New computer, and new dilemma...
Oct 28, 2005 at 9:30 PM Post #16 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by blueworm
Install Linux
evil_smiley.gif



Sorry I missed this joke. Yep install Linux or another alternative with slightly less functionality, unplug your computer from the wall.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Linux administer but I would never have it at home!

Linux (or UNIX) security model is much worse than Windows. The reason why you don't see viruses or spyware is because it's not popular!

The same goes for the Mozilla Web browser on Windows. (this one will bit people very soon) If you do run Mozilla, make sure you keep it updated - just like you do with IE. The holes are there, they are just not exploited at the moment!
 
Oct 28, 2005 at 10:04 PM Post #17 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
Too be honest, Firewalls they are a waste of time (for home) for both viruses and spyware!
Why? If someone is going to attack you, guess which port they are going to use? Yep, port 80 (your web traffic) so it will most probably be open.



There is no service on that port unless you run a http server yourself! Closed port is almost no port.

Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
(If you were an attacker, which port would you use?)


No offense, but unless you are a total noob, you have blocked incoming traffic on all ports including TCP 80 except those needed. Open for outgoing traffic != open for incoming as long as you bother to set up fw rules yourself. And is there any tool suited for this role better on individual computer than a software fw? A good piece of that behind NAT is worth a lot.
cool.gif


Way to go:
Not using super-integrated-friendly-Norton crap, NATted network, software fw, good antivirus, every other day Windows update and Firefox/Opera. As for spyware, I visit malwarous webs with Opera frequently and haven't found (almost equals got) any spyware ever (says AdAware, SpyBot...). Interesting, huh?

And whenever an application asks for outgoing traffic without purpose, gets a ban. Simple.

Written on updated XP SP1 running Kerio, NOD32 (best unknown detection score ever) behind router NAT.
 
Oct 28, 2005 at 10:29 PM Post #18 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
I'm a Linux administer


Sorry for being sarcastic, but I pity your users
biggrin.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
...but I would never have it at home!


Me neither, no matter it's way more safe for now. I just miss there software I want to use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
Linux (or UNIX) security model is much worse than Windows.


Could you please clarify that? You mean chronically crippled NetBIOS, UPnP and File&Printer Share are better tools than ssh, scp and sftp? There is no security solution embedded in XP except so-so-firewall looking feeble compared even to plain iptables. You even have to be admin most of the time in Windows.

I am not against Windows, I happily use them, but implicit security sucks. But looking towards future to Longhorn, I am starting to think about switching to Mac
wink.gif


Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
The reason why you don't see viruses or spyware is because it's not popular!The same goes for the Mozilla Web browser on Windows. (this one will bit people very soon) If you do run Mozilla, make sure you keep it updated - just like you do with IE. The holes are there, they are just not exploited at the moment!


I must agree.
 
Oct 28, 2005 at 10:32 PM Post #19 of 29
An application-based firewall with deny-all as the basic policy is your best bet. These firewalls will generaly pop up a dialog asking your permission to allow an application to use the network when it detects it trying. If you don't recognize the application in question, just block it.
 
Oct 28, 2005 at 11:04 PM Post #20 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by rimmer
Sorry for being sarcastic, but I pity your users
biggrin.gif


Could you please clarify that? ... File&Printer Share are better tools ...



NFS, UNIX Printing is more secure than File&Printer Share on Windows?
Are you sure? So, when you mount an NFS share, exactly what "authentication" actually takes place? (I see you have an IP addresss that you've spoofed, come on in...)

As for the person who stated about my comment regarding Firewalls for home use, well wake up. Most of Windows holes are within IE. Firewalls are great for securing within a workplace, since you map out your working practices and implement your firewall rules based on the applications you are running, using dynamic firewall software that tracks the portmapper etc and punches through holes between the relavent hosts (not the static rules that exist on cheap home routers).
The internet is dynamic. The only real way to secure yourself is to block all traffic from there - BUT... the reason you got that fast connection to it is becase you plan to use it. Firewalls for home are not pratical, unless of course you are running a business from home. My time I spend at home is for play and not for administration. In this case a different security model is required.
 
