[tomb]

Quote:

Beezar is unlikely to offer a kit, because of the casework. The pre-machined MiniMax case is what makes it such a great kit.

Well ... since you mentioned it, I'm wondering if developing a similar case for the MOSFET-MAX would be worthwhile, or whether it would kill the sales of the MiniMAX.  I keep thinking that there's room for both - MiniMAX for all-around and high-impedance and then MiniMAX as a Grado/K701 killer, but then I don't know for sure.  Any opinions?

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Well ... since you mentioned it, I'm wondering if developing a similar case for the MOSFET-MAX would be worthwhile, or whether it would kill the sales of the MiniMAX.  I keep thinking that there's room for both - MiniMAX for all-around and high-impedance and then MiniMAX as a Grado/K701 killer, but then I don't know for sure.  Any opinions?

I personally think it would split the MiniMax sales. And while there are differences between the two versions, they are mostly philosophical - as far as I'm concerned, both amps are great for both purposes.

 

[jdkJake]

Quote:

Well ... since you mentioned it, I'm wondering if developing a similar case for the MOSFET-MAX would be worthwhile, or whether it would kill the sales of the MiniMAX.  I keep thinking that there's room for both - MiniMAX for all-around and high-impedance and then MiniMAX as a Grado/K701 killer, but then I don't know for sure.  Any opinions?

Interesting concept. The miniMAX case is quite nice. Wouldn't it kind of limit the build options? How would you handle the DAC option? Not sure everyone would be keen to add a DAC. But then, you never know, that might be the compelling feature that takes it over the top.
 
No doubt it would takes sales from the miniMAX. Which would be undeserved as it is a FINE amp!

 

[QRomo]

Quote:

Well ... since you mentioned it, I'm wondering if developing a similar case for the MOSFET-MAX would be worthwhile, or whether it would kill the sales of the MiniMAX.  I keep thinking that there's room for both - MiniMAX for all-around and high-impedance and then MiniMAX as a Grado/K701 killer, but then I don't know for sure.  Any opinions?

Good question! If a MOSFET-MAX kit were to become available, I think I'd eventually buy it just to compare with my MiniMAX. It would also be handy to have the GrubDAC integrated into the custom case. I know that would be a selling point for a lot of people.
 
I'm not sure which I would have opted for if both kits were available when I got my MiniMAX. I'd have read up a lot more on the MOSFET-MAX to see which would suit my listening preferences better. I could see how the combo amp/DAC possibility of the MOSFET-MAX could make it the more popular of the two, though.

 

[H0bbes]

Quote:

Beezar is unlikely to offer a kit, because of the casework. The pre-machined MiniMax case is what makes it such a great kit.

I agree, that is why I hope that Beezar could offer the MOSFET MAX kit and if dimensions of both PCBs arent too far apart, Beezar could unify one case for both built since 80-90% of the parts in the BOM list are similiar.
In doing so, Beezar could offer amps for both low impedance and high impedance crowd while keeping the cost of stocking equivalent to or slightly higher than stocking for one model; hopefully in the long run it could hit a better volume thus achieving a better profit margin through MOQs/bulk purchase. Just a thought tho.
 
Before deciding on the Minimax kit I was actually considering the M3 with Sigma11 PSU and I've actually emailed amb to enquire about payment/parts, however it turns out that i do not have time to work on a M3 and Sigma11 due to certain last minute changes in commitments (both work and family)
Not to mention the time/cost needed for extra tools for the case work, the cost of shipping/lead time from 3-4 different vendors so in the end I settled for a kit like the Minimax from a single vendor thus saving time and money
 


 
Quote:

I have limited experience with all-tube-based headphone amps, so, I really cannot comment how the MOSFETs compare. I have read that is the case, but, do not have anything to back it up. The only all-tube designs I have heard were speaker amps. Certainly give it some more time. Especially the tubes. I have noticed that can take about a week or so to properly "wake up" after sleeping for so long on a shelf somewhere.
 
