[maczrool]

I guess no one is interested in commenting on the clips I posted, and I thought you guys would be all over it!

Anyway, I am going to try to get an exchange and see if the problem persists.

Stu

 

[zeplin]

Bird Brain,

Of course people care about looks and physical appeal. It's what is involved in the process of creation. If no one here cares about the looks, then why should any company employee put any thought whatsoever into deciding how a product should look? Because people take it into account when buying a product...some more so than others. And you can't assume when someone says, "I'm not going to buy the iPOD, for what ever reason, even though it looks good," that he/she is placing as much emphasis on looks as you think they are. Having a cool looking pair of headphones goes along with everything else involving a headphone collection...it's a hobby! In fact, if I'm not mistaken, most products start out on a piece of paper drawn by a concept artist who's job is to make that product look appealing in order for it to become accepted into the first steps of creation.

hempcamp,

Again, we people here at head-fi constantly criticize the products that are out there for a number of reasons. And it's not because we have nothing better to do! Sometimes, people from a specific company may listen to what we have to say and take it into account when improving upon a product. It's called constructive criticism. And that is how we all grow to better ourselves and better the things that we create. And why would discussing the lack of sound quality not fit on this site? It's the often times among the heart of a lot of discussions we have here; how to improve something!!! Isn't the best possible sound quality that we can get for our dollar what we all are trying to achieve? At least I am! And the people that have experienced, for example, this loss in sound quality presented by the new iPOD are also here to inform others before they dive into a purchase...this is also what this site is about...helping others. WE ALL are already aware of the fact that nothing is perfect and that means no 500$ iPOD will be everything that we wanted it to be, but I hope we certainly can discuss its shortcomings here without ridicule...as we have always done and will always do with every headphone, speaker, cd player, etc. Everybody wishes. Is it wrong to wish about something being improved upon?

 

[hempcamp]

Quote:

Originally posted by zeplin Again, we people here at head-fi constantly criticize the products that are out there for a number of reasons. And it's not because we have nothing better to do! Sometimes, people from a specific company may listen to what we have to say and take it into account when improving upon a product. It's called constructive criticism.

There are limits to everything. Some of you go way, way, way beyond the limits of constructive criticism. It verges on the surreal.

The iPod is not marketed or designed to be an "audiophile" device, otherwise it would cost at least twice as much as it does. It is a consumer device for use with consumer cans/speakers, and in most cases it exceeds other consumer products out there in terms of audio quality. Judging it with "audiophile" criteria is like comparing, well, apples to oranges (pardon the pun).

In other words: comparing Grados to Sennheisers is great, constructive criticism. Unearthing weaknesses in $3000 SACD players is wonderful. Same thing with discussing the best op-amps for DIY, which cables provide the less muddy sound, etc. These are the reasons I started reading Head-Fi, because (contrary to what another poster said), I *am* interested in these things. But to hold a mass-marketed consumer-level audio device to the same standards applied to the above things is just ludicrous (not to mention obvious as hell that it can't compete).

As for Jobs, he'll just laugh his way all the way to the bank. Hell if he cares about your precious constructive criticism. Etymotic engineers might be reading this thread, but I seriously doubt Apple engineers have it bookmarked. The only thing that will change the nature of the iPod is competition -- something no one has been able to mount against Apple yet at the consumer level.

So, sit back, relax, and enjoy the iPod for what it's worth -- and remember that several million people in the world don't even have shoes on their feet, let alone $300 portable music players.

--Chris

 

[zeplin]