Oct 29, 2005 at 2:41 AM Post #21 of 29
Whoa, this one woke up!

Great info, thanks guys.

The only time I get near IE is when I am forced to use it for some tasks at work. I have been using Firefox for quite a while, and Netscape before that.

Yes, there is no doubt that I am paranoid. I don't really have any information worth hiding, other than the usual identity/financial info. My problem is that I like to be in control of my own computer. Most software, including the OS, will call mom the first chance it gets. Mostly harmless, but I just get a kick out of messing with the system. In the past I have gone so far as to let them out with bogus information.

I still like the separate network idea, and I already have the hardware. The only thing that I would really miss is google earth (what a great toy) on the large monitors. We shall see.

I did clean everything off the Dell that I did not see a use for. Man, there must have been four different AOL tentacles in there. It did not go quietly, either.

As for Linux, I like it (and unix as well). Unfortunately about 5% of the software functionallity that I need is available on linux (and maybe 10% on the Mac).


gerG
 
Oct 29, 2005 at 7:58 PM Post #22 of 29
I hope you didn't take my joke too serious
smily_headphones1.gif



Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
NFS, UNIX Printing is more secure than File&Printer Share on Windows?
Are you sure? So, when you mount an NFS share, exactly what "authentication" actually takes place? (I see you have an IP addresss that you've spoofed, come on in...)



I emphasized using encryption (NFSv4, ssh tunnels...). You have at least the opportunity and it's upon to you to use it or not.
Well, what can you do about my IP? DDoS me?

Quote:

Originally Posted by springtide
As for the person who stated about my comment regarding Firewalls for home use, well wake up. Most of Windows holes are within IE. Firewalls are great for securing within a workplace, since you map out your working practices and implement your firewall rules based on the applications you are running, using dynamic firewall software that tracks the portmapper etc and punches through holes between the relavent hosts (not the static rules that exist on cheap home routers).

The internet is dynamic. The only real way to secure yourself is to block all traffic from there - BUT... the reason you got that fast connection to it is becase you plan to use it. Firewalls for home are not pratical, unless of course you are running a business from home. My time I spend at home is for play and not for administration. In this case a different security model is required.



What is the point of the first paragraph? That's exactly what sw fw are for and what I stated before as well as that I am not going to touch IE with my bare hands and any sane person should neither. What working practices do you mean? I use the same practices and applications both at home and at work.

Naturally I don't want cut the wire. Now tell me what is not practical about limiting connections to/FROM my pc apart from last updates, antivirus and sane surfing habits? What is the home security model you speak about? Leaving everything as it goes and praying
confused.gif
?
 
Oct 30, 2005 at 8:40 PM Post #23 of 29
OK, this is a long one....

Sorry about my last post. It was a bit of a late night rant without actually putting across my reasoning’s behind my statements.

What did I mean…

Firewalls and NAT (on your router):
Note that I shall use the word “spyware” for both spyware and malaware to save characters.
My first recommendation with regards to securing yourself at home as to buy yourself a router that supports NAT (Network Address Translation). The reason for this is that with NAT enabled (even with the Firewall turned off) your IP address is not routable from the WAN. Only connections that you have established will be allowed to pass through the NATed router (and only from the IP address you have established the connection with. This stops pretty much all attacked directly to your machine. Although there are advantaged with enabling the Firewall on your “broadband router”, since only “established connections” are allowed through anyway with NAT enabled, then the chances are even if you have the Firewall running, you’ve already opened that port to use anyway. The other reason for not recommending inexperienced users from configuring their Firewall, is that in many cases it’s easy to get things wrong.
E.g. Not knowing the differences between “Port Forwarding” and “Port Allowing”. (“Port Forwarding” effectively makes the port routable to the outside world)
Port 80 (usually used for Web traffic) is one of the biggest risks to your computer, since this is one of the ports your “programmer” knows will usually be enabled. So if to effectively secure yourself you need to only allow specified IP address ranges through the Firewall which is obviously an administration overhead.
I’ve run Zone Alarm and have left my PC on for days firstly putting my system in the DMZ (i.e. Fully exposed) and just with NAT enabled. In the DMZ I obviously get loads of hits where as with just NAT enabled I saw nothing. The thing is, there are so many systems out there fully exposed, then all you really have to do is make sure you are not the “lowest hanging fruit”. Think of this like putting a security alarm on your house (so that the intruder picks another house)

Virus Protection:
Not much to say about this one really apart from make sure it’s a good one with real time protection. Make sure it’s always up to date

System Updates:
Again, make sure your system is always up to date.

Local Firewalls:
Local Firewalls have additional functionality where they can lock down an application to specific ports to stop any unauthorised access by other applications (viruses, spyware etc). The problem with this that “programmers” are now aware of this so instead of trying to access the port directly (say to send personal information) they now hijack other applications which they know will be allowed access. Administering the Local Firewall is much easier than a “broadband router”, so if you were keen then you could enable the Firewall, and build up over time the external sites you allow access to for Web traffic. My biggest problem I have with this is that it not just me who uses the computer. I sat down with my wife and explained about the Firewall, what is was there for and how if she tried to access an address that we hasn’t been to before she just needed to “Allow Access” to that site. This however gets translated to “just press the OK button if it pops up”. Yes I could sit down with her again and explain this in more detail but does anyone think she’d really be interested and take in my comments?

Spyware tools:
The better Spyware tools on the market usually have two main functions. The first one is the usual Spyware scanner (search your hard drive for spyware etc) and the second “real-time protection” system. These real-time protection systems typically contain anti application hijacking systems that stop unauthorised access which is obviously more effective than the Local Firewalls. Unfortunately (usually) the free products only contain the Spyware scanners where as the subscription products offer the real-time protection. With most of the Spyware tools you are able to evaluate them before you buy. This I found really useful and some of the tools seem to produce prompts with “Allow or Deny” which was not ideal when other people uses the PC (I like the deny all) and I get called if something doesn’t work.
Another useful tip is to use a second Spyware tool for "scanning only" (so could be one of the free versions) as the different tools appear to pickup different threats (I haven't found one tool that was best for all).

Using Non-Microsoft Tools for security:
There are many people out there using non MS tools for Web browsing etc as they offer “better security”. There will be security holes in these tools, but they are not really at the top of the list to be exploited at the moment. If you do run these tools, just like you do with Windows, make sure you keep them up-to-date and secure them as best as possible.

Threats to your computer at home:
As with most of security, you have to way the risks to your system with the overhead to manage the security you implement and any reduced functionality that the implementation creates. What I mean by this is that we all know the likes of Active-X controls and the “likes” are security holes. But at the same these offer greater functionality and user experience of the internet that just basic HTML.

For most people, the main risk to their system is that personal bank information, and this risk could be access to files on your computer or by Spyware key-loggers (log key actions). As long as you are sat behind a NAT’ed broadband router you will stop all but the very persistent hackers on the internet. (A very, very persistent hacker could also compromise all but the best Firewalls) from hacking into your computer and real-time spyware and virus tools will protect yourself while you surf.
As always, it’s also important to “back up” your personal data. So, in the event that a virus does slip through the net (your Virus protection) and trashes your PC then you can recover your system. It’s also pretty handy if your hard disk fails!

Why this is different to the office:
In the office we have a team that manage our Firewall/Proxy full time. They are adding and removing rules for Web traffic on a daily basis. Security is a very high priority as if the business was compromised or a virus breaks out, this can cause millions of $$ to the company, and could even put it out of business. If you have data on your PC that is that critical, I recommend you don't keep in on a PC connected to the internet. Other less drastic ways to protect sensitive data is to “password protect” the data (encrypt).

