[IDrinkLava]

That's called a binaural recording and there's a perfectly rational explanation for it. When a sound is recorded with silicone ears that emulate the effects of the human pinna or even with microphones that insert deep enough into the ear canal, it will emulate the frequency filtering and interaural time delay caused by HRTF that are responsible for "front", "rear" and "elevation" cues.

A plain 2.0 channel stereo mix that was mixed for speakers will not be capable of replicating these effects.

 

[earmonger]

That's called a binaural recording and there's a perfectly rational explanation for it. When a sound is recorded with silicone ears that emulate the effects of the human pinna or even with microphones that insert deep enough into the ear canal, it will emulate the frequency filtering and interaural time delay caused by HRTF that are responsible for "front", "rear" and "elevation" cues.

A plain 2.0 channel stereo mix that was mixed for speakers will not be capable of replicating these effects.

It's not just live binaural recordings simulating HRTF. Producers can make acoustic or synthetic sounds materialize all over the place in a mix using delay, reverb and who knows what other gizmos. Listen to the placement of all the keyboards, percussion, vocals and the crazy flute in this Davido track from Nigeria.
. That's not binaural recording; that's studio magic.

 

[IDrinkLava]

Yes, producers can use those bog-standard DSP effects in any DAW nowdays. It's still a flat 2D plane of audio, being played back at varying degrees between 0 and 100% in the left or right channel.

I could show you a piece of traditional Chinese artwork that showcases magnificent depth using a vertical vista and use of faded colors to simulate atmospheric effects. It's still always going to be a flat 2D image.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

What are you even talking about? The "soundstage" can only ever be as wide as how far apart the drivers are. The stereo image can't just magically go outside the boundaries of the drivers (outside of reflections) because drivers output directional sound that fires into your ears. Also, the K712 Pro uses the exact same driver capsule (DKK45) as the K701 and K702.

Because the problems in headphone listening can make the electric guitar sound which goes through amps ie guitar speakers in a booth where the mics are, not an acousitc guitar with a mic right up the chamber in the guitar seem "larger" so the overall width seems "wider." In reality it's a problem, unlike when say a Focal Stella Utopia can make the drums sound like it's coming from a meter behind the Z-axis line where the speakers are because they're really just working better to reproduce the actual sound.

Oh and uhhh...the K1000 can image sound wider where its drivers are too.

And hanging them off your head isn't the only way to do that. How many people took their headphones off thinking something else is happening in the house but they're just hearing sound of the percussion farther out than the inside your forehead Grado image.

Also, the K712 Pro uses the exact same driver capsule (DKK45) as the K701 and K702.

Not the same earpads though.

Kind of like how the HD600 up there has everything pushed farther away from the head because it's not the same earpads as the stock ones. I'm using angled Brainwavz pads. Kind of like how the K70x use angled earpads.

That's called a binaural recording and there's a perfectly rational explanation for it. When a sound is recorded with silicone ears that emulate the effects of the human pinna or even with microphones that insert deep enough into the ear canal, it will emulate the frequency filtering and interaural time delay caused by HRTF that are responsible for "front", "rear" and "elevation" cues.

A plain 2.0 channel stereo mix that was mixed for speakers will not be capable of replicating these effects.

What are you even talking about.

The only times I can hear an elevation variance are

1. Reflections off a hard floor, like concrete, when sitting too close to a 3-way+, 3+ driver speaker

2. A car where even with time alignment the midwoofers are not angled upward and the carpet is really just too thin to even help the reflections

3. 10.1 Atmos.

 

[IDrinkLava]

1. This is because of your subconscious brain interpolating the data it's receiving from external stimuli. With no visual cues, your brain might be interpreting differences in treble balance and time delay as subjectively different "stage placement". In reality, the 2.0 audio mix is always the same. You can observe a phenomenon similar to this here.
2. Angled earpads would not make a difference in "soundstage" because the drivers will still be sitting more or less the same distance from the ears.
3. Binaural recordings are capable of recording elevation effects due to simulating the filtering done by the human ear. Take a listen to this homemade binaural recording and you will hear it.

 

[oakparkmusicguy]

For classical the 6XX are great.

 

[earmonger]

1. This is because of your subconscious brain interpolating the data it's receiving from external stimuli. With no visual cues, your brain might be interpreting differences in treble balance and time delay as subjectively different "stage placement". In reality, the 2.0 audio mix is always the same. You can observe a phenomenon similar to this here.
2. Angled earpads would not make a difference in "soundstage" because the drivers will still be sitting more or less the same distance from the ears.
3. Binaural recordings are capable of recording elevation effects due to simulating the filtering done by the human ear. Take a listen to this homemade binaural recording and you will hear it.

Is there an argument here? Yes, headphones are creating an illusion. I don't think Taylor Swift or Sunn O))) or Vijay Iyer or the Vienna Philharmonic are inside my computer trying to yell out through the headphone jack. I don't think the sounds I hear in the headphones are actually out in space. I know they are in the drivers next to my ears.

Headphones are built to reproduce the temporal and spatial cues encoded in a recording that provide the illusion of space. Every headphone tries to accomplish that in a different way with different degrees of success. Some successfully simulate the aural cues to tell my brain it's getting sounds from separate places. Others, not so much. Yes, literally the only thing I'm hearing is the vibrations of the drivers. But those vibrations can definitely tell my perceptual apparatus that a sound isn't only right next to my pinnae.

It's the same way you see perspective in a painting. No one is arguing that the painting is not flat. But the image on it doesn't have to be perceived that way.

 

[IDrinkLava]

headphone

So how is it that one headphone whose stereo image measures 10 inches apart at the furthest points be considered a "narrow soundstage" while another headphone whose stereo image measures the same exact size be considered "wide soundstage"? Leaving aside external biases, if both are equalized to the same target and played at the same volume, why would one be more "spacious" than the other?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

1. This is because of your subconscious brain interpolating the data it's receiving from external stimuli. With no visual cues, your brain might be interpreting differences in treble balance and time delay as subjectively different "stage placement". In reality, the 2.0 audio mix is always the same. You can observe a phenomenon similar to this here.

Yes, it's definitely the visual cues. For example, this is what I see when I'm listening.

I can totally see the headstock of the guitar sticking out from the left border there.

1. This is because of your subconscious brain interpolating the data it's receiving from external stimuli. With no visual cues, your brain might be interpreting differences in treble balance and time delay as subjectively different "stage placement". In reality, the 2.0 audio mix is always the same. You can observe a phenomenon similar to this here.
2. Angled earpads would not make a difference in "soundstage" because the drivers will still be sitting more or less the same distance from the ears.

It affects the response.

So at this point, which is it?

Am I perceiving treble issues or is there no difference in the distance.

1. Binaural recordings are capable of recording elevation effects due to simulating the filtering done by the human ear. Take a listen to this homemade binaural recording and you will hear it.

Still haven't heard it yet except in Atmos or a bad room.

 

[earmonger]

So how is it that one headphone whose stereo image measures 10 inches apart at the furthest points be considered a "narrow soundstage" while another headphone whose stereo image measures the same exact size be considered "wide soundstage"? Leaving aside external biases, if both are equalized to the same target and played at the same volume, why would one be more "spacious" than the other?

"Stereo image measures 10 inches apart." How are you measuring an illusion?

You are saying (1) that binaural recording produces the illusion of elevation and distance (which I can clearly hear on my ATH-R70X in your binaural test) and
(2) that there is no such thing as soundstage. Huh?

Soundstage is the illusion, the interaction between the recording, the headphones (drivers, pads, fit) and your incredible perceptual apparatus. It's not the distance between the drivers.

"If both are equalized to the same target"...

a) Frequency response curves do not capture tonality and timbre. The actual sound of the headphone would still vary. Less, perhaps, but not the same. If you put a goatskin head on a drum and a plastic head on a drum, and tune them both as closely as possible, they will still sound different. Ditto headphone drivers with different shapes, materials, placements.

b) Why would you want to equalize to the same target? Designers choose their EQ for a reason. Sure, adjust to personal taste and individual hearing response, but why own a bass cannon when you want the optimum response to a string quartet. You choose a headphone for the sonic illusion you prefer.

 

[IDrinkLava]

Ok, I'm just going to ignore ProtegeManiac's reply because he either can't read what I type and lacks the ability to hear the clear height cues in that recording or he's intentionally trolling me.

Spoiler

"Stereo image measures 10 inches apart." How are you measuring an illusion?

Spoiler

It's not an illusion, it's the absolute width of the stereo image as produces by the drivers. If you listen to a track that hard pans channels to 100% left or 100% right like old Amiga game soundtracks or early Beatles mixes, you can clearly measure the distance of what you're listening to. It lines up with the distance between the drivers as they sit on your head. Setting aside subjective interpretation, a Sennheiser HD 600-series and HD 800-series will output these music at the exact same points of 10 inches. No "illusions" involved.

You are saying (1) that binaural recording produces the illusion of elevation and distance (which I can clearly hear on my ATH-R70X in your binaural test) and
(2) that there is no such thing as soundstage. Huh?

Because the binaural recording isn't an "illusion", the effects it produces are clearly measurable and will show up on a spectral analysis. It's the exact same reason why a loudspeaker measured with a regular mono microphone will show a flat, downwards slope, but when measured at the entrance of an ear canal will show that large 1kHz-4kHz hump. The human ear filters out frequencies differently than a flat-measuring microphone, and it's those frequencies that create "front, "rear", and "elevation" cues.

Soundstage is the illusion, the interaction between the recording, the headphones (drivers, pads, fit) and your incredible perceptual apparatus. It's not the distance between the drivers.

It's also something that's way too subjective and immeasurable to be used as a serious recommendation for newcomers compared to the frequency response measurements, build quality, comfort for long-term usage, any quality of life features like detachable cables or a built-in mic etc. To your ears, you hear headphones as a massive symphony that fills the room around you. To my ears, I hear both the Sennheiser HD 600 and Sennheiser HD 800 as just a plain, 2.0 channel signal being played back from drivers a few inches away from my ears.

a) Frequency response curves do not capture tonality and timbre.

I disagree, I find the quality of "timbre" to be severely overstated. It's just an acoustic voltage being played back on some magnets, nothing at all like whatever drum analogy you came up with. Engineers like Sean Olive have done tests between real headphones and virtualized headphones using EQ translations and found an agreement of 85% confidence between trained listeners. Maybe in exotic cases like some boutique estats you might find timbre differences, but not for the dynamic drivers that make up the majority of the market share.

b) Why would you want to equalize to the same target?

Because the Sennheiser HD 800 sounds like total garbage out of the box? It's basically a $1500 Philips SHP9500 without EQ.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

"Ignore," but comments about ignoring.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure buddy.

I really miss those times when people just listened to music, because now apparently not seeing anything because my eyes are closed while listening is "trolling." Even better is that back then I have not had the displeasure of having had an exchange with somebody that drinks lava.

 

[IDrinkLava]

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

How is any of your post conducive to helping the OP find a replacement for their AKG K550?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

How is claiming to ignore a relevant post conducive to helping the OP find a replacement for their AKG K550?

Ok, I'm just going to ignore ProtegeManiac's reply because he either can't read what I type and lacks the ability to hear the clear height cues in that recording or he's intentionally trolling me.

And whatever happened to "ignore" there.

 

[AKGman]

Hi all! I am used to closed back headphones. I really LOVED the AKG K550 despite it's bad seal. It always had a magical sound to my (untrained) ears. I am now looking for an open headphone though. My budget is max 400 euros (this is stretching a lot) but if there is a headphone that is 150 or less that would be the best for me. If this helps: I loved the sound of the AKG K550 but the AKGK371 is too warm for me.

What I listen to the most:
Classical
Jazz
Acapella.
Rock
Metal
Some Drum n Bass.

But classical, jazz and acapella the most.

What I love the most about headphones:

Realistic instruments and sounds. (the need to actually put down your headphones and listen if that sound come from your home or the headphones. lol)
Soundstage
Imaging.

I like my headphone to sound neutral, leaning a bit bright (sparkly treble but not too fatiguing!) while no recessed mids. (if that is possible lol)

I actually was thinking about planar headphones like the HifiMan HE400SE or the Sundara. How are these when taking a look at my preferences?
And also, the HD6xx!

I am living in Europe if that helps. If you have other headphones to recommend, shoot away!


Thanks!

Rob.

Electrostratic headphones like the Stax Lambda series have realistic instruments & vocal sounds. (where you might think the singer is actually in your room) And the sound is more like the sound that was recorded (compared to dynamic headphones).

Sounstage and imaging- this can only be really good with speakers. But headphones are a different way of wearing a record- sometimes you might want to hear the left and right channels separately. The first Led Zeppelin album is considered to be good for headphones.