I would be surprised if Beezar makes a MOSFET kit as it is intended to be an experimenters platform, but, you never know. Certainly it is not hard to obtain the parts as the BOM is pretty complete. If you can build the amp, the BOM should not present an issue. It is more juggling out of stock parts and/or parts only available from a few vendors. Just be sure to check it multiple times before pressing purchase. It can really save on extra shipping that way. Shipping is the penalty you pay for mistakes/ommisions, which, I have paid on multiple occasions. 
 
The casework required is minimal, all you need is a drill and some rubber cement. The board is designed to fit in a standard case, you just need vent holes and jack holes. The MAX site goes into details on how it can be accomplished with a handheld drill. I even drilled the tube holes, but, I do have a drill press, vice and clamps available. Most of the tools can be rented for an afternoon if you really do not have them (including punch kits). The rubber cement is for the template method, which, works really quite well.
 
   http://www.diyforums.org/MAX/MAXcasework.php
 

 

 
Thanks for your effort tho
Yeah, guess i should give those tubes some time before forming an impression.
 
Shipping is a problem for me, as I do not reside in the states; if i were to purchase parts from say 4 different vendors, the shipping cost alone will kill me and any cost benefit associated with DIY.
 
Unfortunately the country that i resides in does not have equipment rentals, i will have to borrow from friends or buy them outright and that too isnt in favor of DIY.
However i could borrow a drill

  and i do have some small vices/clamps so i might attempt a MOSFET Max built when time permits.(thanks for the link)
 

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

I agree, that is why I hope that Beezar could offer the MOSFET MAX kit and if dimensions of both PCBs arent too far apart, Beezar could unify one case for both built since 80-90% of the parts in the BOM list are similiar.
 

Why would you want one case size? A key benefit of the MiniMax is so that it fits in as small a space as technically possible. That small size is too small for the higher heat output of the MOSFETs.
 
Look, I know everyone loves kits for everything, but there really is a point where DIY becomes getting someone else to do it for you. The MiniMax kit is a brilliant kit that will happily power anything except some very difficult orthos and, obviously, Stax. If you want more from a DIY product, then DIY.

 

[H0bbes]

Quote:

Why would you want one case size? A key benefit of the MiniMax is so that it fits in as small a space as technically possible. That small size is too small for the higher heat output of the MOSFETs.
 
Look, I know everyone loves kits for everything, but there really is a point where DIY becomes getting someone else to do it for you. The MiniMax kit is a brilliant kit that will happily power anything except some very difficult orthos and, obviously, Stax. If you want more from a DIY product, then DIY.

You are right in saying it defeats the purpose of the minimax to be space efficient, but i was trying to give a suggestion/seeing things in another perspective that IF you have all the materials to built 2 models and it cost you as much or a little bit extra to stock them why not offer 2 models.
 
That suggestion was made in good faith and seeing that we do not have much online businesses catering for audio DIY like beezar.com, I would hope for it to be profitable and sustainable to continue to offer something for the DIY crowd.
Perhaps i have misinterpreted your post but you seems to be very agitated with the suggestion. Also it doesnt mean that my idea reflects what everyone thinks, be all end all argument or it goes down well with tomb, at the end of the day its just an idea that came across me and my appologies if my idea agitates you.
 
Now having said that, the DIY part, each and every one of us have a different definition of DIY; its a very ambiguous term. Perhaps you may think that by buying a kit and assembling it does not constitute as DIY and some one across the globe some where else thinks that by buying a drill to do up your casework doesnt constitute as DIY either because if you need to buy/borrow a drill you might as well have some one do it for you. See each one of us have got a very different definition of DIY and im not going to argue with you where that cut off point is.
 
Never in my previous posts that I did implied or directly expressed that the Minimax kit is not a solid product or flawed; its a great product. But i was thinking now that i have attempted the minimax, and i'm itching/planning for a second project,and i really like tomb's service i was hoping he has another kit/product to offer as im not confident yet with caseworks to warrant an investment in  casework tools. That was when the idea came across me that perhaps someone somewhere would have the same thought as me and since the mosfet and the bjt maxs parts are quite similiar and if its not going to cost tomb any much extra why not offer it in a kit form as well.

