New Flat/Accurate IEM Target

[Heraldo Jones]

I will keep an eye on this thread

 

[Vamp898]

Is there anyone really mixing music with IEM?

I can not talk for every country and studio, but especially in Japan, Mixing/Mastering with Headphoens/IEM is very common and is getting more and more common.

One of the more famous engineer is 杉山勇司 (That one also was responsible of the Tuning of the FitEar MH334 Studio Reference and FitEar MH335DW Studio Reference).

I am not sure about the situation in other countries, but Vision Ears is a german company and i am pretty sure they created the VE7 on customer demand. Musicians approached Vision Ears and told them, they want an IEM that can do mixing. Either that, or Vision Ears did see an market for this. They have quite some people doing mixes in their list of artists, i assume they use their Vision Ears for mixing

 

[stefT]

Happy to see an alternative to the very "audiophile" Harman curve. I have the Gaudio Nair and I think they sound close to your curve with less bass.

 

[Vamp898]

Happy to see an alternative to the very "audiophile" Harman curve. I have the Gaudio Nair and I think they sound close to your curve with less bass.

They actually do! But i am working on an update of the Target in the Bass Region right now. It is very time consuming to change anything on that target because i am constantly comparing the result with several IEM and a set of speakers which takes time. So this is the current work in progress, i am not finished on this yet and there is a big chance it will change again. So take the 0.8.38 Target with a big grain of salt.

 

[o0genesis0o]

I can not talk for every country and studio, but especially in Japan, Mixing/Mastering with Headphoens/IEM is very common and is getting more and more common.

One of the more famous engineer is 杉山勇司 (That one also was responsible of the Tuning of the FitEar MH334 Studio Reference and FitEar MH335DW Studio Reference).

I am not sure about the situation in other countries, but Vision Ears is a german company and i am pretty sure they created the VE7 on customer demand. Musicians approached Vision Ears and told them, they want an IEM that can do mixing. Either that, or Vision Ears did see an market for this. They have quite some people doing mixes in their list of artists, i assume they use their Vision Ears for mixing

Thanks for the response, mate!

Please do share the final txt of the target if you are willing to. I would like to add it to one of the reviewer preference target on my graph tool.

Don't you think the above 10kHz is too dark with this target? I remember watching a can jam seminar of Knowles where they redo the research with the new 5128 rig and found that there is supposed to be much more energy around 15kHz. The old rig couldn't measure accurately up there, so they rolled down those frequencies.

They actually do! But i am working on an update of the Target in the Bass Region right now. It is very time consuming to change anything on that target because i am constantly comparing the result with several IEM and a set of speakers which takes time. So this is the current work in progress, i am not finished on this yet and there is a big chance it will change again. So take the 0.8.38 Target with a big grain of salt.

The second target with distinct bass shelf looks interesting. Though, due to the 711 coupler, I would make a gently slop from 250 to 1k (+2db at 250Hz), and then add a shelf from 250Hz down.

Anyhow, that would likely make a fun and potentially incorrect IEM, whatever "correct" means.

Edit: if it were me, I would raise the whole ear gain region to around 6-8dB. I found that orchestra does not sound right with 5dB ear gain. To my ears, 8dB is the goldilocks zone. It seems many well-tuned IEMs nowadays also land on 8dB.

 

[Vamp898]

Thanks for the response, mate!

You're welcome^^

Please do share the final txt of the target if you are willing to. I would like to add it to one of the reviewer preference target on my graph tool.

Wow! Thats cool. Its here =) https://ignaz.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/DYCPLYbNbaQcPt5

Don't you think the above 10kHz is too dark with this target? I remember watching a can jam seminar of Knowles where they redo the research with the new 5128 rig and found that there is supposed to be much more energy around 15kHz. The old rig couldn't measure accurately up there, so they rolled down those frequencies.


The second target with distinct bass shelf looks interesting. Though, due to the 711 coupler, I would make a gently slop from 250 to 1k (+2db at 250Hz), and then add a shelf from 250Hz down.

Anyhow, that would likely make a fun and potentially incorrect IEM, whatever "correct" means.

Edit: if it were me, I would raise the whole ear gain region to around 6-8dB. I found that orchestra does not sound right with 5dB ear gain. To my ears, 8dB is the goldilocks zone. It seems many well-tuned IEMs nowadays also land on 8dB.

You are not the first person demanding an raise in the ear-gain in that target^^ I think the best is to further explain how/why this target was created.

The point/reason for this target is to analyze how Studio Reference Monitors are tuned and to find an average that represents how these are tuned.

So this target is not "How i think Flat/Accurate should sound", this target is "How are Flat/Accurate IEM tuned".