The “issues” I have with Firewalls is that the term seems to be used by the likes of Microsoft etc as the ultimate security tool. In reality, as spyware and viruses are more of a threat, the dedicated Virus and Spyware Tools offer better protection (providing they offer real-time protection) with less administration overhead than Firewalls.
I believe that these are reasonable steps that even the most inexperienced is able to implement, with minimal setup overhead and on-going support.


I hope this explains my original comments. Any comments?

BTW – Yes, I know NFS v4 is secure, but unfortunately like may companies we still have legacy equipment to support within our environment which “those poor people I support” will not allow us to get rid of! (Yep, we have SunOS 4.1.4, HP-UX 10.20, RH 6.0). Were still stuck on NFS v2 on most of our systems as some of these OS’s fail to negotiate properly even with an NFSv3 filer.
 
Oct 30, 2005 at 9:56 PM Post #25 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by gerG
I just picked up a new PC. I was cleaning out some of the trash that Dell and Microsoft had installed on the hard drive, when I got fed up with all of the components trying to find a way to report in to the mother ship. I can firewall incoming pests, but I have never been successful in keeping things from getting out. Firewalls help, as does adaware. Still I have to allow a certain amount of duplex communication for my network to function. That is a sufficient path for resident software to ship out info. For reasons that I do not fully understand, this pisses me off!

Options:

1 - Quit being paranoid and get used to big brother looking out for my best interests.

2 - Set up a second network, internal only. The main machine gets access to the internal net, with the shared drives and music nodes (airport expresses in wds). Laptop can switch between intranet and internet access, but never both at once. Laptop has no critical files.

Something in between?

It would be a shame not having access to the web with the new machine, what with the dual 20" FP displays and all. Hence the dilemma.

Suggestions?


gerG



Ever heard of a Mac? They come with no secret budnled software and only good bundled software. Also, there is no spyware!
 
Oct 30, 2005 at 10:15 PM Post #26 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chef Medeski
Ever heard of a Mac? They come with no secret budnled software and only good bundled software. Also, there is no spyware!


Oh yes there is, it is called OSX. My Mac was the first to sneak through the firewall and upload personal info to Apple. That is really the incident that sensitized me to the whole issue. I think that Apple has learned far too much from MS, and I don't trust either of them.

My dilemma has been resolved for the time being. I am keeping the new PC off the network for now. It will be pretty easy to keep a separate system that has anything that I am worried about. The sneakernet is not perfect, but it is very easy to move files without a network. Plus, no network support required!

However, this thread has been very informative, and I will be cleaning up my PCs that do have access.


gerG
 
Oct 31, 2005 at 3:06 AM Post #27 of 29
Quote:

Originally Posted by gerG
I just picked up a new PC. I was cleaning out some of the trash that Dell and Microsoft had installed on the hard drive, when I got fed up with all of the components trying to find a way to report in to the mother ship. I can firewall incoming pests, but I have never been successful in keeping things from getting out. Firewalls help, as does adaware. Still I have to allow a certain amount of duplex communication for my network to function. That is a sufficient path for resident software to ship out info. For reasons that I do not fully understand, this pisses me off!

Options:

1 - Quit being paranoid and get used to big brother looking out for my best interests.

2 - Set up a second network, internal only. The main machine gets access to the internal net, with the shared drives and music nodes (airport expresses in wds). Laptop can switch between intranet and internet access, but never both at once. Laptop has no critical files.

Something in between?

It would be a shame not having access to the web with the new machine, what with the dual 20" FP displays and all. Hence the dilemma.

Suggestions?


gerG



reinstall windows, install a powerful firewall or buy a router, install anti virus, and install some spyware stuff like lavasoft adaware
most importantly
use your common sense when using the internet and doing installations.
 

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