hemp,

I think you are blowing these people's "complaints" out to proportions that are meeting your standards, which are elevated to another level compared to these people making the complaints, or more like simple concerns. Implying that other people should care more about real world issues rather than our consumer products is what's ludicrous. My family has worked from the bottom up (starting without having shoes on their feet) to get where they are today and to put me through college. And I'll, or anyone else here will be damned if we can't wish once in awhile for something to be improved upon that we all buy with hard earned money. That's wierd that you say a mass market product can't (or shouldn't just because of the fact that it is part of a mass market) have good sound quality, because I can name a few that do...like the line out of some Sony cd players(EJ-10000), which by the way is all we ask for (and that doesn't mean wishing for audiophile sound either). Look at A LOT of the older PCDP Sony models, they all sound great, and they were mass marketed. Oh, and by the way, you'de be surprised at how many company srategists are out there, lurking the internet, getting ideas from people who speak their mind...my cousin does it all the time...that's part of what she does. Why do you think companies hand out surverys in a high variety of ways? And like I said already, most of us already know what to expect out of our audio products that we buy in a certain price category, so it's not really a let down. NO ONE'S talking about audiophile sound here! It's just that we like to come here, because this is the place to do it, to maybe let off some steam, or see of anyone else has the same opinion. And last time I looked, the Apple iPOD isn't really all that cheap, 500$ for what, 30Gigs? When a product is that expensive, it doesn't matter if it is mass marketed. It should have really good sound quality. Sound quality should be at least somewhat correlated to the price. It is in most cases. Now, if you want to go buy a 35$ mp3 player, then sound quality most likely would be sacrificed for the price you pay. From what I've read here so far, no one here is wanting the iPOD to have audiophile sound, just better EQ options...that's all. I think you haven't given these people here the benefit of a doubt. You've jumped down their throats, assuming they are these crazy self absorbing people, all for making a claim or a wish, which Apple is perfectly capable of doing very easily...as many companies have also done so before (making improvments). You have no right to make such accusations about people who simply make a statement on a forum. I'm sorry, it just seems wierd to get mad at people who wish their 300-500$ iPODS had better sound quality, and better options to deal with. Also, most people here are well educated and DO NOT, nor have ever held their audio concerns higher than world poverty or similar issues. I think I can stand as one of those people given the fact that I like to go to other countries and help other people who are starving have food to eat!!!

 

[williamgoody]

The iPod is not marketed or designed to be an "audiophile" device, otherwise it would cost at least twice as much as it does.[?QUOTE]

Really, I didn't know it worked that way.

Should I have paid a grand for my SACD player then? After all, the format is realy geared towards audiophiles.

 

[appar111]

Hemp-
I agree, alot of us forget that we are very priveleged to enjoy the little luxuries that we do, like iPods and nice headphones, etc. And you're also right that companies like Etymotic care about our criticisms, but its highly unlikely that Apple and Jobs really give a crap. I mean, I like Apple products, but basically Apple tells you what your getting, rather than asking for input. And most of the time I like their stuff.

I was simply saying that there are little improvements that could have been made to the iPod that weren't, like the EQ settings. Ok, alot of those presets depend on the headphones used, volume, type of music-- so maybe I'm asking too much that they tweak the presets. But they could have at least allowed the option of exporting custom EQ settings from iTunes to the iPod directly-- it wouldn't have been that hard. And that's not an "audiophile" request, that's a simple consumer request, and not an unreasonable one.

But, no one's putting a gun to my head to buy the iPod, so I can always look elsewhere for a product with better (read: better, not necessarily AUDIOPHILE) sound quality. Just a shame that we can't have the best looks and the best sound quality in the same package....


appar111

 

[Bird Brain]

Thank you Zep, I sure hope I have not offended anyone here at Head-Fi because as you know (Or can read by my # of post) that I'm relatively new to this site. I am a enthusiast bordering on phile but I have always concentrated on my home system as opposed to my portable rig. I have started doing a lot of biking and walking with my wife and my only goal is to gain advice and knowledge from the people at this site to get the best sound for my buying dollar out of my portable rig. One of my current problems is how fast the battery drains in my Sharp S301 MD and my real question that no one has answered for me yet is it logical to buy an Airhead amp and run it off the headphone jack of the S301? Should I be satisfied with the headphone out amp on my PX100's until I decide to go for a line out player?

p.s. Chris, from an old hempster of old times, less hemp= less short temper with old hempster's

 

[Clutz]

Quote:

Originally posted by zeplin hemp, I think you are blowing these people's "complaints" out to proportions that are meeting your standards, which are elevated to another level compared to these people making the complaints, or more like simple concerns. Implying that other people should care more about real world issues rather than our consumer products is what's ludicrous. My family has worked from the bottom up (starting without having shoes on their feet) to get where they are today and to put me through college. And I'll, or anyone else here will be damned if we can't wish once in awhile for something to be improved upon that we all buy with hard earned money. That's wierd that you say a mass market product can't (or shouldn't just because of the fact that it is part of a mass market) have good sound quality, because I can name a few that do...like the line out of some Sony cd players(EJ-10000), which by the way is all we ask for (and that doesn't mean wishing for audiophile sound either). Look at A LOT of the older PCDP Sony models, they all sound great, and they were mass marketed. Oh, and by the way, you'de be surprised at how many company srategists are out there, lurking the internet, getting ideas from people who speak their mind...my cousin does it all the time...that's part of what she does. Why do you think companies hand out surverys in a high variety of ways? And like I said already, most of us already know what to expect out of our audio products that we buy in a certain price category, so it's not really a let down. NO ONE'S talking about audiophile sound here! It's just that we like to come here, because this is the place to do it, to maybe let off some steam, or see of anyone else has the same opinion. And last time I looked, the Apple iPOD isn't really all that cheap, 500$ for what, 30Gigs? When a product is that expensive, it doesn't matter if it is mass marketed. It should have really good sound quality. Sound quality should be at least somewhat correlated to the price. It is in most cases. Now, if you want to go buy a 35$ mp3 player, then sound quality most likely would be sacrificed for the price you pay. From what I've read here so far, no one here is wanting the iPOD to have audiophile sound, just better EQ options...that's all. I think you haven't given these people here the benefit of a doubt. You've jumped down their throats, assuming they are these crazy self absorbing people, all for making a claim or a wish, which Apple is perfectly capable of doing very easily...as many companies have also done so before (making improvments). You have no right to make such accusations about people who simply make a statement on a forum. I'm sorry, it just seems wierd to get mad at people who wish their 300-500$ iPODS had better sound quality, and better options to deal with. Also, most people here are well educated and DO NOT, nor have ever held their audio concerns higher than world poverty or similar issues. I think I can stand as one of those people given the fact that I like to go to other countries and help other people who are starving have food to eat!!!

Dude, all hemp was doing is expressing his opinion, much the same way you are expressing your opinion now. Since they are opinions, neither of them can be correct or incorrect.

 

[stan23]

I enjoy the ipod for what it is and marketed it for. An elegant simple to use hd-based MP3 player. Yes there are flaws and little quirks. Some are bothersome, and most aren't. IMO if the ones really do bother me, I will return the unit and get something else. We as consumers *have* that choice. No one stuck a gun to your head and told you to buy the ipod. If you feel like your $500 is wasted on a non audophile standard product--then so be it. Buy something else then.

For me, I voiced my opinion on the flaws of the new ipods. Had I not gotten a response from apple, then I would think twice about spending money on their products again. So far, they have been above and beyond in helping me get my skipping problem looked at. Only time will tell on how they handle things.

As far as the ipod itself is concerned, i'm not too worried about having the *best* in sound quality from such a portable device.. Perhaps i'm a bit jaded in thinking that nothing in this world is perfect.. Like I mentioned before, my E46 'ultimate' driving machine M3 was flawed with quirks and bugs..

 

[zeplin]

I know that everyone here is simply stating an opinion, and I encourage that. All I'm doing is relaying true facts, and experiences that I and many others here have gained over time. I am in no way mad at anyone, even though it may seem like it. I never get mad. And I also believe that anyone here should be able to voice their own opinion without ridicule, especially if they're new to this hobby and don't yet have as clear of a understanding as others do. But when someone bashes another for wanting something improved upon on a 500 dollar piece of portable audio gear, I at least must step in and say what I think. And if someone shares a tiny negetive feeling about the new iPOD, and still doesn't wish to return it, then chances are that that little negetive feeling isn't as big as some others are perceiving it to be...or else the person sharing their concern would return it...which is again why I think it is completely pointless to harp on someone who has made a tiny complaint (a complaint that has nothing to do with wanting audiophile sound quality). And there's never anything wrong with a harmless debate...No hard feelings Hemp

Bird Brain,

I have never tried the Airhead nor the PX100, but I can say that I do have a headroom Cosmic and the improvments, to me, are definitely worth it. I can only imagine that you will be pleased as well by adding an amp, you just have to ask yourself if it will justify spending the extra money. You can purchase the amp and return within 30 days if you're not satisfied. Most likely, you will hear a small, slightly noticeable difference. If I were you, I would wait until I bought a better headphone before going for the Airhead. The PX100 will probably not let you hear those positive differences as well as the Sennheiser HD600 would. Maybe, save up for a better can and better amp...you will be more than happy with the results of a better amp and headphone! I use to think that spending more on headphones and amps wouldn't improve the sound drastically and that I could stay under 150.00...until I auditioned a Cosmic and HD600...it all goes downhill from there, from my wallets point of view. But then again, I might be wrong. Be patient, and someone with direct experience will be able to help you. I'm sorry I couldn't help more. Good luck in your search

 

[88keys]

Quote:

Originally posted by KennyX Well I suppose I could force a brick into my pockets, but that wont happen any time soon . Really though, I suppose if you're wearing some really baggy pants they'd fit comfortably, otherwise it just doesnt work.

The Zen hardly qualifies as a brick...it's about 90g heavier than the iPod, which is most probably less than the change in your wallet (I actually checked this out on my own wallet). In terms of size, it's about 14 mm wider than the iPod, 8mm taller, and 6 mm deeper. That comes to about 5/8 of a cubic centimeter in difference...hardly a big deal.

Furthermore, (and most imporantly) it sounds a helluva lot better than the iPod...it has a 100mW max out compared with the iPod's 60 mW max, yet it lasts for about 4 hours longer. My suggestion would be to lose the stylish butt-huggers, cause any normal pants fit a Zen just fine. In any case, if you're going with the hi-fidelity gluteus look, an iPod will J-Lo your backside just as much as a Zen would.

Peace to you and yours.

 

[Dweebgal]

woud you ever need to listen to the zen at anywhere near 100mw though?

it would make my ears bleed.

60 is sufficent for me seeing as i'm used to the 5mw per channel of sony md players, and with the d66s that was plenty loud enough for me.

 

[Blighty]

Quote:

Originally posted by 88keys The Zen hardly qualifies as a brick...it's about 90g heavier than the iPod, which is most probably less than the change in your wallet (I actually checked this out on my own wallet). In terms of size, it's about 14 mm wider than the iPod, 8mm taller, and 6 mm deeper. That comes to about 5/8 of a cubic centimeter in difference...hardly a big deal.

Compared in person to the IPOD, the Nomad really does seem like a brick. Much too unwieldy to carry during the warmer months.

Quote:

Furthermore, (and most imporantly) it sounds a helluva lot better than the iPod...it has a 100mW max out compared with the iPod's 60 mW max, yet it lasts for about 4 hours longer. My suggestion would be to lose the stylish butt-huggers, cause any normal pants fit a Zen just fine.

I am not sure where this rumour started but I find that they both sound very similar in quality with 32-60Ohm headphones. You only need about 1mW to go deaf with most low impedance headphones out there. I cannot fathom needing 50mW per channel @ 32 Ohms unless you are driving full size high impedance headphones like Beyers or Sennheisers. Most people do not do this with a portable player at any rate as there are more suitable solutions for those applications.
Also, bear in mind that Creative is famous for exaggerating their technical specifications or at the very least, interpreting them in irregular ways. I highly doubt that you will get the advertised 98dB SNR that Creative seems to like flaunting.

 

[88keys]

LOL the 'warmer months?' I hope that was supposed to be funny, especially given your registered location

.

Quote:

Originally posted by Blighty Compared in person to the IPOD, the Nomad really does seem like a brick. Much too unwieldy to carry during the warmer months. I am not sure where this rumour started but I find that they both sound very similar in quality with 32-60Ohm headphones. You only need about 1mW to go deaf with most low impedance headphones out there. I cannot fathom needing 50mW per channel @ 32 Ohms unless you are driving full size high impedance headphones like Beyers or Sennheisers. Most people do not do this with a portable player at any rate as there are more suitable solutions for those applications. Also, bear in mind that Creative is famous for exaggerating their technical specifications or at the very least, interpreting them in irregular ways. I highly doubt that you will get the advertised 98dB SNR that Creative seems to like flaunting. [/B]

 

[jaskin]

We do get very hot Summers here in Canada

Edit: Grammatical errors