The only thing i do in addition is to test the IEM and check if it actually sounds correct/flat and if i find something that does, but measures different, check why it does. I do so by compare different masters on the IEM to an calibrated Studio Reference Monitor Speaker (The earlier mentioned Neumann KH 120 II) to see if it sounds flat.

I also mix a test track and see, if the track that was mixed with the IEM, sounds exactly how it is supposed to sound on the Reference Monitor Speaker and if not, check in which sections its different and why. That way i try to fine tuned the target which is very complicated as two IEM, that measure different, can sound almost identical due to different placing in the ear canal. So this target can only give an hint, without putting it into your actual ear, it is hard to tell if it will perform exactly as supposed to you.

About your observation with the Orchestra. If an Orchestra doesn't sound correct with one of these IEM, it will also not sound correct on the Neumann KH 120 II which means, it was not mixed/mastered to sound correct on an Studio Reference Monitor and hence you should be able to hear that.

Flat/Accurate does not mean the Instrument sounds Flat/Accurate, it means the Mix/Master sounds Flat/Accurate. Instruments that are mastered with a lack of eargain should have a lack of eargain on any of these IEM.

If i would raise the ear gain to 6-8db, no Studio Reference IEM would hit that target anymore and so the target would loose its point on showing how Flat/Accurate IEM are tuned. So Flat/Accurate does not describe the Instrument you hear in the Recording, it is not supposed to sound "Live" or "Real".

There are tons of reason on why especially orchestra music is mastered with a lack of eargain. One of the reasons is, that you can listen at very high volumes to give you an immersive feel. The more ear gain, the more you are limited to listen at high volumes as it will turn painfull. But also because they know their customers. Who does buy Orchestra Recordings in Hi-Res Audio and what gear do they use to listen to music?^^ Audiophiles using audiophile gear^^

 

[782369]

Weird idea.
I use kz as16pro-s for playing live with a band (until the westone’s and hiseniors arrve).
Would it make sense to try to eq-them to try to resemble the reference curve or is the exercise pointless?

 

[o0genesis0o]

@Vamp898 hey mate, your target is online on my graph tool: https://nk-tran.com/iegems-graphtool/?share=Vamp898_Target,Andromeda_2020

Your target feels like an old school western full BA set with thick mid and no distinct bass shelf. In fact, there is one IEM in my collection that match your target to a T

 

[Vamp898]

Weird idea.
I use kz as16pro-s for playing live with a band (until the westone’s and hiseniors arrve).
Would it make sense to try to eq-them to try to resemble the reference curve or is the exercise pointless?

That is much more complicated than you'd think. I tried it myself several times and failed. It works very well and reliable on speakers, but not on IEM and there are several reasons for that.

IEM measurements are not reliable enough. They are not completely wrong, but often IEM that are measured using the exact same tools, result in different results depending on the person who does it. This is due to several reasons

Earphones perform different depending on the insertion depth (Insertion depth can not be reliable simulated to this point), if you use them with silicone eartips, they can cause air pressure issues that change the sound that will have no effect on the measurements (so use foam with sealed IEM to get the real performance). Depending on volume, they sound very different (speakers too by the way). So if two people measure the exact same IEM at different volumes, they will get different performance graphs. And this is the next issue.

If you EQ two IEM to perform the same, given the measurements are perfect, you have to use the exact same Volume for them to sound the same.

Example: Both IEM have been measured at 90db, you EQ them to sound the same --> they sound the same at 90db --> they sound different at 70db.

And the other way around. So two IEM may look like they measure pretty different in the graph, but sound almost the same when you use them at listening volume.

But it can also happen that they measure different, but sound the same due do different insertion depth as mentioned earlier or just the overall stem design and so on --> you EQ them to sound the same --> they will sound different.

This is the exact same IEM, measured by 4 different people



Depending on which of these measurements you'd use as reference, the result would differ drastic, especially in the treble but the overall performance too.

So you can not EQ anything to my target to make it sound correct, it sadly is not that simple. You can use my target to see if something will sound approximately flat, but there are IEM that sound flat and can be used as studio reference who do not perfectly hit my target.

The second measurement for example hits my target very well, the fourth measurement not. In one Measurement, there is a difference of 5db in 800Hz <--> 2kHz, in the other measurement, its a 10db difference.

That is a drastic difference that will cause a completely different sound. You can not trust measurements and hence you can not trust my target that is based on measurements.

So you can use my target to check if the overall tuning of an IEM tends towards flat/accurate but there will be no way around putting them into your ear and testing them for yourself. Use it as an inspiration, but don't put too much trust into it or even try EQing your current gear to it hoping they will be usable for mixing/mastering afterwards.