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by H0bbes /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
That suggestion was made in good faith......

Never in my previous posts......

Oh, man up and stop being so sensitive.
 
Realistically, I suspect that very few people will build both a Mini- and MOSFET- Max. It will be either one or the other, and I personally see no problem with keeping the distinction as one being a safe kit, the other 'proper' DIY - purely for practical reasons of how they are built, and the ever-so-slight increased difficulty of the MOSFET version.
 
And I think that part of the problem is the other distinction between the builds that has cropped up. Tom is 'classifying' them into two different categories based on performance, which is something I think is totally unnecessary. I can understand entirely why he does it though...... the typical Head-Fier demands this segmentation and stereotyping. I want an amp for low impedance phones, I want an amp for high impedance phones, people say this amp sounds best with 'X' therefore it is no good for 'Y'. Ridiculous.
 
But I don't speak for Tom, so it is entirely up to him as to what he wants to stock. I just don't want to see him go to a whole heap of trouble designing and stocking a case for no good reason, or because of a vocal and/or lazy minority.

 

[tomb]

Beefy is correct in most of this, but he fails to mention the effort that it took to design and market that MiniMAX case.  It's easily the hardest thing I've done in DIY.  It also continues to be one of the largest investments in my small business to keep in stock.  Without the income from the kits, I'd never be able to afford to order more cases.  It's also why I steadfastly refuse to sell a kit without the case.  I have to order large manufacturing lots months in advance, then watch dozens of those cases sit in a box as my investment, hoping that they'll eventually sell during the next year.
 
As for the MOSFET-MAX, it's true that I'm trying to distinguish the two as different amps.  First, because I think they truly are different in how they apply to headphones.  Beefy indicated it without coming out and saying it - the MOSFET-MAX has plenty of current to supply an ortho whereas a MiniMAX probably doesn't.  A MOSFET-MAX is also the best thing I've heard with a K701, my favorite pairing, as a matter of fact.  At the same time, the voltage swing sort of sucks compared to the MiniMAX.  Part of this is the turn-on voltage of the MOSFETs - they eat quite a bit of voltage just to operate as compared to BJT's.  So, there is truly a technical difference between the two amps.
 
Second, if I don't emphasize the difference, and have any prospect of developing a custom case and kit for the MOSFET-MAX, then my huge investment in MiniMAX cases will go for naught - no one will be interested in those anymore if they think the amps are the same.
 
Just an FYI, but a true custom case for the MOSFET-MAX won't happen overnight (if it does at all).  It's a huge effort and in the end, I may not be able to afford it anyway.

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Beefy is correct in most of this, but he fails to mention the effort that it took to design and market that MiniMAX case.  It's easily the hardest thing I've done in DIY.

And what an absolutely legendary effort it was - I can't imagine anything else coming close.
 
I just wish there was some way I could justify keeping my own MiniMax

 

[H0bbes]

Quote:

Oh, man up and stop being so sensitive.
 
Realistically, I suspect that very few people will build both a Mini- and MOSFET- Max. It will be either one or the other, and I personally see no problem with keeping the distinction as one being a safe kit, the other 'proper' DIY - purely for practical reasons of how they are built, and the ever-so-slight increased difficulty of the MOSFET version.
 
And I think that part of the problem is the other distinction between the builds that has cropped up. Tom is 'classifying' them into two different categories based on performance, which is something I think is totally unnecessary. I can understand entirely why he does it though...... the typical Head-Fier demands this segmentation and stereotyping. I want an amp for low impedance phones, I want an amp for high impedance phones, people say this amp sounds best with 'X' therefore it is no good for 'Y'. Ridiculous.
 
But I don't speak for Tom, so it is entirely up to him as to what he wants to stock. I just don't want to see him go to a whole heap of trouble designing and stocking a case for no good reason, or because of a vocal and/or lazy minority.

 
Since its not my style to stooped to personal attacks I'll leave it as such
 
Hence my previous suggestion as a form of interest check if people would love to have a mosfetmax in a kit form as well, and tomb did posted that he too wonders if its worthwhile. In my books its not always either or, black or white, there's different shades of colors as well.
 
Again as i said previously my suggestion was also based on profitability/in a business point of view; supply and demand.
I also dont see anything wrong with people having or expressing their own opinions, at least it forms a basis of discussion.
Now i've heard that some people thinks that Grado cans are overly bright for them and Senheiser cans are overly veiled for them, so I should never try or buy both headphones? That sounds even more ridiculous.
 
Neither do i speak for him, like i said previously it was just an idea/interest check/a basis for discussion/suggestion and never did it crossed my mind that by giving an idea in this forum constitutes as being vocal or warrants any personal attacks. Perhaps I should redefine my definition of freedom of speech
 

 

[Beefy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by H0bbes /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Perhaps I should redefine my definition of freedom of speech
 

You will do well on Head-Fi.

 

[jdkJake]

Quote:

As for the MOSFET-MAX, it's true that I'm trying to distinguish the two as different amps.  First, because I think they truly are different in how they apply to headphones.  Beefy indicated it without coming out and saying it - the MOSFET-MAX has plenty of current to supply an ortho whereas a MiniMAX probably doesn't.  A MOSFET-MAX is also the best thing I've heard with a K701, my favorite pairing, as a matter of fact.  At the same time, the voltage swing sort of sucks compared to the MiniMAX.  Part of this is the turn-on voltage of the MOSFETs - they eat quite a bit of voltage just to operate as compared to BJT's.  So, there is truly a technical difference between the two amps.

Sorry Beefy, I have to agree with Tom on this one. As someone who has the luxury of owning both amps, sitting side-by-side, being feed from the same source, they are indeed different. They share a similar trait, but, different executions of that trait. 
 
Now that does NOT mean either will not suffice on it's own, that is certainly not true. I could easily be happy with one or the other and just make tube swaps to change the character as desired. Even that is really not necessary, but, it does allow me to manipulate the gain to great effect. I do have to say though, at first blush, the BJT miniMAX seems to be the better all-around performer. The MOSFET version seems to be just a bit more specialized in it's sound. So, I think the miniMAX kit is the better decision in the long run.
 
At the end of the day, I find it amazing Tom can justify the kits at all. I would suspect the audience for these products is fairly small. There is a lot of risk in what he is doing and I applaud him for taking that risk. I personally think one kit is plenty. The miniMAX serves the greatest audience and is one NICE piece of kit!
 

 

[jdkJake]

Quote:

 
I just wish there was some way I could justify keeping my own MiniMax

Looks like you have become a dedicated Stax man.  
 
One day I have to audition a pair of those. Then again, maybe I should just take my MAX's and run for the hills! This hobby is addictive and relentless at the same time.

 

[Beefy]

 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jdkJake /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Sorry Beefy, I have to agree with Tom on this one. As someone who has the luxury of owning both amps, sitting side-by-side, being feed from the same source, they are indeed different. They share a similar trait, but, different executions of that trait.

Oh, I'm not saying they don't sound different - I'm pretty sure they do. I'm just pressing the point that the MiniMax should only be for high impedance and the MOSFET Max only for high current is pretty silly. But the nature of Head-Fi demands these stereotypes.

 
Quote:

Looks like you have become a dedicated Stax man.    
One day I have to audition a pair of those. Then again, maybe I should just take my MAX's and run for the hills! This hobby is addictive and relentless at the same time.

No, not really dedicated Stax. In fact, I will probably not expand my Stax collection beyond the Exstata and SR-Lambda. But the MiniMax is sitting unused, and I really need a new DIY challenge. I don't know what that challenge is yet.
 
Ironically enough, considering what I posted above, it will almost certainly have to be a kit with casework included. While I'm overseas I just don't have access to the tools and space that casework requires. Maybe a Bottlehead kit, with some severe modifications and upgrades......