainly to avoid additional delays that exist on USB, although the USB 0404 does have a relatively good implementation.
 
EDIT: NateCordova, do you find Thomann to be reliable? I'm asking about shipping costs, sales support and potential product returns.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Thanks! thats what'll i'll probably do! They do have it. Plus, i need to punish who did this to my soundcard...maybe i'll give some of my own money for it, but hell, i sure am mad, cuz i just bought All Splinted Memories cd today and wanted to hear it in maximum quality, and i got home to find out my card has been raped...oh life

ps: what the... M-audio is actually USB 1.1?  what? is it true ? i read it here http://forum.recordingreview.com/f66/m-audio-fast-track-mkii-vs-tascam-us-122-mkii-32947/
Quote

It's the drivers, not the hardware, with the M-Audio. I don't know what the hang-up has been, but my guess would be the fairly old VIA hardware they tend to use. Basically, and this is based on the Delta series boards, in Vista and 7 there are issues running ASIO, and with having the thing run stable. They claim it's been fixed for a while now, but it took like two years for them to get out of beta builds. 
 
The 0404 PCIe will work if your computer has a PCIe slot, and if you had a preamp. The 0404 USB and 0202/Tracker include preamps. That's why I suggested them. 
 
If this place (Thomann) has a decent return policy, give the M-Audio a try (they don't seem to stock the 0404 USB); if it runs stable, that's great, if it gives you trouble, send it back. 


 

 

 

[Roller]

It is USB 1.1 indeed. That limits output format availability and might be prone to latency issues as well if you push too much the interface, as USB 1.1 bandwidth is much lower than USB 2.0.
 
Going with the E-MU 0404 would be a safer choice, maybe even a 0204. Actually, going with a shielded PCIe solution would be even better, again because of the whole skipping inherent bus interface issues.

 

[obobskivich]

I agree with this. However, the 0404 PCIe (afaik) lacks the preamp and amp setup of the internal card, and would need additional hardware. You also need to ensure you have a PCIe slot (I'm only saying this because if the system is contemporary to the Audigy 2 Platinum eX, it probably lacks PCIe). The M-Audio Delta 1010LT would be a great internal option (has preamps), again, if you're using WinXP. 
 
Volume control is another story. What are you driving on the output? Just the headphones? You can use the system volume slider (in Windows) to adjust this, and if that bugs you, maybe pick up a keyboard with "Volume Up/Down" buttons while you're shopping (they're fairly common anymore). 
 
 
Quote:

It is USB 1.1 indeed. That limits output format availability and might be prone to latency issues as well if you push too much the interface, as USB 1.1 bandwidth is much lower than USB 2.0.
 
Going with the E-MU 0404 would be a safer choice, maybe even a 0204. Actually, going with a shielded PCIe solution would be even better, again because of the whole skipping inherent bus interface issues.

 

 

[NateCordova]

Quote:

I agree with this. However, the 0404 PCIe (afaik) lacks the preamp and amp setup of the internal card, and would need additional hardware. You also need to ensure you have a PCIe slot (I'm only saying this because if the system is contemporary to the Audigy 2 Platinum eX, it probably lacks PCIe). The M-Audio Delta 1010LT would be a great internal option (has preamps), again, if you're using WinXP. 
 
Volume control is another story. What are you driving on the output? Just the headphones? You can use the system volume slider (in Windows) to adjust this, and if that bugs you, maybe pick up a keyboard with "Volume Up/Down" buttons while you're shopping (they're fairly common anymore). 
 
 


 

That's the thing, i love my 11 year old Genius Keyboard, seems like i can't type on any other haha. When i had a new one i just gave it away, hated it, i love this one ,doens't matter how dirty it is Same as my mouse, can't get used to other mouses, always keep coming back to this.

My motherboard isn't from the stone age either i think, its a Asus P5Q Pro. I guess it was a pretty good motherboard for the price back then. Im sure i have pci slots for it, i had 2 left, one in which was installed the creative soundcard and one empty.

Yeah i'm driving it with headphones (Panasonic H-RTX7 with 2 holes tapped on the drivers - awesome ) and it kind of pisses me off having to constantly change it on windows. Maybe something to attach to headphones, i dunno, some adaptor or something? Cuz i constantly change the volume of the game, the volume of my software on guitar, the volume during videos on youtube etc.
 

 

[obobskivich]

Okay, you can use the PCIe card.
 
Koss and a few others sell an in-line attenuator, but it may not be entirely suitable for what you want. Depends on how robust the output side of the 0404 is relative to the headphones you've got. Could try it out though, it's only a few bucks. Otherwise, get outboard hardware with all the controls built-in (remember that you won't have a level control or preamp for the guitar with the 0404 - you cannot plug the guitar into the 0404 PCIe). 
 
 
 
 

 

[NateCordova]

Quote:

Okay, you can use the PCIe card.
 
Koss and a few others sell an in-line attenuator, but it may not be entirely suitable for what you want. Depends on how robust the output side of the 0404 is relative to the headphones you've got. Could try it out though, it's only a few bucks. Otherwise, get outboard hardware with all the controls built-in (remember that you won't have a level control or preamp for the guitar with the 0404 - you cannot plug the guitar into the 0404 PCIe). 
 
 
 
 

Why does the guitar need a pre amp ? to sort out harsh frequencies? to increase the input ? (guitar amplifiers have a pre-amp section to shape the sound, and sometimes to add distortion, that lovely rock sound).

So i guess i really do need a external unit right, if i want a pre-amp. What would the pre-amp add?

 

 

[obobskivich]

Guitar needs gain and attenuation. The eX was providing all of that. The outboard USB units will sort that. Alternately, get a free-standing preamp, and a free-standing headphone amp or in-line attenuator, and the 0404 PCIe. 
 
 
 

 

[NateCordova]

btw, are you sure the MKII is usb 1.1? 

Because its a newer model, the MKI is surely 1.1, but is the MKII 1.1 as well?

Here, some shops sell it as beeing usb 2.0 http://www.zzounds.com/item--MDOFSTRKMK2

http://www.gigasonic.com/M-Audio-Fast-Track-MKII.html

 
Dunno if they just copy pasted it?