But if you buy an Studio Reference from a famous maker, you're probably on the safe side, or you find someone who tested your IEM and compared it against a flat reference. Most of these companies (especially those who target musicians) test their gear with musicians and sell it to be used by musicians. The FitEar Studio Reference Series for example was tuned by a famous Mixing/Mastering Engineer, the same is true for the Canal Works CW-U77 and many others.

Musicians use them every day to make music, so you're on the safe side. That doesn't mean trust IEM for musicians in general. An drummer on stage usually wants a different sound than an Mixing/Mastering Engineer in the studio. So you have to check who is the intended target group.

 

[782369]

That is much more complicated than you'd think. I tried it myself several times and failed. It works very well and reliable on speakers, but not on IEM and there are several reasons for that.

IEM measurements are not reliable enough. They are not completely wrong, but often IEM that are measured using the exact same tools, result in different results depending on the person who does it. This is due to several reasons

Earphones perform different depending on the insertion depth (Insertion depth can not be reliable simulated to this point), if you use them with silicone eartips, they can cause air pressure issues that change the sound that will have no effect on the measurements (so use foam with sealed IEM to get the real performance). Depending on volume, they sound very different (speakers too by the way). So if two people measure the exact same IEM at different volumes, they will get different performance graphs. And this is the next issue.

If you EQ two IEM to perform the same, given the measurements are perfect, you have to use the exact same Volume for them to sound the same.

Example: Both IEM have been measured at 90db, you EQ them to sound the same --> they sound the same at 90db --> they sound different at 70db.

And the other way around. So two IEM may look like they measure pretty different in the graph, but sound almost the same when you use them at listening volume.

But it can also happen that they measure different, but sound the same due do different insertion depth as mentioned earlier or just the overall stem design and so on --> you EQ them to sound the same --> they will sound different.

This is the exact same IEM, measured by 4 different people



Depending on which of these measurements you'd use as reference, the result would differ drastic, especially in the treble but the overall performance too.

So you can not EQ anything to my target to make it sound correct, it sadly is not that simple. You can use my target to see if something will sound approximately flat, but there are IEM that sound flat and can be used as studio reference who do not perfectly hit my target.

The second measurement for example hits my target very well, the fourth measurement not. In one Measurement, there is a difference of 5db in 800Hz <--> 2kHz, in the other measurement, its a 10db difference.

That is a drastic difference that will cause a completely different sound. You can not trust measurements and hence you can not trust my target that is based on measurements.

So you can use my target to check if the overall tuning of an IEM tends towards flat/accurate but there will be no way around putting them into your ear and testing them for yourself. Use it as an inspiration, but don't put too much trust into it or even try EQing your current gear to it hoping they will be usable for mixing/mastering afterwards.

But if you buy an Studio Reference from a famous maker, you're probably on the safe side, or you find someone who tested your IEM and compared it against a flat reference. Most of these companies (especially those who target musicians) test their gear with musicians and sell it to be used by musicians. The FitEar Studio Reference Series for example was tuned by a famous Mixing/Mastering Engineer, the same is true for the Canal Works CW-U77 and many others.

Musicians use them every day to make music, so you're on the safe side. That doesn't mean trust IEM for musicians in general. An drummer on stage usually wants a different sound than an Mixing/Mastering Engineer in the studio. So you have to check who is the intended target group.

Thanks for responding. Thought so, I’ll just roll off some of the top end that bothers me with the kz-s

 

[Vamp898]

@Vamp898 hey mate, your target is online on my graph tool: https://nk-tran.com/iegems-graphtool/?share=Vamp898_Target,Andromeda_2020

Your target feels like an old school western full BA set with thick mid and no distinct bass shelf. In fact, there is one IEM in my collection that match your target to a T

Thank you, thats pretty cool.

About the Andromeda, that doesn't surprise me as IEM originally tried to be as flat as absolutely possible as the target group were musicians. The IEM market have been invented by Westone followed by Shure (who worked closely in the beginning. The first Shure IEM was even made by Westone).

The consumer marked was second thought for most companies and so even those wo started to make IEM exclusively for the consumer market, designed their IEM based on what musicians used.

This is the Westone UM2 from 2008, an very famous IEM targeted only at musicians



This was before the IEC standard for IEM Measurements was even invented. They managed to do this with free field measurement and by listening to it and giving it to musicians to listen to this. So ""my"" Target is surprisingly old^^

 

[Vamp898]

Thanks for responding. Thought so, I’ll just roll off some of the top end that bothers me with the kz-s

Which KZ do you have?

 

[782369]

Which KZ do you have?

As16pro

 

[Vamp898]

Here is an AutoEQ (Wavelet) Profile for you, feel free to try it =)

 

[Heraldo Jones]

I have found the FATfreq Tsuru Universals which can also be a good fit for this target. The IEM has a bass switch but here is the measurement from Crinacle without it: